The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Califan007 The Constipated]

12 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

I still and will always think Beck should have played the entire season for us in 2011. 

 

Would we have ended up with Andrew Luck?...

[Zim489]

3 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

Would we have ended up with Andrew Luck?...

We had an easier SoS compared to Indy 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

3 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

We had an easier SoS compared to Indy 

 

That means we would have picked ahead of them if we had the same record, right?

[Zim489]

Just now, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

That means we would have picked ahead of them if we had the same record, right?

Yup...

[Rufus T Firefly]

I understand Hurney wasn't here before the 2020 draft, but just in terms of the discussion of whether we should have taken Herbert there- If you're a new regime, you have the number 2 pick and you feel Herbert is going to be anything near what he ultimately became and you don't chose him because you have Haskins, you are clueless. The only reasons for such a decision are because a) you are catering to Danny and his infatuation with a guy who went to the same HS as his son. In which case you were taking a job knowing the worst owner in sports was going to micromanage you; or b) you were so bad at judging QBs that you thought Haskins was an answer worthy of nullifying any other considerations. 

 

Either way it's a clear sign of a bad decision-making process.

 

Again, my guess is that they didn't think that highly of Herbert, which I didn't really either. Perfectly understandable. But in terms of the discussion above, not taking Herbert because Haskins was here is not any kind of worthy excuse. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Supposedly they loved Burrow.  They liked Herbert over Tua but didn't love Herbert.  Hurney loved Herbert but he was at Carolina then. 

 

As far as Haskins goes, if Dan was a normal owner, you could discard him right from the jump if you didn't believe in him.  Alas the dude who overrode his scouting staff and coaches to take Haskins isn't that easy to override clearly since he already showed repeatedly during his tenure that he will override others let alone his coach overriding him.  

 

Still Rivera was able to bench Haskins early on and in turn release him which if I recall it was a recent record for how fast a first round draft pick at Qb was released -- fastest in 15 years or something like that. 

Edited February 18, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Rufus T Firefly]

If Rivera took the job with the understanding that Snyder wouldn't "let" him move on from Haskins, then he was a complete idiot for taking the job.

[Zim489]

3 minutes ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

If Rivera took the job with the understanding that Snyder wouldn't "let" him move on from Haskins, then he was a complete idiot for taking the job.

If Dan says that you should be doing everything possible to get yourself ready in 2021 to draft your QB than. Just dumb all around by ron even if you have the handcuffs on. 

[Cooleyfan1993]

Looks like it’s been taken off his twitter profile now. Either that, or Psuedo RG3 photoshopped “take command” into a screenshot of Russ’s twitter account to mess with us 😂

[Zim489]

3 minutes ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

Looks like it’s been taken off his twitter profile now. Either that, or Psuedo RG3 photoshopped “take command” into a screenshot of Russ’s twitter account to mess with us 😂

He photoshopped it 

[Rufus T Firefly]

1 minute ago, Zim489 said:

If Dan says that you should be doing everything possible to get yourself ready in 2021 to draft your QB than. Just dumb all around by ron even if you have the handcuffs on. 

Well, the real issue is that you're taking a job with the worst owner in North America (at least) under the condition that he is going to meddle in your decisions. And, I would suppose, you're doing so under the notion that the owner with a history of meddling in personnel decisions is going to not meddle for the rest of your tenure after he meddles in this key decision to start things off.

 

That would just be an indication of an almost comical level of naiveté and foolishness. 

[MrJL]

1 hour ago, Zim489 said:

I still and will always think Beck should have played the entire season for us in 2011. 

 

the NFL would have pulled our draft pick instead of just taking cap space

42 minutes ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

I understand Hurney wasn't here before the 2020 draft, but just in terms of the discussion of whether we should have taken Herbert there- If you're a new regime, you have the number 2 pick and you feel Herbert is going to be anything near what he ultimately became and you don't chose him because you have Haskins, you are clueless. The only reasons for such a decision are because a) you are catering to Danny and his infatuation with a guy who went to the same HS as his son. In which case you were taking a job knowing the worst owner in sports was going to micromanage you; or b) you were so bad at judging QBs that you thought Haskins was an answer worthy of nullifying any other considerations. 

