What do you Believe??? (Religion)

[Zguy28]

9 hours ago, techboy said:

 

That annoys the fundamentalists, of course.

 

Kind of like yom in Genesis 1 does. 

[Zguy28]

14 hours ago, PeterMP said:

 

1.  You seem to be very close to polytheistic thinking with the idea of the God the creator and God the redeemer.  Either Jesus was part of God at the creation or not.  Either the redeemer is part of the creator or not.  As part of that, you seem to drawing unnecessary and extra-Biblical lines.  I do not see how it is possible to reveal God the creator and not God the redeemer.  In addition, I would point out that when you consider what happened to Abraham, Moses, and even those that were present to witness the result of Daniel and the lion's den were all special revelation that did not (at least directly) involve the idea of Jesus as the redeemer.

 

Most basically, if God can reveal any aspect of himself through general revelation, I'm not sure why we should reject the revelation, and I'm not aware of a Biblical motivation to do so.

 

2.  For something clearly set up and labeled as a parable, I think that is not an issue.  I also think that was never much of an issue.  The problem becomes places that are not clearly labeled as a parable.  People really did used to think that a universe with the Earth in the center made sense partly from the Bible in parts that are not clearly labeled as parables.  There are people out there that today will still argue that (and that the Earth is flat) based on verses of the Bible not clearly indicated as parables.

 

http://barnabasnagy.com/blog/flat-earth-not-spinning-not-orbiting-but-stationary-bible-verses-empirical-evidence

 

The question is what are you going to do about those people.  What do you do with (at least) large chunks of Genesis?

 

3.  The universe is almost certainly billions of years old (given what I've said in this thread about proving things, I'm not going to out right claim that it is).  If not, you not only have to throw out the part nature proving God, but much of the spirit of the New Testament (e.g. God as the good shepherd).  You are left with a trickster God.

 

The idea of that universe is very old has been cross verified by different methods over long periods of time.  

 

(If the universe is not billions of years old and some how the age of the universe has been "faked", I think the most likely explanation is not "literal" interpretation of the Bible (I put quotes around literal because such an interpretation would be ignoring other parts of the Bible), but that we are a computer simulation of a more advanced society.  The major question then becomes are we a game like Sims or Civilization or are we part of sociology/economic/ecology study.)

 

4.  It isn't clear that the Luther and Calvin supported a heliocentric solar system.  The below is linked on the page you linked:

 

https://www.ligonier.org/blog/luther-calvin-and-copernicus-reformed-approach-science-and-scripture/

I was referring to aspects of God revealed through different means. God only reveals Himself in a redemptive/salvific way through Special Revelation: Scriptures and Jesus Christ. Maybe this is a better explanation: https://carm.org/questions/about-bible/what-general-and-special-revelation

 

Anyway, I think you are not understanding anything I am saying if you get polytheism from what  I said. Maybe you are scope locked or I'm an not explaining well? OR because you are Roman Catholic and I am a reformed baptist? I'll let you get back to affirming basic assumptions that science cannot prove.

Edited April 12, 2018 by Zguy28

[PeterMP]

7 minutes ago, Zguy28 said:

God only reveals Himself in a redemptive/salvific way through Special Revelation: Scriptures and Jesus Christ.

 

I think I understand what you are saying.  I just don't like the use of the word only here, and I think in that sense there is a line here being drawn that is unnecessary.

 

A belief in the creation aspect of God is part and parcel to a belief in the redemptive aspect of God.

 

[Riggo-toni]

The Jewish philosopher Philo (1st century BC) and the Christian writer St. Augustine both write at length about the biblical/Old Testament narrative being largely allegorical, and ridicule those who insist on taking passages literally. Two thousand years later, there are people with little insight to historical context that insist on literal interpretations of a 400 year old English translation.

 

How to reconcile Jesus being divine yet separate from God the father with the concept of monotheism is a debate as old as Christianity itself...Arius versus Athanasius, and the even more arcane yet divisive concept of monophysitism.

 

And yes, Luther insisted that Joshua was proof of a geo-centric universe. What he would not have known...and probably not cared about, was the historical context. Ancient Canaanite cultures worshipped the Sun and the Moon, so the phrase about Yahweh making them stand still in the sky is primarily a message to the Israelites that their God is more powerful and will always prevail.

