CousinsCowgirl84 Posted April 3, 2019 Share Posted April 3, 2019 4 minutes ago, HOF44 said: Seems like the next question is if MCAS can override the pilot taking control. Just gotta wait and let the investigation play out. I’m fine with it... but even if it is a mistake Boeing made, I’m not “outraged”... sometimes you have to pay a price for progress... automated systems sent perfect, nor should the be expected to be. I’m sure Boeing doesn’t have an interest in selling planes that fall from the sky. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOF44 Posted April 3, 2019 Share Posted April 3, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: I’m fine with it... but even if it is a mistake Boeing made, I’m not “outraged”... sometimes you have to pay a price for progress... automated systems sent perfect, nor should the be expected to be. I’m sure Boeing doesn’t have an interest in selling planes that fall from the sky. This wasn't progress. Progress would have been making a new lighter airframe designed for these fuel efficient engines. Boeing took a shortcut to save time and money and tried to put engine on an airframe that was never designed for them and 100's of people payed with their lives. All brought on because they were losing orders to Airbus in this size category. Edited April 3, 2019 by HOF44 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted April 3, 2019 Share Posted April 3, 2019 24 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: You can definatley disable autopilot and mcas on the max8. A crew flying the lion air crash did it and was able to continue for a safe flight. You did not even read that headline from Reuters I just posted. You may want to pay close attention to one specific word...."REPEATEDLY" 15 minutes ago, HOF44 said: Seems like the next question is if MCAS can override the pilot taking control. Just gotta wait and let the investigation play out. Certainly sounds like it, since the pilots turned it off repeatedly. 11 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: I’m fine with it... but even if it is a mistake Boeing made, I’m not “outraged”... sometimes you have to pay a price for progress... automated systems sent perfect, nor should the be expected to be. I’m sure Boeing doesn’t have an interest in selling planes that fall from the sky. Boeing hasn't paid the price...the hundreds of passengers and the pilots did. Now that I know you see people as expendable for corporate profit I can more properly understand your dysfunction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted April 3, 2019 Share Posted April 3, 2019 1 hour ago, AsburySkinsFan said: Boeing hasn't paid the price...the hundreds of passengers and the pilots did. Now that I know you see people as expendable for corporate profit I can more properly understand your dysfunction. Well have to see, I highly doubt all the airlines who had aircraft taken out of service due to this are going to accept sole responsibility for thier financial losses... 1 hour ago, HOF44 said: This wasn't progress. Progress would have been making a new lighter airframe designed for these fuel efficient engines. Boeing took a shortcut to save time and money and tried to put engine on an airframe that was never designed for them and 100's of people payed with their lives. All brought on because they were losing orders to Airbus in this size category. Your reasoning behind why they kept the 737 body is pure speculation. You are a acting like designing a completely new airframe doesn’t have similar risks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted April 3, 2019 Share Posted April 3, 2019 2 hours ago, HOF44 said: Seems like the next question is if MCAS can override the pilot taking control. Just gotta wait and let the investigation play out. It can certainly re-engage if you do not completely disable it. When it does you will see the trim wheels rotate....if you look. From my reading the Lionair flight did not fully disable it and tried to work within the mcas system to correct the problem. https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2019/march/14/faa-grounds-boeing-737-max-fleet https://leehamnews.com/2018/11/28/indonesian-authorities-release-preliminary-lion-air-crash-report/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted April 3, 2019 Share Posted April 3, 2019 Ahhhh still blaming the pilots for Boeing's flaw. It's fine, I get it, he probably hazs a big chunk of his 401k in Boeing stock. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOF44 Posted April 3, 2019 Share Posted April 3, 2019 5 hours ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said: Well have to see, I highly doubt all the airlines who had aircraft taken out of service due to this are going to accept sole responsibility for thier financial losses... Your reasoning behind why they kept the 737 body is pure speculation. You are a acting like designing a completely new airframe doesn’t have similar risks. If it was speculation MCAS would have never existed on a 737. The engines affected the stability of the airframe. If not MCAS would have never been created to mask the instability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted April 3, 2019 Share Posted April 3, 2019 7 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said: Ahhhh still blaming the pilots for Boeing's flaw. It's fine, I get it, he probably hazs a big chunk of his 401k in Boeing stock. The pilots actions in response are a different matter than the flaw. pretty sure my opinion here is not gonna move the stock price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted April 3, 2019 Share Posted April 3, 2019 1 minute ago, twa said: The pilots actions in response are a different matter than the flaw. pretty sure my opinion here is not gonna move the stock price. Ohhh so you're committed to your opinion for some other bizarre reason that simply defies logic and reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted April 3, 2019 Share Posted April 3, 2019 1 minute ago, AsburySkinsFan said: Ohhh so you're committed to your opinion for some other bizarre reason that simply defies logic and reason. defies yours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted April 3, 2019 Share Posted April 3, 2019 4 minutes ago, twa said: defies yours Which is based on facts, reason, and the opinion of experts. Your's is based solely on truthiness. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOF44 Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 Seems the flight crew tried multiple times to follow Boeings disconnect instructions but the effort failed. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/ethiopia-says-pilots-performed-boeings-recommendations-to-stop-doomed-aircraft-from-diving-urges-review-of-737-max-flight-control-system/2019/04/04/3a125942-4fec-11e9-bdb7-44f948cc0605_story.html?utm_term=.07b8cd1f6b5f 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CousinsCowgirl84 Posted April 4, 2019 Share Posted April 4, 2019 Here is a video which demonstrates what a crew flying a max would need to do to manually adjust the trim setting (after recognizing the issue, and disabling MCAS) of note, this is an example of a case when the trim is full down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOF44 Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 Interesting. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/ethiopia-says-pilots-performed-boeings-recommendations-to-stop-doomed-aircraft-from-diving-urges-review-of-737-max-flight-control-system/2019/04/04/3a125942-4fec-11e9-bdb7-44f948cc0605_story.html?utm_term=.ae6606692dc2 Experts say that the airplane was traveling too fast for the manual trim wheel to be operated. At higher speed, manual trim may not be available due [to] air load on the stabilizer,” said John Cox, a former pilot and an airline-safety consultant who has been privately briefed on the evidence by people familiar with the investigation. “Not enough force can be generated manually to move the trim.” 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RansomthePasserby Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 1 hour ago, HOF44 said: Interesting. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/ethiopia-says-pilots-performed-boeings-recommendations-to-stop-doomed-aircraft-from-diving-urges-review-of-737-max-flight-control-system/2019/04/04/3a125942-4fec-11e9-bdb7-44f948cc0605_story.html?utm_term=.ae6606692dc2 Experts say that the airplane was traveling too fast for the manual trim wheel to be operated. At higher speed, manual trim may not be available due [to] air load on the stabilizer,” said John Cox, a former pilot and an airline-safety consultant who has been privately briefed on the evidence by people familiar with the investigation. “Not enough force can be generated manually to move the trim.” I.e., 500 MPH wind is strong! Shout out to all the aerospace and human factors engineers in this thread. From what I’ve read, the MCAS kept kicking in because the computer “thought” the aircraft was stalling, so it automatically pointed the aircraft at the ground get air flowing over the wings... which is not something you want when the ground isn’t that far away. Seems like it’s a good feature to have, but they really should not let it kick in below a certain altitude. I have a feeling this has more to do with tight deadlines, overworked software developers, and skimpy QA/QC than it does airframes and engine weight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 41 minutes ago, RansomthePasserby said: I have a feeling this has more to do with tight deadlines, overworked software developers, and skimpy QA/QC than it does airframes and engine weight. Decades ago, working computer programming, I recall the expression: If builders built buildings the way programmers write programs, the first woodpecker that came along would destroy civilization. Also reflecting on the things I keep hearing about designing computer-driven tractor trailers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokerPacker Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 1 hour ago, Larry said: Decades ago, working computer programming, I recall the expression: If builders built buildings the way programmers write programs, the first woodpecker that came along would destroy civilization. Also reflecting on the things I keep hearing about designing computer-driven tractor trailers. Sounds about right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 this article seems more informative https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ethiopia-airplane-reconstruction-insi-idUSKCN1RH0FJ?utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_content=5ca7309c00e48b00017e18f3&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elessar78 Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 (edited) yeah, was reading about the same thing. If completely true, it jives with a lot of what I've read prior about crashes involving modern jets: it's never just one thing. Modern jets are designed with a lot of redundancy. So here you had an alleged bird strike, pilot error, software error and mechanical error Edited April 5, 2019 by Elessar78 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 another article that illustrates the problem the Ethiopian flight had was probably not just the MCAS system https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safety/vestigal-design-issue-clouds-737-max-crash-investigations/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RansomthePasserby Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 5 hours ago, Elessar78 said: Modern jets are designed with a lot of redundancy. So here you had an alleged bird strike, pilot error, software error and mechanical error Yes and both pilots were in their 20s, so add inexperience to the list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 1 minute ago, RansomthePasserby said: Yes and both pilots were in their 20s, so add inexperience to the list. The pilot while being young was fairly experienced, the co-pilot was not. fwiu they use like a apprenticeship program w/co-pilots which allows much less experienced ones in the ****pit than the US does. the most disturbing thing to me in the last article was they supposedly didn't address the trim wheel till 3 minutes after experiencing control issues. Combine that with not reducing power and easing pressure on the trim surfaces then conditions rapidly degrade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elessar78 Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 4 minutes ago, RansomthePasserby said: Yes and both pilots were in their 20s, so add inexperience to the list. But some people just want to flat out blame Boeing or FAA. And I won't say they're blameless. Ethiopian Air needs some blame for not purchasing the optional sensors or having flight simulators for their pilots. Boeing for less than perfect software. FAA for less than perfect oversight. Boeing has had decades of minimal accidents of this magnitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 (edited) Boeing fixes their problem when they learn about it and.....wait for it...... ...... ....... ....... ........ ........ keep waiting..... ....... ........ those planes don't crash! those people live this thread doesn't exist. Edited April 5, 2019 by AsburySkinsFan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted April 5, 2019 Share Posted April 5, 2019 Do you expect problems never to occur in flight?......or just easy ones? Doing things is never hard till things go wrong, then you find out who knows how to do things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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