All things defense

[Koolblue13]

3 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

^^this 100% triggers me so much. It makes NO sense. Watch every other team in the league, when they bring the house the CBs play tight up to buy that extra second or two to get to the QB. You either get a sack or you force a bad throw into tight coverage for a potential pick. Yeah if they pick it up you might get shredded downfield, but for F sakes we get shredded downfield anyway.

I feel like this "corners play off too much" line from fans generally only comes from watching what Washington does. Because Every single team does it. 

3 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

As usual he got confused and went to double team the outside guy with I believe St. Juste instead of running with St. Brown.

It was hard to tell who was assigned what on that play. It was zone and one of our CBs missed it.

[Redwards]

2 hours ago, skinny21 said:

Not that I know much about football, but I’d like to see Del Rio use some creativity with Toney and Davis (along with our SS/BN) - mix up who rushes, covers the flat, blitzes, spies the qb, etc.  I like JSW, but like Toohill, I think he’s just an average rusher.  Toney I think offers at least a bit more flexibility with his movement ability (even if the other guys are a bit more refined and/or stronger at the point of attack).

The overall problem with that though, IMHO, is that "creativity" and "Jack del Rio" don't quite go together.  It's, I don't know...kinda like...oil and water, if you will.  

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Thinking Skins]

I'm on team calm down right now. One thing I'm frustrated about is the lack of LB depth. I like the moves we've made at CB, S, DE and even DT with letting go of Settle and Matt I. and bringing in young guys. At all these positions we can see an infusion of youth in the backups and youth brings potential. 

 

But at LB we don't see that. We have Milo but he's not getting any playing time. Davis is young. Holcomb is kinda young. But I wanted some thing guys like Forrest to be guys who maybe could look ok in camp then play on instincts or just make plays. I'm thinking Antonio Pierce who was an UDFA who moved from outside to inside and looked real good there and helped NYG to their SBs. The addition of Bostic and Mayo disappoint me because it goes against that whole philosophy. And it's not like they're aren't young guys out there. They're are guys who we could have gotten at the same time we got our CBs. 

 

But I still think that WJ3 and BSJ got l for example are learning from each other and learning to play together. I don't expect that many whiffs in a game in week 6. They're ironing a lot of things out right now. 

[NoCalMike]

The problem with the linebacking unit is they lack the one blue chipper that changes the entire squad. I remember when the Packers drafted AJ Hawk and he was close to being labeled a bust, until Clay Matthews was drafted, and he was so good he transformed the play of everyone around him.  That is what the defense needs.   Chase Young potentially can/will be that for the D-line.  Jamin Davis, I still think is worth continuing to develop, but what they need is either a can't miss drafted stud or to bring in a veteran still in their prime that transforms the unit.  Most team don't have great or even very good players at every single position, that expectation is not realistic, however each individual group on the field should have 1 player that stands out.

[Thinking Skins]

2 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

The problem with the linebacking unit is they lack the one blue chipper that changes the entire squad. I remember when the Packers drafted AJ Hawk and he was close to being labeled a bust, until Clay Matthews was drafted, and he was so good he transformed the play of everyone around him.  That is what the defense needs.   Chase Young potentially can/will be that for the D-line.  Jamin Davis, I still think is worth continuing to develop, but what they need is either a can't miss drafted stud or to bring in a veteran still in their prime that transforms the unit.  Most team don't have great or even very good players at every single position, that expectation is not realistic, however each individual group on the field should have 1 player that stands out.

I agree with this but I think a lot of people are wanting instant ramen right now. I know this team has sucked for going on 20 years but that's not all on Ron. We're finally looking into building through the draft and developing players. That's how you find the Terry and the guys on the ol, and the TEs and the Ss. But it's not overnight. I think if we had Danny playing slot, we don't make those mistakes Sunday. But Danny's ceiling is lower than BSJ so we kinda have to go through the mud a bit with this growing experience as they gel. 

 

One thing I'm frustrated about is scheme wise, I don't think the juice is worth the squeeze. They're confused and spend 6-12 weeks learning a system that's basic for offenses to exploit. If it's really based on our front 4 winning then it's not a good system. And if a man cover guy can't just follow his guy, it's s bad scheme. 