That said, I believe the entire book of Joshua is religious fiction, written during the reign of King Josiah to encourage the Judahites to reconquer the North following the collapse of the Assyrian empire. It contradicts other books of the Bible (especially Judges, which is much older), and does not stand up to archaeological inspection. Also, "Yashua, son of Nun" sounds suspiciously like a Yahwist revision of Egyptian god Shu, whom Ra searched for in the waters of Nun. Interestingly, the Egyptian god Shu was believed to be responsible for separating day from night - pulling the sun across the sky, which might explain why the Biblical author was so inclined to mention Yahweh's "Shu" - Yashua aka Joshua - made the Sun and moon stand still in the sky.

[PeterMP]

11 hours ago, techboy said:

Physicists have proposed some pretty screwy ideas (like the multiverse) to try to explain how a finite universe can be created without cause and fine tuned for life.

 

I think this is likely a misrepresentation.  The current popularity of things like multiverses in physics is tied to efforts to reconcile quantum mechanics with Einstein's theories of gravity.  Things like string theory (which is badly misnamed as it is not a theory, but a currently untestable hypothesis) indicate that there should be multiple dimensions/universes.  That then works nicely to answer the problem of fine tuning, but I don't think fine tuning was a motivation for the ideas that have given rise to them or the scientists that developed them were directly influenced by the fine tuning argument.

 

(Obviously, especially considering that I don't know the people at all, I can't say that fine tuning wasn't an influence at all.)

 

Stephen Hawkings didn't believe in other dimensions and other universes because it allowed for an answer of fine tuning.  He believed that because currently most of the (best) naturalistic ideas related to quantum mechanics, the origin of the universe, and reconciling our understanding of gravity with quantum mechanics all say these things should happen.

 

(Now, the evidence supporting them is not scientific, and this gets to what makes something "good evidence".  Why is the non-scientific evidence supporting multiple dimensions good enough to think that there are multiple dimensions, but the evidence in support of a god is not good enough evidence in support of a god?)

Edited April 12, 2018 by PeterMP

[Zguy28]

33 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

(Now, the evidence supporting them is not scientific, and this gets to what makes something "good evidence".  Why is the non-scientific evidence supporting multiple dimensions good enough to think that there are multiple dimensions, but the evidence in support of a god is not good enough evidence in support of a god?)

Reminds me somewhat of this:

 

[Riggo-toni]

[Zguy28]

Maybe this should go in a thread dealing with racism, but this is what I believe:

 

 

Edited April 14, 2018 by Zguy28

[FuriousD]

The Clouds, composed by Aristophanes.

 

The story features a philosopher named Socrates who keeps up a school of skepticism.  A nearby farmer manages to come up with all the usual dull questions asked by the faithful.  For one thing, if there is no Zeus, who brings the rain to water the crops?  Inviting the man to use his head for a second, Socrates points out that if Zeus could make it rain, there would or could be rain from cloudless skies. Since this does not happen, it might be wiser to conclude that the clouds are the cause of the rainfall.  All right then, says the farmer, who moves the clouds into position?  That must surely be Zeus!  Not so, says Socrates, who explains about winds and heat.  Well in that case, replies the old rustic, where does the lightning come from, to punish liars and other wrongdoers?  The lightning, it is gently pointed out to him, does not seem to discriminate between the just and the unjust. Indeed, it has often been noticed to strike the temples of Olympian Zeus himself.  This is enough to win the farmer over, though he later recants his impiety and burns down the school with Socrates inside it. 

[Renegade7]

2 hours ago, Zguy28 said:

Maybe this should go in a thread dealing with racism, but this is what I believe:

 

 

I like this from a contemporary application in how he's discussing it, I really do.  It reminds me of the conversation that I believe was being had when the Constitution was being written in how difficult it was to reconcile that the South's economy completely depended on slavery and free labor.  Constitution might not of have been ratified if we tried to tackle that issue right then and there.

 

That clip didn't say "from get-go" which is good, because my initial reaction would've been "do we have any evidence that Joshua was asking Canaanites if they wanted to be Jews first before trying to wipe out their civilization to conquer the holy land"?  Let's not discuss that if we don't have to (at least not yet), because JC tried to reach across the aisle way more then many of his followers today do, and that's not what he's talking about.

[Fresh8686]

I saw this on my wife's FB page and thought of this thread. The point in bold is where I'm at in my life. What need have I for a bible or koran or any man-made ideation of a flawed God crafted by human limitations, when I have the universe right in front of me? I don't need a bible to learn about morality and love and trust, I can feel it working in real life. I can see how it's tied to health, how mutuality, cooperation, and the expansion of more complex and progressive forms of human civilization require it. How our very humanity requires we act and behave in certain ways in order to maintain access to those parts of who we are.