 

Either way it's a clear sign of a bad decision-making process.

 

Again, my guess is that they didn't think that highly of Herbert, which I didn't really either. Perfectly understandable. But in terms of the discussion above, not taking Herbert because Haskins was here is not any kind of worthy excuse. 

 

Haskins had been picked by the owner

[Rufus T Firefly]

1 minute ago, MrJL said:

Haskins had been picked by the owner

[Burgold]

16 minutes ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

If Rivera took the job with the understanding that Snyder wouldn't "let" him move on from Haskins, then he was a complete idiot for taking the job.

Maybe. But it also wouldn't surprise me if Ron took the job knowing that he had a first round QB that was taken just one year earlier who by all accounts was considered talented, but very raw.  It is hard to give up on a first rounder sight unseen who's only had about half a season worth of games under his belt and actually did flash a little towards the end.

 

I remember most of ES was convinced that Haskins would wind up being the better QB between him and Daniel Jones (not that that wound up meaning all that much).

[The Consigliere]

2 hours ago, Darth Tater said:

Fields was NOT in trading distance and I still won't be surprised if he's a bust. Mac Jones was the only one. Truth is, while he does have potential, he only led a team in 2021 that was 3 plays better than the 2020 team.

Anyone is in trading distance, it just depends upon what you're willing to give up. Since Fields was the #2 QB and player on my board overall I would have given up far more than the Redskins FO was willing to give. As for whether he was a bust, I think several things are equally true:

 

#1: Fields played like crap for most of 2021.

 

#2: Matt Nagy failed to produce any quality seasons from former top QB prospects Mitch Trubisky and Justin Fields, and the entire reason he was brought in was that he was supposedly an offense and QB whisperer. 

 

#3: Justin Fields has been electric everywhere he's ever played since high school when he was neck and neck with Trevor Lawrence as the #1 overall recruit period (not just QB) in his high school class. He's been spectacular everywhere.

 

So yeah, I'm extremely, and let me underline it, EXTREMELY skeptical that Fields is a bust, and far more inclined to put most of Fields struggles on the fact that he was drafted buy a team that hasn't drafted and developed a franchise QB since either Jim McMahon forty years ago (who most wouldn't tag that way due to his injury shortened career) or Sid Freaking Luckman 90 years ago. When I see an organization and a coach that's failed utterly to develop QB's, I tend to put the preponderance of the criticism on them rather than the prospect, especially when the prospect has a CV as incredible as Fields, while the organizations CV, particularly with the QB position, is hot garbage (not to mention the HC). 

 

We'll see what happens, 2021 was not encouraging, but, if I was picking a landing spot for a QB, of all the QB landing spots in the '21 draft, the Chicago landing spot would be dead last for me. So Fields landing there was a disaster for his career: San Francisco, Jacksonville, New England, and even the freaking Jets would've been more appealing landing spots (not to mention the redskins either). 

[MrJL]

19 minutes ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

If Rivera took the job with the understanding that Snyder wouldn't "let" him move on from Haskins, then he was a complete idiot for taking the job.

 

he would have insisted Haskins get a chance.  Rivera hadn't been in the league scouting so he couldn't say anything against Haskins.  Plus we had Alex Smith's salary.  So you're dealing with two first round QB contracts, plus Alex Smith's contract.

 

2020 was an actively bad year for us to draft a QB

[The Consigliere]

2 hours ago, ExoDus84 said:

 

 

Trubisky is a bridge, alright.

 

 

Bryce Young Lets Go!!!!!

[Zim489]

7 minutes ago, MrJL said:

the NFL would have pulled our draft pick instead of just taking cap space

Look who the colts trotted out that year. Absolutely dreadful Kerry Collins at 39 

[RWJ]

People shouldn't get their hopes up for Wilson, Rodgers, Murray, Watson etc...  Just saying.  Let's hope RR doesn't go the Jimmy G and Carson W. route as well.  We need to stay far, far away from them.  Injuries and taking on contract money are the issues and even if they're released, I'd stay away from both of them.  

