Larry Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 5 hours ago, Destino said: Iran is working hard to make war an inevitable conclusion. While I'll agree that Iran is escalating things, I'll point out that I'm not at all sure that war is what they want. I will note that we had an agreement in place, and they seemed to be abiding with it, until we reneged on our end of the deal. And, when we reneged, Iran (again, as near as I can tell) continued to live up to their end of the deal, because Europe was also holding to the deal. Until we bullied Europe into breaking the deal, too. So, based on the little bit I can see from the cheap seats, is Iran escalating things because they want to force us to invade them? Or because they want to force us to go back to the deal that they were willing to live within? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted September 16, 2019 Author Share Posted September 16, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 39 minutes ago, Dan T. said: My primary initial doubt that Iran was responsible was the Trump administration declaring that Iran was responsible. Don't thik there's anybody in the area I'd believe, when it comes to pointing fingers in this matter. Like, supposedly we've found the passport from an Iranian drone pilot? Yes, I absolutely believe that Iran might have done this. I'm not saying that I think it's impossible Iran would do it. They certainly could have. I'm saying that if Trump shows me video of a drone in flight with an Iranian flag on it, and the oil refinery in the background, I'd look for Sharpie marks on the screen. (Which is pretty much the topic of this thread.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted September 16, 2019 Author Share Posted September 16, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 22 minutes ago, Dan T. said: So you are shocked that rebel groups can get access to sophisticated weapons? I mean, with international arms sales so highly regulated and all... That my point, who'd they get them from? ISIS got tanks by taking over Syrian and Iraqi military bases, but they did t have drones with missiles. Also, these folks in Yemen refuse to show proof. This whole thing stinks to high heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted September 16, 2019 Author Share Posted September 16, 2019 (edited) It seems very possible that Iran did some kind of sabotage or the Houthis fired a missile or two at Saudi Arabia since they’ve done that before, but the claims US officials are making seem preposterous. So either something weird is going on, or we’re likely exaggerating things to put more pressure on Iran. Edited September 16, 2019 by visionary 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 2 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: That my point, who'd they get them from? ISIS got tanks by taking over Syrian and Iraqi military bases, but they did t have drones with missiles. Also, these folks in Yemen refuse to show proof. This whole thing stinks to high heaven. Just casually asking, are you actually trying to argue that Iran couldn't possibly have perfored this attack, because the Iranian Guard could not possibly have gotten advanced weaponry (from Iran)? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simmsy Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 Ok...so why was Bolton fired again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 22 minutes ago, Larry said: Just casually asking, are you actually trying to argue that Iran couldn't possibly have perfored this attack, because the Iranian Guard could not possibly have gotten advanced weaponry (from Iran)? Huh? Where'd you get that from? I believe somehow this ties back to Iran. I have just as hard time believing Iran shot missiles from their territory as Terrorist groups in Yemen building their own drones. Did the terrorist get the drones from Yemen? Did Iran fly their drones from Yemen and let the terrorist claim credit? It's completely fair to ask how this really happened before figuring out who to blame, because it doesnt make any sense at all either story that's been presented, jus that both have a common enemy being Saudi Arabia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooked Crack Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted September 16, 2019 Author Share Posted September 16, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 40 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: Huh? Where'd you get that from? I believe somehow this ties back to Iran. I have just as hard time believing Iran shot missiles from their territory as Terrorist groups in Yemen building their own drones. Did the terrorist get the drones from Yemen? Did Iran fly their drones from Yemen and let the terrorist claim credit? It's completely fair to ask how this really happened before figuring out who to blame, because it doesnt make any sense at all either story that's been presented, jus that both have a common enemy being Saudi Arabia. There is no way insurgents playing at amateur weapons design pulled off an attack this precise from 800 miles away. There is really no question someone else is behind this. The question that remains is who launched and from where. If this was a case of Iran selling them weapons and they were launched from Yemen, Iran can argue they were merely an arms dealer. The experts cnn had on today seemed to all have doubts these things, whatever they were, were launched from Yemen. 