Personally, I can feel my soul and that has nothing to do with Jesus or Mohammed or going to church, and everything to do with risking myself for things that mean something. Opening my ability to feel, considering more than just myself, and expanding my spiritual capacitance. These actions have no direct tie to religion, but direct ties to humanity and emotion and energy moving in certain patterns, manifested through behavior and intent. Interacting and connecting with the mystery of life, each step unfolding more and more of what really is.

I have a spirit because of what I care about and what I accept and reject in this world, not solely because of what I believe or who I ask for forgiveness from.

What's the point of religion when you have spirit? In my experience, it's an ill-fitting shell, that can't contain all that comes forth when you have an authentic relationship with the world around you and the spirit inside you and those around you.

 

Thomas Paine wrote this in 1797 in response to a friend that had been trying to convert him to Christianity.
 

"In your letter of the twentieth of March, you give me several quotations from the Bible, which you call the Word of God, to show me that my opinions on religion are wrong, and I could give you as many, from the same book to show that yours are not right; consequently, then, the Bible decides nothing, because it decides any way, and every way, one chooses to make it.
 

"But by what authority do you call the Bible the Word of God? for this is the first point to be settled. It is not your calling it so that makes it so, any more than the Mahometans calling the Koran the Word of God makes the Koran to be so. The Popish Councils of Nice and Laodicea, about 350 years after the time the person called Jesus Christ is said to have lived, voted the books that now compose what is called the New Testament to be the Word of God. This was done by yeas and nays, as we now vote a law.
 

"The Pharisees of the second temple, after the Jews returned from captivity in Babylon, did the same by the books that now compose the Old Testament, and this is all the authority there is, which to me is no authority at all. I am as capable of judging for myself as they were, and I think more so, because, as they made a living by their religion, they had a self-interest in the vote they gave.
 

"You may have an opinion that a man is inspired, but you cannot prove it, nor can you have any proof of it yourself, because you cannot see into his mind in order to know how he comes by his thoughts; and the same is the case with the word revelation. There can be no evidence of such a thing, for you can no more prove revelation than you can prove what another man dreams of, neither can he prove it himself.
 

"It is often said in the Bible that God spake unto Moses, but how do you know that God spake unto Moses? Because, you will say, the Bible says so. The Koran says, that God spake unto Mahomet, do you believe that too? No.
 

"Why not? Because, you will say, you do not believe it; and so because you do, and because you don't is all the reason you can give for believing or disbelieving except that you will say that Mahomet was an impostor. And how do you know Moses was not an impostor?
 

"For my own part, I believe that all are impostors who pretend to hold verbal communication with the Deity. It is the way by which the world has been imposed upon; but if you think otherwise you have the same right to your opinion that I have to mine, and must answer for it in the same manner. But all this does not settle the point, whether the Bible be the Word of God, or not. It is therefore necessary to go a step further. The case then is: -
 

"You form your opinion of God from the account given of Him in the Bible; and I form my opinion of the Bible from the wisdom and goodness of God manifested in the structure of the universe, and in all works of creation. The result in these two cases will be, that you, by taking the Bible for your standard, will have a bad opinion of God; and I, by taking God for my standard, shall have a bad opinion of the Bible.
 

"The Bible represents God to be a changeable, passionate, vindictive being; making a world and then drowning it, afterwards repenting of what he had done, and promising not to do so again. Setting one nation to cut the throats of another, and stopping the course of the sun till the butchery should be done. But the works of God in the creation preach to us another doctrine. In that vast volume we see nothing to give us the idea of a changeable, passionate, vindictive God; everything we there behold impresses us with a contrary idea - that of unchangeableness and of eternal order, harmony, and goodness.
 

"The sun and the seasons return at their appointed time, and everything in the creation claims that God is unchangeable. Now, which am I to believe, a book that any impostor might make and call the Word of God, or the creation itself which none but an Almighty Power could make? For the Bible says one thing, and the creation says the contrary. The Bible represents God with all the passions of a mortal, and the creation proclaims him with all the attributes of a God.

"It is from the Bible that man has learned cruelty, rapine, and murder; for the belief of a cruel God makes a cruel man. That bloodthirsty man, called the prophet Samuel, makes God to say, (I Sam. xv. 3) `Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not, but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.'
 

