Biden/Harris Legislative/Policy Discussions - Now with a Republican House starting 2023

[Larry]

17 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

It’s forcing them to choose between how committed they are to stopping the min wage simply because of the way it is being passed through

 

Perhaps they see it as "preventing the filibuster from being eliminated, as a practical matter"?  

 

[Hersh]

25 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

Granted, I'm pulling numbers out of my ***.  

 

But I'll note.  I live in a small college town.  Rent on a 1BR here in town has gone from $450, to $750, over the last 3-4 years.  Simply because the college students coming to town can afford to pay more.  There's luxury apartment buildings going up all over town.  But the rent on the old, pre-existing buildings, have gone from $450 to $750.  Simply because they can.  

 

I think we all agree that if MW goes up, then everybody at the bottom end of the wage scale will see their income go up.  Well, when that happens, the market for apartments will support a rent increase.  

 

 

And my friend is on SS Disability.  And her income has not changed one dollar over the last 5 years.  Because the items in the Consumer Price Index say that inflation has been zero.  

 

 

 

I don't think raising the minimum wage is going to have the impact you think it might on housing. In your own example, that price changed because of supply and demand. Affordable housing is a huge problem all over the country and that's been the case with the federal minimum wage remaining low AF. 

[Larry]

1 minute ago, Hersh said:

 

I don't think raising the minimum wage is going to have the impact you think it might on housing. In your own example, that price changed because of supply and demand. Affordable housing is a huge problem all over the country and that's been the case with the federal minimum wage remaining low AF. 

 

And when "everybody at the bottom end of the wage scale" gets a big pay raise, what do you figure happens to the demand side of the apartment market?  

 

Isn't that pretty much the customer base, for the apartment market?  

[Hersh]

Just now, Larry said:

 

And when "everybody at the bottom end of the wage scale" gets a big pay raise, what do you figure happens to the demand side of the apartment market?  

 

Isn't that pretty much the customer base, for the apartment market?  

 

You mean the big raise that equates to making $31K for a year IF working full-time? This is not a big raise that makes people wealthy. The apartment market varies a lot these days. Raleigh has a huge problem cause all that's being built is luxury apartments but not everyone works full time and cost of living expenses means people aren't just going to switch apartments to pay so they can spend more. 

[88Comrade2000]

If midterms follows historical paterns; the Dems will suffer major losses in 22. Considering how close things are now; those losses would mean the Trump party regains control.

 

So, the Dems probably have only 2 years to enact their agenda. So, whatever they need to do; to get their agenda passed, do it.

 

While getting rid of the filibuster is ideal; they don't have the votes to do that. Why can't they change the threshold to end the filibuster. It's 60 now, lower it. You would want to lower it to 50 ideally, but that won't happen. So, why not tie the threshold to the number of the majority.  Say the majority has 55 seats, tie the threshold to that. Right now, it would be 50, since they are tied.  This would be a temporary solution,  until you have the votes to get rid of the filibuster.

[Llevron]

Yall know that 15 bucks an hour is only 31k a year if you are lucky enough to get 40 hours a week? 

 

Thats madness. Maybe im jaded but how do you even live on that? 

[goskins10]

49 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

Granted, I'm pulling numbers out of my ***.  

 

But I'll note.  I live in a small college town.  Rent on a 1BR here in town has gone from $450, to $750, over the last 3-4 years.  Simply because the college students coming to town can afford to pay more.  There's luxury apartment buildings going up all over town.  But the rent on the old, pre-existing buildings, have gone from $450 to $750.  Simply because they can.  

 

I think we all agree that if MW goes up, then everybody at the bottom end of the wage scale will see their income go up.  Well, when that happens, the market for apartments will support a rent increase.  

 

I think this is a bit anecdotal. I believe what you are saying, just that it is not everywhere. I would be willing to bet that there were other factors in the increase for rent. It sounds like nicer buildings and nicer apartments. So yes, the market will drive what is possible. It also makes it more important that those on the lower end of the wages keep up, hence the minimum wage increase 🙂  

 

49 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

 

And my friend is on SS Disability.  And her income has not changed one dollar over the last 5 years.  Because the items in the Consumer Price Index say that inflation has been zero.  