[Leonard Washington]

The team should have made a run at Wagner. Wagner would have been productive and elevated the linebackers out of pure experience.
 

I doubt he was interested for multiple reasons. 

[NoCalMike]

3 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

I agree with this but I think a lot of people are wanting instant ramen right now. I know this team has sucked for going on 20 years but that's not all on Ron. We're finally looking into building through the draft and developing players. That's how you find the Terry and the guys on the ol, and the TEs and the Ss. But it's not overnight. I think if we had Danny playing slot, we don't make those mistakes Sunday. But Danny's ceiling is lower than BSJ so we kinda have to go through the mud a bit with this growing experience as they gel. 

 

One thing I'm frustrated about is scheme wise, I don't think the juice is worth the squeeze. They're confused and spend 6-12 weeks learning a system that's basic for offenses to exploit. If it's really based on our front 4 winning then it's not a good system. And if a man cover guy can't just follow his guy, it's s bad scheme. 

 

 

I will say this about the whole "confused" thing;  what is it that is so confusing?  Cover 2 & Cover 3 zone coverage schemes are a norm across the NFL, yeah?  I know every coordinator runs their own version with some of their own wrinkles in there, but generally speaking zone coverage concepts are not this crazy new thing or some kind of holy grail scheme that JDR concocted in a laboratory.   How is this Year 3 and after so many completions our entire secondary is looking at each other with their hands in the air.   I for sure have not been impressed with JDR as a coordinator, but I also don't get why the players are so confused with the concepts of the scheme. 

[RandyHolt]

11 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

^^this 100% triggers me so much. It makes NO sense. Watch every other team in the league, when they bring the house the CBs play tight up to buy that extra second or two to get to the QB. You either get a sack or you force a bad throw into tight coverage for a potential pick. Yeah if they pick it up you might get shredded downfield, but for F sakes we get shredded downfield anyway.

Misery loves company. It kills me to see soft coverage. The real kick in the coconuts is our cushion DBs still get gashed but more via long slow death back breaking time consuming exhausting demoralizingly painful to watch drives. When we finally get the ball back in a blowout someone chimes in we can't run hurryup because our soft D is gassed. Triggered indeed. You know what you bring the farm play tight man and give up a 80 yd to pass, at least the D isn't gassed and offense ICE cold.

[RandyHolt]

8 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

I feel like this "corners play off too much" line from fans generally only comes from watching what Washington does. Because Every single team does it. 

It was hard to tell who was assigned what on that play. It was zone and one of our CBs missed it.

 

The difference is our soft DBs fail and WRs are still wide open. Blown coverages - confusion.  Tight man - there is far far less thinking and just playing. I think it was the famous Maverick who once said "if you think you're dead".  JDR clearly has the back 7 over thinking.

 

Watch the bills they have their defense across the board on the LOS attacking. I call bunk none of our players can do that while all of theirs can. We have stressed over thinking players 10 yards downfield scared of blowing their assignments which is a huge swath of field vs the buffalo guys who are just staying in their oppositions face.

Edited September 21, 2022 by RandyHolt

[Commander Wolffe]

Don't care to resign anyone on the defensive side of the ball, maybe Curl.

 

New coordinator, staff, scheme and new players for next year. Blow it all up. 

 

 

[Berggy9598]

Sorry if this stat has been posted, but the Lions gained 227 yards on 6 plays, and 198 in the other 55 they ran. How is that real life? 

[Thinking Skins]

3 hours ago, Berggy9598 said:

Sorry if this stat has been posted, but the Lions gained 227 yards on 6 plays, and 198 in the other 55 they ran. How is that real life? 

This is what ROn was talkins about. Its not that we were good otherwise but those 6 plays realy distort things and make us look worse

[IrepDC]

9 hours ago, NoCalMike said:

The problem with the linebacking unit is they lack the one blue chipper that changes the entire squad. I remember when the Packers drafted AJ Hawk and he was close to being labeled a bust, until Clay Matthews was drafted, and he was so good he transformed the play of everyone around him.  That is what the defense needs.   Chase Young potentially can/will be that for the D-line.  Jamin Davis, I still think is worth continuing to develop, but what they need is either a can't miss drafted stud or to bring in a veteran still in their prime that transforms the unit.  Most team don't have great or even very good players at every single position, that expectation is not realistic, however each individual group on the field should have 1 player that stands out.