“That Samuel or some other impostor might say this, is what, at this distance of time, can neither be proved nor disproved, but in my opinion it is blasphemy to say, or to believe, that God said it. All our ideas of the justice and goodness of God revolt at the impious cruelty of the Bible. It is not a God, just and good, but a devil, under the name of God, that the Bible describes.
 

“What makes this pretended order to destroy the Amalekites appear the worse, is the reason given for it. The Amalekites, four hundred years before, according to the account in Exodus xvii. (but which has the appearance of fable from the magical account it gives of Moses holding up his hands), had opposed the Israelites coming into their country, and this the Amalekites had a right to do, because the Israelites were the invaders, as the Spaniards were the invaders of Mexico. This opposition by the Amalekites, at that time, is given as a reason, that the men, women, infants and sucklings, sheep and oxen, camels and asses, that were born four hundred years afterward, should be put to death; and to complete the horror, Samuel hewed Agag, the chief of the Amalekites, in pieces, as you would hew a stick of wood. I will bestow a few observations on this case.
 

“In the first place, nobody knows who the author, or writer, of the book of Samuel was, and, therefore, the fact itself has no other proof than anonymous or hearsay evidence, which is no evidence at all. In the second place, this anonymous book says, that this slaughter was done by the express command of God: but all our ideas of the justice and goodness of God give the lie to the book, and as I never will believe any book that ascribes cruelty and injustice to God, I therefore reject the Bible as unworthy of credit.
 

“As I have now given you my reasons for believing that the Bible is not the Word of God, that it is a falsehood, I have a right to ask you your reasons for believing the contrary; but I know you can give me none, except that you were educated to believe the Bible; and as the Turks give the same reason for believing the Koran, it is evident that education makes all the difference, and that reason and truth have nothing to do in the case.
 

“You believe in the Bible from the accident of birth, and the Turks believe in the Koran from the same accident, and each calls the other infidel. But leaving the prejudice of education out of the case, the unprejudiced truth is, that all are infidels who believe falsely of God, whether they draw their creed from the Bible, or from the Koran, from the Old Testament, or from the New.
 

“When you have examined the Bible with the attention that I have done (for I do not think you know much about it), and permit yourself to have just ideas of God, you will most probably believe as I do. But I wish you to know that this answer to your letter is not written for the purpose of changing your opinion. It is written to satisfy you, and some other friends whom I esteem, that my disbelief of the Bible is founded on a pure and religious belief in God; for in my opinion the Bible is a gross libel against the justice and goodness of God, in almost every part of it."[1]

[Renegade7]

10 hours ago, Fresh8686 said:

"You form your opinion of God from the account given of Him in the Bible; and I form my opinion of the Bible from the wisdom and goodness of God manifested in the structure of the universe, and in all works of creation. The result in these two cases will be, that you, by taking the Bible for your standard, will have a bad opinion of God; and I, by taking God for my standard, shall have a bad opinion of the Bible."[1]

Have you finished the Bible?  Have you finished the thread?

[Fresh8686]

2 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

Have you finished the Bible?  Have you finished the thread?

 

Havent read the whole thread, but a bit of it and I’ve read a good part of the Bible, all of the Koran, and spent time as a Muslim, Catholic, and Christian. Also, spent time with meditation and eastern religions/philosophies. Why do you ask?

 

 I resonated with that passage based upon my personal experiences, but I apologize if it came across as challenging or bull in a china shop in any way.  

 

The way I see it, people tend to project their limitations onto God or whatever is the substance or impetus of the universe and build sometimes unhealthy stories from it as a result. In my experience it is better to experience or live spirituality and explore the mysteries of life, let it change you, and then start drawing theories, rather than overly cling to religion to the point where it dilutes that unveiling process. 

 

If you dont don’t mind me asking, have you had any deep spiritual experiences that changed your life and played a part in who you currently are?

 

[Renegade7]

42 minutes ago, Fresh8686 said:

 

If you dont don’t mind me asking, have you had any deep spiritual experiences that changed your life and played a part in who you currently are?

 

 

It's okay, I took it as you wanting to get that off your chest and not pointed at anyone.

 

To answer your question:  Yes, I have, big ones and little ones that added up.  

 

So, one that set the tone and saved my life:

 

In my OP I admitted that I was so angry with God and the concept of it, that I turned my back on the whole thing, refused to believe he was out there because of what was happening to me and others and I was on my own.  I'm Bi-Polar, I did not know that then, but I know that now (several years later).  I got expelled from high school, got dumped by my gf who found out I was banging chicks at different schools, and got fired from my job because I wouldn't stop getting co-workers to buy cigarettes for me (I had my first carton before I was old enough to smoke) and that all happened in the period of about 30 days. You can actually see this slide into chaos in my post history I've been here so long.