 

 

In fairness inflation has been fairly low (see below). I did also state that I agree it does not always keep up so not saying it's fair. But that is not due to minimum wage increase. In fact when minimum wage does go up, you are right that there will be some inflation. That should trigger COLA increases. But ultimately, that is a problem with the COLA process for SS, not whether there is a rise in the MW.   

 

Interesting conversation. Thanks for the thoughts. 

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

2 minutes ago, Llevron said:

Yall know that 15 bucks an hour is only 31k a year if you are lucky enough to get 40 hours a week? 

 

Thats madness. Maybe im jaded but how do you even live on that? 

The opposing argument is that 'you're not supposed to live on that', those jobs are for young people. 

 

People really walking around believing that there are enough good jobs for everyone that wants one.  As if all older people that work min. wage jobs only do so because they want to and have no desire to do more.

[goskins10]

5 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

The opposing argument is that 'you're not supposed to live on that', those jobs are for young people. 

 

People really walking around believing that there are enough good jobs for everyone that wants one.  As if all older people that work min. wage jobs only do so because they want to and have no desire to do more.

 

Not directed at you as I am likely preaching to the choir, but if we had universal health care more older workers would retire sooner opening up those jobs for younger people. 

[tshile]

Just a general comment based on what I’ve seen all over the place (not here per se)

 

im not a fan of the Biden criticism from the left to date. 
 

I cannot think of a more difficult transition for a new president in my lifetime. Pandemic, foreign policy/trade disaster, the social strife/insurrection situation, and the sheer work needed to rebuild all our institutions that were gutted or staffed with people that have intents that run counter to the mission statement of the agency....

 

I mean... the man is trying to clean up a 4 year ****show. 
 

for all the belly aching over what he hasn’t done (like minimum wage being pulled), how many of those people truly understand what he has done? How many are even aware he demanded the resignation, then fired, a guy that was supposed to be representing union interests but was instead working towards rulings and new rules designed to harm unions? How many of these people are truly aware of the crisis at the epa? The national security council? Labor dept. education dept. energy dept. 

 

the man asked for and won an incredibly ****ty job. There’s a ton of work to do. 
 

let’s not also make it a thankless job. 

[tshile]

40 minutes ago, Llevron said:

Yall know that 15 bucks an hour is only 31k a year if you are lucky enough to get 40 hours a week? 

 

Thats madness. Maybe im jaded but how do you even live on that? 

Counter points:

- walking around in life, I’m finding it hard to see how the standard sub15$/hr worker deserves more. Typically they’re awful at their job, and their isn’t nature a pretty ‘basic’ job. This is just my experience. I realize it’s not all of them. But asking for help, or just a question, or expecting a store to be clean, or your order to be correct... I mean if you can’t put the right food in a bag at a 9$/hr job why do you deserve more? And why do we think giving them more fixes the problem they have?

 

- not every job is supposed to be one that provides you a comfortable living. If you think it should, then...

 

- I think the argument this won’t seriously effect prices is silliness. This Econ 101 argument that prices are already the max of what the market will allow, and therefore if we increase minimum wage it’ll just come out of the pockets of the execs running it, is laughable. Maybe I’m wrong but when have we ever seen business owners go “damn guess I’ll just make X less now”. I think some people are overly attached to a very simple and naive idea. (I’m not an economist so... I’m aware I may be deeply wrong here...)

 

- I don’t want a minimum wage hike. I want minimum wage tied to some metric - chained to something relevant - such that it goes up/down automatically as economic conditions warrant. I’m not smart enough to know exactly how tondi that. But I am smart enough to know that relying on political to monitor and appropriately adjust minimum wage is a fools idea. 
 

