What do you Believe??? (Religion)

[HOF44]

Through all of human history anything not understood or explainable has been attributed a "god" or "gods".  As our knowledge increased more was understood and less attributed to "gods". So I think our fixation with a "god" is really just a placeholder for "I don't know".  We may never know it all, but that doesn't mean there is a real live God jus things we don't know or can't explain.  

[Kosher Ham]

Predictive is about potentially predictable circumstances/happenings. 

 

Science is about showing consistency and relative reasoning to explain why. 

You have heard the sentence " tried and true" before. That is the most basic sciences in general. 

The Bible is about predictions in the same way a Farmers Almanac is.

How many times have we heard about the end of times or some type of Mad Max movie things happening over the last 30 years alone ? 

 

Yet here we all are. I believe in the end of times more than I believe in a particular God. Then again... I have never built a bunker, I don't think it would save me. 

[ExoDus84]

I was raised Christian, but around the time I hit 14-15, I started to change, and eventually became what I am, which is agnostic. The more I saw how religious types were so commonly bigoted and judgemental, the more I realized that if God existed, there's no way he would have created something that would not only drive us apart, but cause so many wars and deaths over the course of our history.

 

Conversely, science currently tells us the universe, and us by association, basically appeared out of nothing, for no reason whatsoever, which also doesn't make much sense. Which leads me to my current viewpoint:

 

Who the eff knows what's out there or why.

[Zguy28]

4 minutes ago, ExoDus84 said:

I was raised Christian, but around the time I hit 14-15, I started to change, and eventually became what I am, which is agnostic. The more I saw how religious types were so commonly bigoted and judgemental, the more I realized that if God existed, there's no way he would have created something that would not only drive us apart, but cause so many wars and deaths over the course of our history.

 

Conversely, science currently tells us the universe, and us by association, basically appeared out of nothing, for no reason whatsoever, which also doesn't make much sense. Which leads me to my current viewpoint:

 

Who the eff knows what's out there or why.

I'm curious how old you are currently?

[Kosher Ham]

EDIT: Science will tell me when a meteor will crash into Earth. 

The Bible states it in a completely different way. 

Interesting...your clip of my post. 

19 hours ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

Have we decided who the one true God is yet?

 

Eminem ?

1 minute ago, Zguy28 said:

I'm curious how old you are currently?

 

What difference does that make ? For most folks that are agnostic...the older you get the less you believe in Santa also. 

[No Excuses]

 

6 minutes ago, ExoDus84 said:

Conversely, science currently tells us the universe, and us by association, basically appeared out of nothing, for no reason whatsoever, which also doesn't make much sense. Which leads me to my current viewpoint:

 

Science really doesn't make the claim that we appeared for no reason whatsoever. 

 

For instance, we know that the process of random mutations and natural selection (along with several other factors) has created the biodiversity we see on Earth. So one reason for existence is that the laws of nature allow for this process to take place.

 

The problem is that the scientific answers to these questions aren't appealing to people because they remain within the bounds of what science is meant to describe and explain. The scientific method is not equipped to address philosophical questions about the meaning of life or the purpose of the universe. That's not the domain of the sciences, nor will it ever be. 

[PeterMP]

23 minutes ago, Kosher Ham said:

Predictive is about potentially predictable circumstances/happenings. 

 

Science is about showing consistency and relative reasoning to explain why. 

You have heard the sentence " tried and true" before. That is the most basic sciences in general. 

The Bible is about predictions in the same way a Farmers Almanac is.

How many times have we heard about the end of times or some type of Mad Max movie things happening over the last 30 years alone ? 

 

Yet here we all are. I believe in the end of times more than I believe in a particular God. Then again... I have never built a bunker, I don't think it would save me. 

 

Again, science doesn't give you reasons why things are consistent.  It assumes things are consistent.  It does not show that true and universal natural laws exist, it assumes they do.

 

There is a long history of people that didn't understand the world understanding that there are part of the Bible that are difficult to interpret and might not be literal, that studying nature would give us a better understanding of the Bible and what parts of the Bible are likely to be literal and what parts are not.

Edited April 10, 2018 by PeterMP

[PeterMP]

23 minutes ago, Kosher Ham said:

EDIT: Science will tell me when a meteor will crash into Earth. 

 

Science will tell you if a meteor will crash into the Earth IF the laws of nature don't change to prevent it.

 

If scientists tell you that a meteor is going to hit Earth, you will believe it will because you believe that there are laws of nature that can't change.  Though there isn't actually good (i.e. scientific) evidence that there are laws of nature that can't change.

 

You have a fundamental belief that science doesn't and can't support.

[Kosher Ham]

Wait... you really just said that ? 

Science proves gravity...unless you change a dynamic. 

Mary the virgin is one of the most absurd things in the world. 

But if you believe that, cool. That's your thing. 

 

Are you trying to say God changes it ? 