10 minutes ago, Cooked Crack said: This is what I was talking about earlier, Trump used to argue we should get protection money! This guy changes opinions more often than people change socks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 @Destino Im with you theres no way they built drones with missiles from parts they gathered. My question is if it was indeed missiles, how did they go completely undetected? Countries in that area are always warning about war with Iran, after all this money we gave them, they had no way to see these coming or stop them? If I was Iran, even if i didnt do it, that's the first thing i would've done if i thought i could do it in the event of a war. Tanks eventually run out of fuel. Are they really crazy enough to insist some terrorist did this on their own? Can we prove it is maybe just as important, right? If we could prove Iran was directly responsible for that attack, that sounds like an act of war, you almost have to if you can prove it to prevent them from stopping that high a supply again, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Destino said: This is what I was talking about earlier, Trump used to argue we should get protection money! This guy changes opinions more often than people change socks. Yet it would be fitting to get our debt in check by letting someone hire us to fight their war. 2 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: Are they really crazy enough to insist some terrorist did this on their own? Is it crazy to push nonsense (that protects you) when the #1 person/entity that would keep you in check is a buffoon/collection of buffoons? it doesn’t matter what your or I think. It matters how the administration behaves and thinks. Is it a coincidence Iran has become its most aggressive form in years at a time when US politics are what they are and the US President is someone like Trump? Edited September 16, 2019 by tshile 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 5 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: Are they really crazy enough to insist some terrorist did this on their own? Remember Putin claiming that the Russian speaking troops wearing Russian Army uniforms (with the flags removed), driving Russian military vehicles, including armored units, and firing Russian SAMS, were actually Ukranians who bought things army surplus? Heck, remember, well, every single thing one of Donald Trump's press spokesmen have ever said? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 Claiming you have a max strategy for pressure on Iran is a great way to justify war, when your stupid strategy fails like everyone knew ahead of time it would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted September 16, 2019 Author Share Posted September 16, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 49 minutes ago, tshile said: Is it crazy to push nonsense (that protects you) when the #1 person/entity that would keep you in check is a buffoon/collection of buffoons? it doesn’t matter what your or I think. It matters how the administration behaves and thinks. Is it a coincidence Iran has become its most aggressive form in years at a time when US politics are what they are and the US President is someone like Trump? Does congress need to approve military action in the event of an attack on an ally? Like if Trump wanted to puts on the ground right now, does their need to be a vote to authorize it? Can it be challenged by congress? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 Just now, Renegade7 said: Does congress need to approve military action in the event of an attack on an ally? Like if Trump wanted to puts on the ground right now, does their need to be a vote to authorize it? Can it be challenged by congress? Didn’t bush basically show us no, you don’t need congress? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 44 minutes ago, Larry said: Remember Putin claiming that the Russian speaking troops wearing Russian Army uniforms (with the flags removed), driving Russian military vehicles, including armored units, and firing Russian SAMS, were actually Ukranians who bought things army surplus? Heck, remember, well, every single thing one of Donald Trump's press spokesmen have ever said? Nobody cared about Crimea, going after the planets oil supply sounds like suicide, dont you think? If Trump doesnt fall for their attempt to say it was someone else, was it worth it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted September 16, 2019 Author Share Posted September 16, 2019 6 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: Does congress need to approve military action in the event of an attack on an ally? Like if Trump wanted to puts on the ground right now, does their need to be a vote to authorize it? Can it be challenged by congress? Haven't we been bombing and putting troops in various places for years now without it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 (edited) 15 minutes ago, tshile said: Didn’t bush basically show us no, you don’t need congress? Declaring war on actual government or terrorists in any country they want? Bush got both house and senate to vote for war on Afghanistan and Iran, Obama didnt for Libya but also didnt use ground troops. Edited September 16, 2019 by Renegade7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 (edited) 12 minutes ago, visionary said: Haven't we been bombing and putting troops in various places for years now without it? That's what I'm trying to clarify. Government voted to declare war on terrorist groups and terrorist groups are in several different countries. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorization_for_Use_of_Military_Force_Against_Terrorists But isnt that different then declaring war on a actual government? I'm not trying to defend action either way, I'm trying to make sure he can actually declare war on Iran without congress and what congress can do if he tries. Edited September 16, 2019 by Renegade7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 "War on Terror" all bets are off as far as the rules goes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted September 16, 2019 Share Posted September 16, 2019 1 minute ago, Renegade7 said: But isnt that different then declaring war on a actual government? I guess technically sure. But based on the reality of the last 20 years no I don’t think congress would intervene and I don’t think the president needs approval to attack someone. Preeminante and so on. Obama killed a US citizen overseas with a drone with no trial. This idea that they’re bound by rules only works if there’s someone to enforce the rules. Haven’t seen a lot of rule enforcing over the last 20 years 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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