 

I was also a writer, poetry and short stories especially, and one day I started a story and just kept on going.  I had just finished reading Dante's Inferno so that should give you a hint into where that was heading.  Leading up to this point I was so f'd up that I would leave school in the middle of IIS (saying I was going to the bathroom) and once outside start thinking about which car I wanted to jump in front of (in my head leaned towards buses so I wouldn't flip over them, I would get hit slide down and get run over).  I'd leave my notebook of writings somewhere I could tell someone where to find it in case I finally did do it.  

 

So here I am, in my house, cutting off people left and right and I finally get to the point in what I'm writing that I just stopped.  I started getting emotional realizing what I was reading was coming out my head.  I went to the beginning and read what I had, which was well over 50 pages at that point, then turned the computer off and was praying within a couple days.  I couldn't do this alone, but I didn't know who to turn to or what I was dealing with, I just knew something was horribly wrong.  God has never said a word to me, I'll tell anybody that.  He may do that for other people, but for me when I'm talking out loud in peace, I feel like just talking about it, no filter and someone I don't have to explain anything to, helps and the answer will come to me doing that (if it isn't made obvious to me via signs following that prayer moment).  I have also lost count of the number of signs I've seen and sometimes cuss when I pray (I don't use Lord's name in vain when I pray, but pretty much everything else in English language is fair game considering the circumstances).

 

So smaller example, my parents come down to Hampton Roads this past weekend to withdrawl money from their credit union (want to transfer to different bank, in middle of that).  Neither of them like it, and make it all the way down here and transmission starts going bad, bad enough they can't trust it not to cut off and stay off.  06 BMW, so you know how a parking light bulb is like your college tuition, so when he called me and told me transmission, I said I was coming regardless of the result.  Got them cigarettes and something to eat, dad was at shop owned by guy my parents bought the car from (second one I helped them get).

 

You know how much he charged them?  $200.  I told my dad with a straight face that he had to stop coming down here for this, but if this happened in NOVA this wouldn't of been $200.  Is that all dumb luck? Hey, I'm getting tired, don't answer that, that was rhetorical.  I have a couple questions, but I can ask them based on whatever response you have to this one.  

[Fresh8686]

10 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

 

It's okay, I took it as you wanting to get that off your chest and not pointed at anyone.

 

To answer your question:  Yes, I have, big ones and little ones that added up.  

 

So, one that set the tone and saved my life:

 

In my OP I admitted that I was so angry with God and the concept of it, that I turned my back on the whole thing, refused to believe he was out there because of what was happening to me and others and I was on my own.  I'm Bi-Polar, I did not know that then, but I know that now (several years later).  I got expelled from high school, got dumped by my gf who found out I was banging chicks at different schools, and got fired from my job because I wouldn't stop getting co-workers to buy cigarettes for me (I had my first carton before I was old enough to smoke) and that all happened in the period of about 30 days. You can actually see this slide into chaos in my post history I've been here so long.

 

I was also a writer, poetry and short stories especially, and one day I started a story and just kept on going.  I had just finished reading Dante's Inferno so that should give you a hint into where that was heading.  Leading up to this point I was so f'd up that I would leave school in the middle of IIS (saying I was going to the bathroom) and once outside start thinking about which car I wanted to jump in front of (in my head leaned towards buses so I wouldn't flip over them, I would get hit slide down and get run over).  I'd leave my notebook of writings somewhere I could tell someone where to find it in case I finally did do it.  

 

So here I am, in my house, cutting off people left and right and I finally get to the point in what I'm writing that I just stopped.  I started getting emotional realizing what I was reading was coming out my head.  I went to the beginning and read what I had, which was well over 50 pages at that point, then turned the computer off and was praying within a couple days.  I couldn't do this alone, but I didn't know who to turn to or what I was dealing with, I just knew something was horribly wrong.  God has never said a word to me, I'll tell anybody that.  He may do that for other people, but for me when I'm talking out loud in peace, I feel like just talking about it, no filter and someone I don't have to explain anything to, helps and the answer will come to me doing that (if it isn't made obvious to me via signs following that prayer moment).  I have also lost count of the number of signs I've seen and sometimes cuss when I pray (I don't use Lord's name in vain when I pray, but pretty much everything else in English language is fair game considering the circumstances).