I refer to my point of God is not omni anything if he allows and promotes so many innocent folks to die. 

 

We can agree that Science has shown the world a lot more...right ?  

Oh, flat earth ? 

2 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

Science will tell you if a meteor will crash into the Earth IF the laws of nature don't change to prevent it.

 

So you believe in Mother Nature ? 

 

Not human consumption ? Irresponsibility ? 

Hmm...

Edited April 10, 2018 by Kosher Ham

[PeterMP]

53 minutes ago, HOF44 said:

Through all of human history anything not understood or explainable has been attributed a "god" or "gods".  As our knowledge increased more was understood and less attributed to "gods". So I think our fixation with a "god" is really just a placeholder for "I don't know".  We may never know it all, but that doesn't mean there is a real live God jus things we don't know or can't explain.  

 

The point that I would make is (in western society) science is really an out growth of efforts by Christians (that didn't understand things like evolution and the Earth isn't the center of the Universe) to try and understand what parts of the Bible are to be read literally and what parts aren't.

 

Science makes sense in the context of there being a God to give natural laws and that's really how and where it started.  A field based on that then, can't really be used as evidence that the underlying idea (that there is a God) is false.

 

Our understanding of the natural world has greatly increased due to science.  That's a prediction that in the heart of the Middle Ages that Christians (essentially) made.  The progress of science should not be held against a belief in God.  It is evidence that there is a God.

Edited April 10, 2018 by PeterMP

[Zguy28]

Some folks seem to hold to scientism, not science itself.

 

https://www.aaas.org/page/what-scientism

 

 

[PeterMP]

14 minutes ago, Kosher Ham said:

Wait... you really just said that ? 

Science proves gravity...unless you change a dynamic. 

Mary the virgin is one of the most absurd things in the world. 

But if you believe that, cool. That's your thing. 

 

Are you trying to say God changes it ? 

I refer to my point of God is not omni anything if he allows and promotes so many innocent folks to die. 

 

We can agree that Science has shown the world a lot more...right ?  

Oh, flat earth ? 

 

So you believe in Mother Nature ? 

 

Not human consumption ? Irresponsibility ? 

Hmm...

 

Again, science (essentially) assumes (for there to be a predictive benefit) there are some underlying things that are constant.  Whether one of those fundamental things is gravity or there is something "under" gravity that can be changed to influence it are not clear (to me at least).  But fundamentally, that is an assumption of people that use science.

 

Why might it change?  How about random chance?  If you walked into a room and I was flipping a coin and after you come into the room, I get 3 flips in a row with head, you wouldn't take that as (good or scientific evidence) that the next flip would be heads. 

 

And if the next one came up tails, you shouldn't really be surprised at all (and many people would argue that it should have even been expected because tails should have been "due").

 

(Western) Science comes from Christianity.  Early scientists (Galileo etc.) were motivated by ideas put forward by St. Augustine who was thinking about better ways to understand God.  Separating them makes no sense to me.  If A helped contribute to B and B helps contribute to C, to judge A and B as if they are independent things based on the value of C is nonsensical.

Edited April 10, 2018 by PeterMP

[Zguy28]

35 minutes ago, Kosher Ham said:

What difference does that make ? For most folks that are agnostic...the older you get the less you believe in Santa also. 

Chill. I was just curious what generation he is part of. It was academic really.

[Kosher Ham]

Apple a day, keeps the doctor away. 

 

Hmmm...

 

As American as apple pie...

Hmmm...

 

Peter the odds on a coin are 50/50. 

 

Early science though the world was flat. Is it ? 

Prove it is and I will dismiss that also. right ? Maybe not. 

[Kosher Ham]

23 minutes ago, Zguy28 said:

Chill. I was just curious what generation he is part of. It was academic really.

 

It is still irrelevant. 

Suppose he grew up in a home that had zero religion... 

I am older than most of you guys, yet keep up with the times. 

Age is a number that you place on yourself more than anyone else does. 

I believe more these days that religion in a choice and gay is...natural. 

[PleaseBlitz]

I don't believe I've ever seen anything that I would consider to be "scientific" that made me think that a God is more likely to exist or that any religion is more likely to be right. 

[TheGreatBuzz]

7 hours ago, PeterMP said:

Well, it isn't just an idea.  It is an idea that is backed by lots of evidence. ...............If you wish to explain why, you are welcome to.

What I meant (and I was using your words so I think you meant the same) by "idea" is something like the Big Bang is still really an idea, not something 100% proven.  Sure it is the most currently plausible and backed up by some facts but we still don't KNOW.  

I in my heart do not believe there is a God.  Just as others believe in their heart there is.  I don't KNOW there isn't a God and would argue that religious people don't KNOW there is a God.  They just believe it in their hearts.