- I also can’t help but wonder how much the cost of raising children, the cost of education, the cost of healthcare all are the core problem. And usually when you address and issue I some way other than attacking the core problem, you get unintended results and you still have a problem to fix. 
 

- i think “living wage” is a loaded term. What is a person stocking shelves at Walmart entitled to for a life? Should they be able to afford a 200k house? What about a 30k car loan? Do we expect them to be able to save for college for their children, and go on nice vacations? What is a “living wage?” What life is it you’re supposed to be afforded if your peak career situation is running a cash register?

 

there’s more but it’s more or less along the same lines. And look, I get that you can read my post and find offensiveness, or whatever, but all I’ll say is I realize not everyone is what I describe, I don’t desire to make life difficult for people for no reason, and I think minimum wage needs to be reevaluated (as does education, healthcare, etc)

 

as usual I agree with the liberals that there is a serious problem to address, I just don’t like their solutions. And as usual their solution suggests everyone is a good, hard working American, that’s just being squashed by the system, and as usual I think that’s mostly bull****. 

[Larry]

31 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

The opposing argument is that 'you're not supposed to live on that', those jobs are for young people. 

 

And it's a completely false argument.  (Intentionally so, I suspect).  

 

It's based on the completely false premise that the only people affected by the minimum wage are people making exactly the minimum wage.  

 

I'll point to my own situation.  Right now, I'm an LPN, working home health care.  "My patient" is cared for, by a CNA, and an LPN.  The CNA makes $11/hour, the LPN makes $20.  

 

Now, to start with, right now, the min wage is $8/hour.  But the CNA makes $11.  That's because right now, the free market has decided that CNAs need to get paid $3 more than minimum.  

 

Do you think that that when the min wage goes to $15, those same market forces will say that CNAs and burger flippers will make exactly the same wage?  

 

I assert that the same market forces that say you have to pay CNAs more than you pay burger flippers, will still exist after a min wage increase.  

 

The CNA's pay might not go up by the same percentage as the burger flipper.  But their pay won't be exactly equal, either.  

 

And by the same reasoning.  Right now, the market has decided that I'm worth twice as much as the CNA.  You think that after the increase, that same market is going to give the CNA a raise to $15/hour, but my pay is going to stay at exactly $20?  

 

I'm sure that my employer will try to do that.  But if they do, they're going to have trouble convincing people to spend a year in college becoming an LPN.  Just my gut, but I'm pretty sure that a couple years after the min wage increase, LPNs will be making more, too.  Because of the same market forces that are causing that pay right now.  

 

- - - - 

 

And what this means is that a min wage increase will affect a lot more than just the folks who make exactly minimum wage.  

 

In fact, I'm counting on it.  That's exactly why I'm in favor of increasing minimum wage.  I'm not supporting it because of McDonald's workers.  I'm supporting it precisely because it will raise the wages for Nurses, and plumbers, and call center workers, and hairstylists, and dental hygienists, and school teachers, . . . 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

23 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

- I think the argument this won’t seriously effect prices is silliness. This Econ 101 argument that prices are already the max of what the market will allow, and therefore if we increase minimum wage it’ll just come out of the pockets of the execs running it, is laughable. Maybe I’m wrong but when have we ever seen business owners go “damn guess I’ll just make X less now”. I think some people are overly attached to a very simple and naive idea. (I’m not an economist so... I’m aware I may be deeply wrong here...)

Can’t say I disagree with you here.  I’m sure there are models to the contrary.  But all I’ve ever known is that when expenses go up, business owners/corporations simply charge more for their service or product.  The cost is always passed down and never willfully taken from their profit.

[Larry]

1 minute ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Can’t say I disagree with you here.  I’m sure there are models to the contrary.  But all I’ve ever known is that when expenses go up, business owners/corporations simply charge more for their service or product.  The cost is always passed down and never willfully taken from their profit.

 

And my point was that "increasing costs" isn't even the only factor that will contribute to inflation.  "Increased ability to pay" will be a factor, too.  