I agree with this. Jamin was never going to be Batman of any LB group. I always touted him as a very athletic 2nd LB, but he was never supposed to be a top dog. Parsons was the LB who I touted as the top dog in that class, but we never had a chance at him- after Philly gave us the win and playoff birth. Davis was always going to need another guy to push/lead him.

[sebestian]

At the end of the day that’s not how you handle that situation and it will only further reflect that RR feels the pressure in my opinion to start winning. 
 

He is a lovable guy, RR that is. 
 

Those kind of comments, made through the media, don’t work anymore. 
 

RR should have taken him aside and handle it privately. 
 

That’s how it is done. I’ll love Parcells, but that style is done. 
 

Look at Campbell he’s tough, but the players know he loves them, and that will make anyone try and work hard for that type of guy. 
 

JMO

[Thinking Skins]

9 hours ago, NoCalMike said:

 

 

I will say this about the whole "confused" thing;  what is it that is so confusing?  Cover 2 & Cover 3 zone coverage schemes are a norm across the NFL, yeah?  I know every coordinator runs their own version with some of their own wrinkles in there, but generally speaking zone coverage concepts are not this crazy new thing or some kind of holy grail scheme that JDR concocted in a laboratory.   How is this Year 3 and after so many completions our entire secondary is looking at each other with their hands in the air.   I for sure have not been impressed with JDR as a coordinator, but I also don't get why the players are so confused with the concepts of the scheme. 

I get this and I'm confused too. Part of me thinks that the scheme conflicts with instincts. Like WJ3 for example, its a question of when to pass coverage vs when to stay on your guy. And when you pass, both guys have to agree to pass or its a screw up. If players are also wondering why am I doing this instead of just staying on my guy, then it can further the confusion. 

 

One thing that has been a staple here since the 80s was us playing man defense. That has changed since what Shanahan? But in the 90s it was Green and whoever playing Man, then in the 2000s it was Green/Bailey/Smoot/Sanders/Springs/Hall all who were good man corner guys. It makes it so much easier to build your defense when you have guys who can play man because you can blitz more. Those blitzes are not always successful but it helps the defense. I saw the cover 2 and Tampa 2 and Cover 3 defenses start to take over the league in other cities and never really paid attention to it because I knew we mainly played man. 

 

Than things changed. Now we're set in playing 6 yards off on 3rd and 5 and just getting beat. I don't like it and I don't understand it. 

[Redwards]

3 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

This is what ROn was talkins about. Its not that we were good otherwise but those 6 plays realy distort things and make us look worse

But we gave up those six plays.  THAT'S what makes us bad.  

 

Hell, any team on either side of the ball can say, "If we didn't give up x amount of terrible plays, it's a different game or we look better."  

 

Does't work that way in sports.  You are what you put out there.  

[Thinking Skins]

Just now, Redwards said:

But we gave up those six plays.  THAT'S what makes us bad.  

 

Hell, any team on either side of the ball can say, "If we didn't give up x amount of terrible plays, it's a different game or we look better."  

 

Does't work that way in sports.  You are what you put out there.  

The point is though that those things are correctable. Its not like the defense was getting marched on every play. Its early in the season and we're one of the youngest teams in the league. We're making young mistakes right now that will hopefully be corrected by mid season. 

 

What Ron and my point is, is that each of these 6 plays were when a different unit aka a different player made a mistake. So its not like there is one person who you replace and say boom things are fixed. Its that each unit made one critical mistake. How often does that happen? How many dominoes do you need to align again for that fall down play to happen again. Davis should have had a sack and I'm glad we blitzed him that play. But he found an open man in the zone. Why was he open? a mistake. Then he fell and before we could get to him he was up and slicing and dicing like he does. But thats a mistake that's correctable. They'll look at film and hopefully it won't happen again. 

 

They say that failure is life's best teacher. So these guys have this last game on film to show that they were in the wrong place. Now we see how its fixed.

[Redwards]

36 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

The point is though that those things are correctable. Its not like the defense was getting marched on every play. Its early in the season and we're one of the youngest teams in the league. We're making young mistakes right now that will hopefully be corrected by mid season. 