The reasons I don't believe in a God are numerous but I will highlight some.  This isn't meant to argue someone else beliefs but just explain what led to mine.  I look at the way many religious people, from the top to the bottom, handle their own affairs and don't see why a God would allow those people to be His voice on earth.  I look at so many of the stories in the Bible and other religious texts and I just don't believe they are true (see my Boy Who Cried Wolf analogy).  Then I look at all the pain and suffering in the world that He allows to happen.  I was in a discussion with a priest a number of years back.  I ended our discussion with "IF there is a God, he does not deserve to be worshiped but only feared".  I believe that still applies.  But in the end it is just what I believe in my heart.  I acknowledge I may be wrong which is why I give that .05% but I don't call myself agnostic because that just seems like a fence sitter position to me (please no offense to people that identify as agnostic).  

 

1 hour ago, HOF44 said:

Through all of human history anything not understood or explainable has been attributed a "god" or "gods".  As our knowledge increased more was understood and less attributed to "gods". So I think our fixation with a "god" is really just a placeholder for "I don't know".  We may never know it all, but that doesn't mean there is a real live God jus things we don't know or can't explain.  

I think this is an excellent explanation.  

[gbear]

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.” - Stuart Chase

 

As I read through this thread, I feel like there is a fair amount of talking past each other and general feelings like the other side just can't see what is obvious.  It reminds me of this funny clip:

It's not about the nail.

[HOF44]

54 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

Our understanding of the natural world has greatly increased due to science.  That's a prediction that in the heart of the Middle Ages that Christians (essentially) made.  The progress of science should not be held against a belief in God.  It is evidence that there is a God.

You can believe whatever you want, it is everyone's right.  I don't see the progress of science as evidence of god though.  "God" pretty much by definition is unknowable and unexplainable.  When you start throwing around words like evidence and God in the same sentence I think you end up losing me.  God is a belief period.   

[ExoDus84]

1 hour ago, Zguy28 said:

I'm curious how old you are currently?

 

I'm 33. I've been agnostic since my mid-late teens, per my previous post.

 

1 hour ago, Kosher Ham said:

What difference does that make ? For most folks that are agnostic...the older you get the less you believe in Santa also. 

 

Wait, Santa isn't real?

[PeterMP]

5 minutes ago, HOF44 said:

You can believe whatever you want, it is everyone's right.  I don't see the progress of science as evidence of god though.  "God" pretty much by definition is unknowable and unexplainable.  When you start throwing around words like evidence and God in the same sentence I think you end up losing me.  God is a belief period.   

 

The vast majority of people that believe in God have reasons.  Those reasons certainly do not rise to the level of proof and some might even reject them as "good evidence" and certainly the evidence is scientific.

 

Faith is not belief in the absence of evidence.

 

And fundamentally we all have beliefs that are not supported by scientific evidence.

 

For any belief, we should be able to make predictions.  If those predictions turn out to be correct, then that should be counted as evidence in support of that belief.

Edited April 10, 2018 by PeterMP

[Kosher Ham]

What ? I never said he wasn't real. 

I said the older you get the less you believe in Santa. 

Accordingly... it seems you need to have got on the train early or you are not old enough to understand. 

 

Seemingly. 

[PeterMP]

48 minutes ago, Kosher Ham said:

Apple a day, keeps the doctor away. 

 

Hmmm...

 

As American as apple pie...

Hmmm...

 

Peter the odds on a coin are 50/50. 

 

Early science though the world was flat. Is it ? 

Prove it is and I will dismiss that also. right ? Maybe not. 

 

I have no idea of what you are saying.

 

Why can't "natural laws" change due to random chance?  Why can't you wake up tomorrow and find that gravity has changed?

 

You asked me why they would change.  I'm not saying that they would change because of God.  I'm saying if we don't have any reason to believe they will stay the same (which science doesn't tell us), why shouldn't we believe they can and will change?  They could change due to random chance.

Why won't they?

Edited April 10, 2018 by PeterMP

[ExoDus84]

1 hour ago, No Excuses said:

Science really doesn't make the claim that we appeared for no reason whatsoever. 

 

For instance, we know that the process of random mutations and natural selection (along with several other factors) has created the biodiversity we see on Earth. So one reason for existence is that the laws of nature allow for this process to take place.

 

I'm talking more about Big Bang cosmology. I'm a big science nerd when it comes to the universe and cosmology. The consensus seems to be that the Big Bang and all the matter in the universe can apparently spring from nothing at the quantum level. Either that or the oscillating universe theory states that there's basically an infinite number of Big Bang's and a corresponding Big Crunch (universe collapsing upon itself once cosmic inflation reverses). So either the universe has always existed or it sprang out of nothing at the sub-atomic level.

 

Either way, doesn't make sense to me.

[HOF44]

Just now, PeterMP said:

 

 

And fundamentally we all have beliefs that are not supported by scientific evidence.

I would phrase it that we all have beliefs that due to our lack of knowledge currently can't be supported.  You attribute that to God, I attribute it simply to that lack of knowledge.