 

I can also say from experience, that a lot of businesses will use a MW increase as cover for a price increase to boost profits, too.  

[Llevron]

1 hour ago, tshile said:

Counter points:

 

as usual I agree with the liberals that there is a serious problem to address, I just don’t like their solutions. And as usual their solution suggests everyone is a good, hard working American, that’s just being squashed by the system, and as usual I think that’s mostly bull****. 

 

I can appreciate that you used my (extremely shallow) post as a springboard to post your own counter points to a general argument you have seen others, but not me, raise. So I wont bother going point by point in retort unless you are specifically asking me to do so. But I will say that you lumping my question of how one is supposed to live on 15 bucks an hour into a suggestion that everyone is a good, hard working American, that's just being squashed by the system is why we tend to disagree so much when we don't; really. 

 

To me, honestly, its really not even about if these people deserve it. I'm not arrogant enough to feel comfortable making the judgment there. For me the argument is how much better would our country be if everyone in it could meet a baseline standard of living. Education, health and a wage being the three biggest factors in that for me. If we cant give everyone a decent education, and we cant give everyone healthcare and we cant give everyone the wage needed to provide it for themselves then I feel like we are failing as a society. I know we disagree here. I accept that. 

 

 

Edited March 3, 2021 by Llevron

[tshile]

1 hour ago, Larry said:

That's exactly why I'm in favor of increasing minimum wage.

I agree with everything you said. I’ve used the exact same argument (different jobs/careers) to suggest a problem with the idea in the sense that I’m not so sure it works out as intended...  

 

but... that sort of analysis is way beyond my abilities. So it’s a concern I have backed only by what seems like logical thinking to me, and that easily and often backfires. 
 

but it’s a concern I have that’s only every been addressed by assuring me that the money will come out of the pockets of business owners because the market has already set the max price of goods... and that’s an underwhelming and poor answer for me. 

54 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Can’t say I disagree with you here.  I’m sure there are models to the contrary.  But all I’ve ever known is that when expenses go up, business owners/corporations simply charge more for their service or product.  The cost is always passed down and never willfully taken from their profit.

It seems like all we’re doing is raising the “floor”. Max benefit is that for a few years they’ll be “ahead” until the market evens back out to roughly the same place. The floor is still the floor. 
 

I think minimum wage needs to be changed so it’s chained to some economic measure that makes sense and it’s reliant on a overly slow and manipulated political process. 
 

but I think it’s seen a solution it’s not, by many. I think a reasonable adjustment to minimum wage is needed (now and going forward), but I think effort and money is best spent elsewhere (like the things that eat into peoples income - healthcare, education, general child raising expenses, etc)

54 minutes ago, Larry said:

Increased ability to pay" will be a factor, too.  

Yes... lots of interesting studies on how ability to pay more drives up what becomes “market value/price”

 

like housing around NOVA (or other high COL areas), and higher education....

[tshile]

52 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

I can appreciate that you used my (extremely shallow) post as a springboard to post your own counter points to a general argument you have seen others, but not me, raise. So I wont bother going point by point in retort unless you are specifically asking me to do so. But I will say that you lumping my question of how one is supposed to live on 15 bucks an hour into a suggestion that everyone is a good, hard working American, that's just being squashed by the system is why we tend to disagree so much when we don't; really. 
 

honestly that wasn’t my intention. I wasn’t thinking of you specifically. At all. Just a general theme throughout progressive legislation. It’s sort of the core of most of what they push for. 
 

that was all I was really aiming at with that stuff. 

52 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

To me, honestly, its really not even about if these people deserve it. I'm not arrogant enough to feel comfortable making the judgment there. For me the argument is how much better would our country be if everyone in it could meet a baseline standard of living. Education, health and a wage being the three biggest factors in that for me. If we cant give everyone a decent education, and we cant give everyone healthcare and we cant give everyone the wage needed to provide it for themselves then I feel like we are failing as a society. I know we disagree here. I accept that. 