 

Reality is Trubisky/Winston, maybe Mariota FA vet and drafting a QB at #11.  That's reality.  If by some chance we get a team to agree to a mega deal with Wilson or Carr then we'd be fortunate and in a good place, but I think we can forget Rodgers, Murry and Watson for various reasons.  Google those reasons for those three.  

[NickyJ]

30 minutes ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

If Rivera took the job with the understanding that Snyder wouldn't "let" him move on from Haskins, then he was a complete idiot for taking the job.

Perhaps, but that's why Rivera is the patron saint of our team. He paid the price for Haskins to finally get cut from the team, and did it while making the playoffs too.

[mistertim]

With Haskins I think it'a also possible that Dan told Ron he'd leave it up to him and Ron actually believed that Haskins could end up being a good QB. Remember this was when COVID caused all in person team activities ot be cancelled and there were indications that Haskins had taken the offseason seriously as far as getting better and being more prepared and committed.

 

Now, obviously that all turned out to be smoke and mirrors, but it's possible that Ron believed Haskins was truly making progress and thought he should get a shot. Combine that with the apparent fact that the coaching staff loved Burrow but didn't love any of the other guys, then taking Chase over Herbert would make sense.

 

With Herbert it's all 20/20 hindsight though, because Burrow was the only guy in that class who was considered a true blue chip upper echelon prospect. Herbert was considered talented but there were questions about his accuracy and decision making and whether his game would translate into the NFL, and Tua was talented but had huge injury red flags.

[Rufus T Firefly]

10 minutes ago, MrJL said:

 

he would have insisted Haskins get a chance.  Rivera hadn't been in the league scouting so he couldn't say anything against Haskins.  Plus we had Alex Smith's salary.  So you're dealing with two first round QB contracts, plus Alex Smith's contract.

 

2020 was an actively bad year for us to draft a QB

There is little (to zero) doubt you could have moved Haskins' contract that year, and even if you couldn't his cap hits were around 3.5 mil per year. Smith was coming off a near death experience and was clearly a year form being cut. If you think Herbert is  a franchise QB and you pass on him for those reasons, you have no business running an NFL Front Office. 

 

Nor do you have any if you were taking a job under the condition of letting Snyder dictate who your QB has to be, even if 'for only one year'.

[The Consigliere]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Apples to oranges.  Clausen was a mid 2nd round pick.  That would be like saying we can't take a QB in 2023 because we took Ridder in the mid 2nd.  

 

The Cardinals had the first pick in the draft in 2019.  Murray looked like a can't miss prospect.  Rosen got off to a rough start including with questions about his work ethic.

 

Ironically its come out that they would have taken Burrow if they had the first pick in the draft.  I gather they talked Dan into that.  So apples to apples to the Cardinals they would have done exactly the same thing that you are criticizing them for not doing. Apparently they weren't high enough on Herbert to go through the trouble of convincing Dan to let go of his guy.

 

They only reason why I give you a hard time about Rosen has nothing to do about you getting it wrong with him but because of reminding you how emotionally you sold your point about him and did so with total convinction where anyone who sees things different is wildly wrong.   Like its binary cut and dry decision with no nuance or context that matters to the discussion. 

 

You are doing it here again IMO emotionally.  It's hard for me to believe that as a fan for this team for this long that you think its a piece of cake for a new coach to talk Dan into discarding his QB right from the jump.    Heck the last teacher's pet Qb that Dan had, RG3, Jay couldn't even talk Dan out of keeping him on the bench in 2014 after coming back from his injury that season -- that's 2 years deep into bad play from RG3 and Dan's still hanging on.  And you think Ron can get Dan to move on from Haskins from the jump just like that?

 

 

Don't know.  Just know they wanted a ton of picks and at least one major player.  I gather if they thought that Fields was Burrow level good, they'd have pulled the trigger.  I like Fields better than most but he hasn't exactly lit the world on fire his rookie season -- so the outrage about this is a bit premature, lets see how it plays out.  A Bears client of mine would laugh at this discussion, he already thinks Fields is a bust.  I don't think he will bust.  i like Fields but I am reserved on the idea that they missed out on a lifetime opportunity and there was no price too big for him.  Will see.