 

So smaller example, my parents come down to Hampton Roads this past weekend to withdrawl money from their credit union (want to transfer to different bank, in middle of that).  Neither of them like it, and make it all the way down here and transmission starts going bad, bad enough they can't trust it not to cut off and stay off.  06 BMW, so you know how a parking light bulb is like your college tuition, so when he called me and told me transmission, I said I was coming regardless of the result.  Got them cigarettes and something to eat, dad was at shop owned by guy my parents bought the car from (second one I helped them get).

 

You know how much he charged them?  $200.  I told my dad with a straight face that he had to stop coming down here for this, but if this happened in NOVA this wouldn't of been $200.  Is that all dumb luck? Hey, I'm getting tired, don't answer that, that was rhetorical.  I have a couple questions, but I can ask them based on whatever response you have to this one.  

Awesome man, thanks for sharing this. Isn't it funny how things happen when we're on the edge of things and something has to give and a breakthrough comes? I have a lot of similar stories like what you posted as well man. I never felt the holy ghost or whatever in Church. I remember one time these baptists were trying to almost force a manifestation of the spirit from us and I ended up trying to fake speak in tongues as a kid so I could finally get to use the bathroom.

But, I also remember on my 1st or 2nd night in jail after being arrested by the DEA and ICE on major drug charges... it was almost 1 in the morning and the whole cell block was quiet and I was just laying there with my eyes closed and saw behind my eye lids the form of a being take shape and send me - to what still to this day - is the purest form of love I've ever experienced in my life. It came out of nowhere and I wasn't looking for it, or expecting it, or on drugs or anything, and it is still one of the most amazing moments of my life. It let me experience that I was part of a family beyond what I currently knew. That all that love and care I'd been pouring out into my prayers, rather than asking and trying to take during prayer, was going somewhere. I wasn't being "saved" but I was loved and in a way maybe even protected? Either way, the love was more than enough and something I've held onto in traumatic times.

I also had an experience not too long ago, where I'm just taking a shower and minding my own business and out of nowhere I'm transported to experiencing Jesus being put on the cross, as Jesus. Feeling what he felt, the pain of each nail, the sadness, and the anger and disappointment of those who were doing this  to him/me and turning their back on love and humanity. It wrecked my **** and since then I breakdown crying every time I see a documentary or movie showing the crucifixion. My body holds the memory of that vision as strongly as if it happened to me (I'm not trying to say I'm Jesus, just in case anyone was wondering. I've been working hard on empathy and sensitivity so that shift of growth in those areas, probably had a part to play in this experience).

And really as crazy as those things are, none of them have changed my life more than what happened to me 5 or 6 years ago in Costa Rica... but I'll hold off on talking about that for now.

[Zguy28]

4 minutes ago, Fresh8686 said:

 I remember one time these baptists were trying to almost force a manifestation of the spirit from us and I ended up trying to fake speak in tongues as a kid so I could finally get to use the bathroom.

Probably Pentecostals, not baptists. As a baptist myself, we don't speak in tongues, or kneel, we just slump quietly in our pews!

[Renegade7]

20 minutes ago, Fresh8686 said:

Awesome man, thanks for sharing this. Isn't it funny how things happen when we're on the edge of things and something has to give and a breakthrough comes?

And really as crazy as those things are, none of them have changed my life more than what happened to me 5 or 6 years ago in Costa Rica... but I'll hold off on talking about that for now.

 

Very much agree.  I can't go back and forth with you on this discussion the way I want to while in the office, but I'm happy that you don't feel alone and you feel that he's tried to remind of that (same as me). 

 

I'll also add (why I'm typing this now instead of waiting), that's there's just somethings that we can't all tell each other, not here, maybe not even period.  I tell ya'll what I tell ya'll because I believe it will help, but yes, if you think that's bad, think about what I haven't told you. 

 

I also have to live with the fact that if something were to happen to me, there's no way to scrub this site of what I've posted and I won't be around to defend it.  It's interesting how I've had this thought process almost from get-go, and I'm not scared of what the two people that know I post like this (my father and little sister) would find (most of it, including stuff that was said out of anger, they already know because I told them to their face).

 

Edit:  I also want to add that I've been baptized not once, but twice, so this whole "who has what right" discussion I totally understand.

Edited April 17, 2018 by Renegade7

[Zguy28]

I'm glad you guys are willing to open up about your stories. Everybody has one, most keep it to themselves, afraid of sounding crazy or are just private. My story is fairly ordinary with one exception. Hope you don't mind me sharing.