 

 

I agree that it’s generally an improvement for the overall economy. 

i think it’s a shallow solution to a complex problem. 
 

I also realize coming up with better solutions means having conversations with the general public that the general public can’t handle (Warren’s biggest issue is she’s a wink - super smart woman with tons of knowledge and data driven arguments. And people struggle to like her because they don’t know how to shut the **** up and listen when someone smarter is speaking, and to also respect that person)

 

but if I were to tackle the problem of living at the lower end of socioeconomic status, I can think of a list of items I’d tackle before minimum wage. And when I get to minimum wage, it’d be a different solution than a slow drag to some arbitrary number that took root with the general public. 
 

it’s a lazy solution. 
 

better solutions have speed bumps: general public lacking ability to listen to smart discussions, general public not caring about the well-being of fellow citizens they don’t personally know, and of course republicans in general, would all be at the top of my list of speed bumps. 

but that does t change what I see when I see the pushing for this. It just feels ****ing lazy. A crumb to make some people feel better until they realize all they got was a crumb. 

[Larry]

9 minutes ago, tshile said:

I agree with everything you said. I’ve used the exact same argument (different jobs/careers) to suggest a problem with the idea in the sense that I’m not so sure it works out as intended...  

 

but... that sort of analysis is way beyond my abilities. So it’s a concern I have backed only by what seems like logical thinking to me, and that easily and often backfires. 
 

but it’s a concern I have that’s only every been addressed by assuring me that the money will come out of the pockets of business owners because the market has already set the max price of goods... and that’s an underwhelming and poor answer for me. 

 

I simply think of wages and the labor market as a bunch of points on a chart,  One point might be "electrician" or "truck driver".  Well, all of these points are connected by tiny springs, pushing or pulling on every point.  

 

So I simplify all of those competing forces, and imagine that this chart is printed on a sheet of rubber.  

 

And then I imagine that a minimum wage increase comes along, and moves all the data points at the bottom, upwards.  

 

I think it's simply obvious that raising the wages of the people at the very bottom, will cause an increase in the wages of other points.  And that the closer one is to the minimum, the more impact it will have.  (And, as people move away from the minimum, the less impact it will happen.)  

[Fergasun]

I think you are missing the point.  The issue is that for 50 years (1968 is when minimum wage decoupled from purchasing power)  the country has taken a path that ignores, devalues and holds back the poor. 

 

The top 50% has run away with the benefits, oppurtunites, and open doors while the bottom 50% falls behind more and more. 

 

The complex system, without any thought other than "this is what I can get away with in a free market" siliently has screwed a couple generations.  What has happened is like a frog in a boiling pot of water....

 

To the point that even getting purchasing power back to where it was is darn near impossible.  The top 50 % find the discussion so abhorrant... because the bottom 50% are just lazy.  

 

Any number of things, irregardless of how hard working you are can drag you out of the top 50%... and its hard to work back up.  

[Hersh]

The conversation around the minimum wage highlights the problems we have in this country. Health care is expensive, not much affordable housing, mass transit in some places is terrible, the cost of food is going up, tuition is through the roof. We need comprehensive solutions. 

5 minutes ago, Fergasun said:

I think you are missing the point.  The issue is that for 50 years (1968 is when minimum wage decoupled from purchasing power)  the country has taken a path that ignores, devalues and holds back the poor. 

 

The top 50% has run away with the benefits, oppurtunites, and open doors while the bottom 50% falls behind more and more. 

 

The complex system, without any thought other than "this is what I can get away with in a free market" siliently has screwed a couple generations.  What has happened is like a frog in a boiling pot of water....

 

To the point that even getting purchasing power back to where it was is darn near impossible.  The top 50 % find the discussion so abhorrant... because the bottom 50% are just lazy.  

 

Any number of things, irregardless of how hard working you are can drag you out of the top 50%... and its hard to work back up.  

 

I was with you up until "irregardless". 