 

Too bad they couldn't trade within the NFC East with the Giants but apparently Mara and Dan hate each other.

 

 

Much of what you mentioned happened before this regime.  Bruce Allen was a moron. 

 

As far as Rivera, he's basically screaming that this is a QB driven league.   He clearly gets it.  He swung for Fields, swung for Stafford and missed.  Based on reports, they would have had to signficantly outbid the Rams for Stafford to get him, I gather then three #1 picks because they wanted to send Stafford to where he wanted to go.

 

If it makes you feel better they seem willing to give up three 1's and change for name that top 10 QB.  You said they don't get the value of a QB.   The bigger concern with some here is do they have any limits right now as to what aren't they willing to pay.  They basically have a help wanted ad out right now saying we will outbid any team for a QB. 

Clausen had a 1st round grade going into his final year in college so he had pedigree. His stock fell to 1st/2nd round turn pick. It's not apples and oranges to me as Clausen was basically a 1st rounder on body of work that fell to 2nd with an iffy final year (damn early 2nd as well), and Haskins was elevated due a 1 and done great single year at a flagship program beyond where he was graded (mid 2nd to early 3rd was what I heard earlier). 

 

Now as for Rosen, it is kind of weird you say that because I didn't actually have Rosen #1 in that class, I ended up Baker as my #1 (you can tell by the fact that I took Baker on multiple Dynasty Superflex teams. Indeed I tend to flip flop over Darnold and Rosen, it was a struggle for me. I picked Lamar Jackson on one where he was inexplicably still available in the late 1st. I avoided Josh Allen except in an RSO league where he was still there in the early 3rd in a 10 team league (everyone hated him because of his lack of accuracy). It's not an emotional viewpoint.

 

Its pure logic. WIth the Dan, I'd just leave, I'd make the point, and if he was dead set on his guy, I'm out. You're working for a garbage organization and everyone league wide knows it, I very much doubt other teams would hold against you a conflict with that dolt snyder. Yes, easy for me to say, but is it really worth it to not only work for Snyder, but be submarined by his idiocy and have his stupidity smeared on you if you give in? Screw that. Make your case, take your guy and if he fires you, so be it, or you can resign. Life is way too short to live under that kind of thumb. 

 

As to the outrage about Fields being out of place because he had a crappy first year, I don't agree, I'm about process. I can forgive good process that results in a bust. People make fun of busts all the time, but when a prospect has all the boxes ticked and fails anyway, but you did the scouting and evaluation, and the player just couldn't make the leap. In my view, that's good process and in the long run you win with good process. What I hate, and yeah I get emotional about it because for me, forgiving misses w/good process is easy, forgiving bad process stupdiity like our LB pick last year? That's ignoring all the research and data that's gone into pulling back the confusion over what represents value and what doesn't in drafts in general and just getting your guy and ignoring value and innumerable studies that have gone down to help make the process simpler, easier, more efficient and efficacious. Instead, no, our LB's, suck, lets get a good LB. It's mindnumbingly stupid dinosaur decision making to me. Betting the house on a QB prospect with a great CV? I can get behind that because it pays off either way. A big hit and your set, a big miss, and by the time you figure the miss out, you have bottomed out and have your 1st rounders back (usually it takes 2-3 years to lock in an evaluation on a QB unless you've drafted a real mega clown like Haskins). 

 

That's my deal. I don't have all the answers with prospects, I just have the process, that's it. At this point I have no clue which QB will hit and which won't, I'm just much better with RB's, and WR's than QB's other than sniffing out definitive busts (and even then, I miss on Rosen's as you mention, and hell, that whole freaking class I basically had backwards other than Baker (who was #3, and I had #1). 

[Rufus T Firefly]

7 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

Perhaps, but that's why Rivera is the patron saint of our team. He paid the price for Haskins to finally get cut from the team, and did it while making the playoffs too.

Oooh. He bypassed a chance to get a Franchise QB and then won enough games to ensure he wouldn't have a chance to draft another one? Hooray for him then!

 

[Zim489]

If fields is available I’m trading 11 immediately for him