I grew up in a normal American middle class home, occasionally went to church at the local Methodist, but it was very formal and I used to fall asleep. I always believed Jesus was a real person, but never understood what he did. Never really even remember hearing it, except from my Mom and that was at bedtime prayers with "remember, Jesus died for all people." I lived my life loosely with women, booze, and fast cars. Cliche I know. Then I had an experience that changed things. My good friend from growing up and later work, went off and joined the USAF. We got into an argument over something related to it, I called him a fool, and we parted ways badly. Well, we didn't speak at all, and within a few years he died after running a triathlon from a aneurysm. I was crushed. Never got to say good bye. I went to the memorial service. His pastor from his time in Arkansas came up for it, since he had become a Christian. That's when I heard the good news of Jesus Christ, what my mom had told me, but also that he had risen. I don't remember much else the guy said except "if you don't know you are saved, you probably aren't." I broke out in a sweat, I left abruptly left and had a literal experience of burning on my feet. They felt on fire, no kidding. I was screaming in the car "Oh Lord please! I'm sorry!" as it felt like flames licking at my feet. My wife thought I was off my rocker when I came home and told her I realized I was condemned and judged and going to Hell. I took out my grand mother's old King James bible with all her margin notes and read through Matthew. Long story short, I was saved through Jesus Christ and live my life for him. My wife soon after put her faith in Jesus as well, and we both were baptized together in the Baptist church where I am an elder.

It was also cool to find out later that my friends family and their church were praying for me specifically throughout and I didn't know it. But God heard them.O Lord, thank you for that.

 

Edited April 17, 2018 by Zguy28

[Renegade7]

11 hours ago, Zguy28 said:

I'm glad you guys are willing to open up about your stories. Everybody has one, most keep it to themselves, afraid of sounding crazy or are just private. My story is fairly ordinary with one exception. Hope you don't mind me sharing.

 

It was also cool to find out later that my friends family and their church were praying for me specifically throughout and I didn't know it. But God heard them.O Lord, thank you for that.

 

I don't mind at all, and would rather be talking about stuff like this right now then whether God created the Universe then who created God.

 

We can come back to that (honestly, I'd rather not, but know it will, its inevitable and I won't run from it), but I think that misses the point in so many ways that I'm glad we're coming back to this.  I asked "What do you believe?" then explained for me why.  I feel like some people that have turned there back on this religion thing don't appreciate these stories, but they are very powerful regardless of what you believe, imo.  

 

We're not sheep, we're people, too.

Edited April 18, 2018 by Renegade7

[Kosher Ham]

If I told you that I was "A" God...would you believe it ? 

Could you disprove it ? 

 

I have another question for you ... how do you think other/similar Gods/religions that are represented technically through religious written word ? 

Are they wrong ? 

Edited April 18, 2018 by Kosher Ham

[Zguy28]

2 hours ago, Kosher Ham said:

If I told you that I was "A" God...would you believe it ? 

Could you disprove it ? 

I can't disprove it. Can you prove it? Maybe die and raise yourself from the dead and appear to many people over many instances, including to several hundred at one time.

 

Quote

 

I have another question for you ... how do you think other/similar Gods/religions that are represented technically through religious written word ? 

Are they wrong ?

 

 I'm a Christian, so yes, there is a necessary exclusivity. I base it on the fact that Jesus rose from the dead. It is derivative. Otherwise, as the Apostle Paul says " if Christ has not been raised, then our proclamation is in vain, and so is your faith.Moreover, we are found to be false witnesses about God, because we have testified wrongly about God that he raised up Christ"

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

3 hours ago, Kosher Ham said:

Could you disprove it ?

Yeah but you wouldn’t like it.

[Renegade7]

3 hours ago, Kosher Ham said:

If I told you that I was "A" God...would you believe it ? 

Could you disprove it ? 

 

I have another question for you ... how do you think other/similar Gods/religions that are represented technically through religious written word ? 

Are they wrong ? 

Why are you asking your first or second question?  This thread is 22 pages full of people's reasoning for what they believe based on acquired knowledge and personal experience.  You have nothing to help your argument that you are a god outside of throwing it out there to see who falls for it, that's not synonymous.

 

For your second question, I think I understand what you're saying, but can you please re-word it, its kind of confusing towards the tail end.

[Riggo-toni]

43 minutes ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

Yeah but you wouldn’t like it.