 

What Ron and my point is, is that each of these 6 plays were when a different unit aka a different player made a mistake. So its not like there is one person who you replace and say boom things are fixed. Its that each unit made one critical mistake. How often does that happen? How many dominoes do you need to align again for that fall down play to happen again. Davis should have had a sack and I'm glad we blitzed him that play. But he found an open man in the zone. Why was he open? a mistake. Then he fell and before we could get to him he was up and slicing and dicing like he does. But thats a mistake that's correctable. They'll look at film and hopefully it won't happen again. 

 

They say that failure is life's best teacher. So these guys have this last game on film to show that they were in the wrong place. Now we see how its fixed.

I hear what you're saying.

 

They were just talking about this yesterday on JP's podcast.  When it's one guy here, one guy there, THAT'S a coaching issue.  It's always someone.  We've heard for 30 years that "Those things are correctable.  That's the good thing."  But they don't get corrected.

 

And I don't give them a pass in Year 3 because of youth AT ALL.  Hell, when Ron came here he talked about all the young talent on defense that had him really excited.  It was a big factor in him coming here.  Those players are not young anymore.  And we have plenty of veterans on this defense where "youth" is absolutely not an excuse.  This is the same damn defense as last year in terms of scheme and players.  Those players, we were assured all offseason were now used to working together and all on the same page and communicating in stellar fashion.  

 

So, for me - and everyone has their own opinion, which I sincerely respect - there are ZERO excuses.  Ron himself even said (correctly) that this year is the year for a major step up.  It has to happen.  This mess was created by the hubris of Ron and JDR, who did next to nothing to upgrade this defense.   Everyone could see this coming, and talked about it, except those two.  I give them absolutely no quarter this year.   None.  That's just where I am, but hey, if you are in a different place there, more power to you.  It's just opinions.  👍

Edited September 21, 2022 by Redwards

[samy316]

46 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

The point is though that those things are correctable. Its not like the defense was getting marched on every play. Its early in the season and we're one of the youngest teams in the league. We're making young mistakes right now that will hopefully be corrected by mid season. 

 

What Ron and my point is, is that each of these 6 plays were when a different unit aka a different player made a mistake. So its not like there is one person who you replace and say boom things are fixed. Its that each unit made one critical mistake. How often does that happen? How many dominoes do you need to align again for that fall down play to happen again. Davis should have had a sack and I'm glad we blitzed him that play. But he found an open man in the zone. Why was he open? a mistake. Then he fell and before we could get to him he was up and slicing and dicing like he does. But thats a mistake that's correctable. They'll look at film and hopefully it won't happen again. 

 

They say that failure is life's best teacher. So these guys have this last game on film to show that they were in the wrong place. Now we see how its fixed.

Sorry, I don’t buy this at all.  There’s absolutely no indication that this coaching staff is smart enough or capable enough to fix there mistakes.  I’m completely out on Rivera & Del-Rio.  They’re both below average coaches, who are archaic, and completely out of touch with today’s modern NFL.  Rivera is more Jeff Fisher than he is Marvin Lewis.  This will most likely be his 9th losing season as a head coach out of 12 seasons.  Very Jeff Fisher like.

Edited September 21, 2022 by samy316

[Thinking Skins]

2 minutes ago, Redwards said:

I hear what you're saying.

 

They were just talking about this yesterday on JP's podcast.  When it's one guy here, one guy there, THAT'S a coaching issue.  It's always someone.  We've heard for 30 years that "Those things are correctable.  That's the good thing."  But they don't get corrected.

 

And I don't give them a pass in Year 3 because of youth AT ALL.  Hell, when Ron came here he talked about all the young talent on defense that had him really excited.  It was a big factor in him coming here.  Those players are not young anymore.  And we have plenty of veterans on this defense where "youth" is absolutely not an excuse.  This is the same damn defense as last year in terms of scheme and players.  Those players, we were assured all offseason were now used to working together and all on the same page and communicating in stellar fashion.  