[Mooka]

34 minutes ago, tshile said:

 I think a reasonable adjustment to minimum wage is needed (now and going forward), but I think effort and money is best spent elsewhere (like the things that eat into peoples income - healthcare, education, general child raising expenses, etc)

 

The question is what do we do as a country when none of these are able to pass through with any significance.

 

The minimum wage for example hasn't changed since 2009. Not a dime. That's clearly not right. 

 

If we can't do a reasonable adjustment then what is the solution? 

 

Not saying i know the answer but there's a reason why progressives are trying to add a $15 minimum wage into the covid relief package. Otherwise it'll never pass. 

[tshile]

59 minutes ago, Fergasun said:

I think you are missing the point. 

Honestly I don’t think anyone is missing the point. 
 

I think for the most part we’ve all be providing alternative solutions we think would better address the socioeconomic gap we have. Because we think they’re better solutions. 
 

we’re not ignoring the problem you’ve highlighted. We’re saying we’d prefer it be solved a better way. 
 

and that some of aren’t very convinced this onetime minimum wage hike is going to do much of anything (at least not without other serious reforms)

[tshile]

57 minutes ago, Mooka said:

The question is what do we do as a country when none of these are able to pass through with any significance.

Yes. And for what it’s worth, I’m able to separate criticism of a proposed solution, and the realities of invoking any solution. As I pointed out, there are speed bumps to all of it. 
 

I’m not a fan of “I don’t agree with you therefore we should do nothing” like many people. I’m down for doing something to make things better. But I will always point out better options and flaws if I see them. 
 

If the only thing we can get is a onetime minimum wage hike, fine. It’s better than nothing. 
 

but don’t be surprised if 5 years later you’re realizing some of us were right, that the long term net effect is washed out. And that the core issues still remain. And may even get worse. 
 

(Btw - If business do increase prices... last solid argument I read showed most of the people getting the minim wage hike... spend most of their money at places that pay <15$ an hour. The poorer people getting the raise will also be disproportionately affected by price increases... this onetime hike isn’t as awesome of an idea as it’s being pitched, without other serious reforms)

 

 

ps - I’m for a wealth tax. Your net worth over X, you get taxed 50% on every dollar over it. Doesn’t matter if that means you have to sell stocks or property, you’re taxed 50% on every dollar of net wealth over X. Because, as a poster I highly respect outlined years ago, it’s really hard to imagine a better/different way to attack the wealth gap than to just literal take 50% of over X and redistribute it to society 

Edited March 3, 2021 by tshile

[Larry]

4 minutes ago, tshile said:

ps - I’m for a wealth tax. Your net worth over X, you get taxed 50% on every dollar over it. Doesn’t matter if that means you have to sell stocks or property, you’re taxed 50% on every dollar of net wealth over X. Because, as a poster I highly respect outlined years ago, it’s really hard to imagine a better/different way to attack the wealth gap than to just literal take 50% of over X and redistribute it to society 

 

Just pointing out - what you're talking about is confiscation.  And an incredibly severe one, at that.  

[tshile]

22 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

Just pointing out - what you're talking about is confiscation.  And an incredibly severe one, at that.  

Yup. 
 

and I used to be vehemently against it. 
 

but the wealth gap is incredibly damaging to our country. 
 

and if the rich people gave a **** they’d been doing something the whole time to keep it from getting this bad. they’ve certainly had the power. They’re certainly aware of the issue. 
 

So that’s the price you pay when you stand by idly watching something like this happen. 
 

History is full of poor people uprising because the rich thought they could get away with abusing them indefinitely. 
 

for whatever reason the rich don’t ever seem to learn this lesson and are doomed to repeat it indefinitely. 
 

they should be happy they’re rich in 2021 and their penalty is losing 50% of every dollar over, say, 300 million in wealth. 
 

cause throughout history, and you can still see it today, the more common practice is execution and confiscation of everything

 

there are penalties for sitting idly by not helping others. And they’re not just ones Jesus told us about. The rich get to choose their own adventure, and doing nothing is a choice. 

Edited March 3, 2021 by tshile