 

[Fresh8686]

On 4/17/2018 at 12:31 PM, Renegade7 said:

 

Very much agree.  I can't go back and forth with you on this discussion the way I want to while in the office, but I'm happy that you don't feel alone and you feel that he's tried to remind of that (same as me). 

 

I'll also add (why I'm typing this now instead of waiting), that's there's just somethings that we can't all tell each other, not here, maybe not even period.  I tell ya'll what I tell ya'll because I believe it will help, but yes, if you think that's bad, think about what I haven't told you. 

 

I also have to live with the fact that if something were to happen to me, there's no way to scrub this site of what I've posted and I won't be around to defend it.  It's interesting how I've had this thought process almost from get-go, and I'm not scared of what the two people that know I post like this (my father and little sister) would find (most of it, including stuff that was said out of anger, they already know because I told them to their face).

 

Edit:  I also want to add that I've been baptized not once, but twice, so this whole "who has what right" discussion I totally understand.

I feel you. There is a risk to being open and vulnerable about this stuff for many. When we take a position in life, it often means either defending it or facing some kind of consequence for doing so. Personally, I'm not too bothered by it in most cases, but I completely understand it.
 

On 4/17/2018 at 1:12 PM, Zguy28 said:

I'm glad you guys are willing to open up about your stories. Everybody has one, most keep it to themselves, afraid of sounding crazy or are just private. My story is fairly ordinary with one exception. Hope you don't mind me sharing.

I grew up in a normal American middle class home, occasionally went to church at the local Methodist, but it was very formal and I used to fall asleep. I always believed Jesus was a real person, but never understood what he did. Never really even remember hearing it, except from my Mom and that was at bedtime prayers with "remember, Jesus died for all people." I lived my life loosely with women, booze, and fast cars. Cliche I know. Then I had an experience that changed things. My good friend from growing up and later work, went off and joined the USAF. We got into an argument over something related to it, I called him a fool, and we parted ways badly. Well, we didn't speak at all, and within a few years he died after running a triathlon from a aneurysm. I was crushed. Never got to say good bye. I went to the memorial service. His pastor from his time in Arkansas came up for it, since he had become a Christian. That's when I heard the good news of Jesus Christ, what my mom had told me, but also that he had risen. I don't remember much else the guy said except "if you don't know you are saved, you probably aren't." I broke out in a sweat, I left abruptly left and had a literal experience of burning on my feet. They felt on fire, no kidding. I was screaming in the car "Oh Lord please! I'm sorry!" as it felt like flames licking at my feet. My wife thought I was off my rocker when I came home and told her I realized I was condemned and judged and going to Hell. I took out my grand mother's old King James bible with all her margin notes and read through Matthew. Long story short, I was saved through Jesus Christ and live my life for him. My wife soon after put her faith in Jesus as well, and we both were baptized together in the Baptist church where I am an elder.

It was also cool to find out later that my friends family and their church were praying for me specifically throughout and I didn't know it. But God heard them.O Lord, thank you for that.

 

Thanks for taking the time to share your experiences Z, I appreciate it. It's a hard thing to feel that fire and change yourself. For me, what redemption truly is, is recognizing deep in your soul that a line was crossed and living everyday dedicated to not crossing that line ever again. And that sentiment is hard to truly share with people unless they've had that moment of self-recognition of wrong that shakes them to their core like you experienced.
 

On 4/18/2018 at 4:58 AM, Kosher Ham said:

If I told you that I was "A" God...would you believe it ? 

Could you disprove it ? 

 

I have another question for you ... how do you think other/similar Gods/religions that are represented technically through religious written word ? 

Are they wrong ? 

Let's not get into a who has or doesn't have absolute proof debate

Rather than absolute proof, it would be more productive to focus on consistent repeatability and probability.

I can't speak for others, but I actually am open to many religions while belonging to none. I have a connection to Jesus, but I'm not a Christian. I also have a connection with the Egyptian Gods Horus and Bes, but I don't "worship" any of the three (I practice relational equality with all things). I just have connections with them, while at the same time feeling that they are expressions/symbols/vehicles/shapes of the very fabric of reality that makes everything we can conceive of. 

Whether they "exist" in a tangible/provable way or not doesn't matter to me, because there is an energy or pattern that does exist which provided the impetus for humans to begin speaking of these deities. There are things inside us that yearn to protect others, to see the truth, and those things have existed and shaped the direction of human life for the entirety of it's history. These patterns are not only inherent, but essential to accessing greater levels of complexity and potentiality as human beings.