 

So, for me - and everyone has their own opinion, which I sincerely respect - there are ZERO excuses.  Ron himself even said (correctly) that this year is the year for a major step up.  It has to happen.  This mess was created by the hubris of Ron and JDR, who did next to nothing to upgrade this defense.   Everyone could see the coming except those two.  I give them absolutely no quarter this year.   None.  That's just where I am, but hey, if you are in a different place there, more power to you.  It's just opinions.  👍

I hear this and i kinda agree but the same thing is that they're human. Sometimes they get fooled. With age comes wisdom but a slower body. So a guy like Bostic may not be fooled as much by Swift but Bostic couldn't catch swift. Some of those young players who showed potential are hurt, Curl - and he would have been impactful. Forrest replaced Curl and was fooled. He still did some good but wasn't nearly as dominant. BSJ looked OK (had good PFF grade) but there is a question on if he did the right thing staying on his guy when WJ3 tried to switch. I think WJ3 was right and BSJ was supposed to switch but maybe I'm wrong. There was another screen to Swift that Goff barely got off and threw it inaccurately almost into Holcomb's hands, but Holcomb couldn't make the catch. He catches that and he's gone for 6. Thats a mistake. 

 

The lions punted 5 times and had 2 turnovers on downs. We held them to FGs two more times, of of those was on a short field. This wasn't the worse defense of all time like some are acting. We as a team played the worse half of football in some time, but that half started off pretty good by the defense. They didn't hold up but I think people are overreacting to the loss.

2 minutes ago, samy316 said:

Sorry, I don’t buy this at all.  There’s absolutely no indication that this coaching staff is smart enough or capable enough to fix there mistakes.  I’m completely out on Rivera & Del-Rio.  They’re both below average coaches, who are archaic, and completely out of touch with today’s modern NFL.  Rivera is more Jeff Fisher than he is Marvin Lewis.  This will most likely be his 9th losing season as a head coach out of 12 seasons.  Very Jeff Fisher like.

They changed things in 2020 and 2021. 2020 Collins went down, and was replaced by Everett and Reaves and suddenly we had a defense. Last year it was after a 2-6 start then suddenly we start blitzing Collins more and we can stay in games. They may take too long to do what we all know they should (and I'm saying they should be blitzing Davis more he has looked good on blitzes in both games), but they have adjusted in both seasons so far and I think they will this season too. 

[IrepDC]

Cole Holcomb is the single LB with a 5 man front. He should be mirroring the RB on any run play with all OL occupied. Instead:

 

1. He appears he lined up splitting the RB with outside leverage.

2. He then takes the ugliest hop to the right read step I've ever seen. Whoever taught him that should be fired. If he made it up, never do that again.

3. The RB does a Counter motion so Holcomb has outside leverage on him. If he reads the flow of traffic, he should be shooting here.

4. Instead of shooting, Holcomb sits on his heels still not realizing where the run is going.

5. The RB starts to cross Holcomb's face to get outside leverage.

6. Holcomb is still chopping his feet, hasn't mirrores the RB at all, lost outside leverage, still wondering where the run is going.

7. RB breaks leverage and is running past Holcomb into our secondary(Luckily St. Juste made a few nice tackles this game).

8. Holcomb finally realizes where the play is going and stumbles to watch the RB run past him.

 

Rotational guy. Situational guy. Special teams captain. Fill out the final few spots of your roster guy. Not the general of any competitive defense.

[Zim489]

 

 

The way Ron and Co attacked the LB position is one of the most perplexing Roster decisions I have seen in a long time. Everyone and their mother saw LB as an issue. Regardless of their view on the position of LB in modern football (which they are wrong about) I dont know how you dont throw any assets at it. There was 3-4 LB options staring them in the face with their second pick to just take a run stuffing DT after letting a decent one walk to not even get more snaps in the place hes going to. 

 

Just mind numbingly bad decisions

[abdcskins]

21 hours ago, skins4eva said:

 

Agreed.  I love Allen.  He's a real professional.  He's not going to say anything remotely controversial.

 

Well...he did say something remotely controversial. He said he wanted to have dinner with Adolf Hitler and Michael Jackson, and called Hitler a military genius. 

 

Aside from that one face palm moment, I agree that he seems like a genuinely good guy and a leader. He works hard.

[SpacePenguin]

15 minutes ago, abdcskins said:

 

He said he wanted to have dinner with Adolf Hitler and Michael Jackson.

 

 

 

Sounds like my kinda dinner party.

 

(I don't bother with coach/player interviews so this is news to me 😂)