The State of the Roster

[Capt'n Obvious]

Am I the only one not as high on Crowder? I see him being included in top tiers by some and not much disagreement with it. He has majorly regressed this year, has anyone had a worse year returning punts ever? I said at the beginning of the year that I think Desean Jackson had a ton to do with Crowder getting open in the middle of the field in previous years, and this year without that deep threat he hasn't been able to separate as much. The drops are becoming a problem too, not sure whether to chalk that up as a one off or what. He needs to make significant strides next year after taking a step back this year.

 

Also in regards to the pass rush and injuries. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Preston Smith, Junior Galette, and Ryan Kerrigan have been relatively healthy all year. Are we talking about Trent Murphy here? Or interior rush from the D line? I don't really look for a stable pass rush from lineman in a 3-4, I'm more concerned with how they stop the run. Preston Smith has been a ghost the the latter half of the season. Kerrigan is consistent for about 10-13 sacks a year, he just needs help from the other side.

 

When addressing the top tier talent, my view is this:

 

Williams - Elite tackle. Top 3 in the league. Hasn't given up a sack all year on 1.5 knees.

Cousins - Most likely won't be here long term.

Thompson - Great at what he is, 3rd down/change of pace back. One of the best in the league.

Kerrigan - Not elite, but solid, consistent, and durable. Clearly one of the best players on the team.

Norman - Can be an elite corner, slipped a bit this year, could be injury related.

 

Besides that I'd say everyone else considered top tier on THIS roster is good to above average. Scherff could be listed as elite for me if someone with more knowledge can explain why our line (him included) is so horrific at run blocking. Jordan Reed has elite level talent, but he is anchored down by how fragile he is. If you factor in his lack of durability with how good he is when healthy, I think its a wash.

 

Maybe I'm being too pessimistic here, but I'm not seeing all the talent that others see on this roster. Factor in the huge drop off the team will have if/when Kirk leaves, and this is a talent starved roster in my opinion.

[Voice_of_Reason]

10 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

We don't have explosive playmakers. A guy who can win a game by himself with one big play. Doctson MIGHT be that guy some day but it remains to be seen. We don't have any on D.

You said the same rhinf I did with a lot less words.  Kudos.

 

11 hours ago, carex said:

Grant's to good a possession receiver to not re-sign

No, Garcon was too good a possession receiver not to re-sign.  Grant is an average JAG who starts and catches a few balls because he’s a starter.  

 

He’s fine as a 4th or 5th guy.  But I still wouldn’t bring him back if Gruden is here because it will entice him to play Grant over anybody

[Voice_of_Reason]

10 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

We don't have explosive playmakers. A guy who can win a game by himself with one big play. Doctson MIGHT be that guy some day but it remains to be seen. We don't have any on D.

You said the same rhinf I did with a lot less words.  Kudos.

 

11 hours ago, carex said:

Grant's to good a possession receiver to not re-sign

No, Garcon was too good a possession receiver not to re-sign.  Grant is an average JAG who starts and catches a few balls because he’s a starter.  

 

He’s fine as a 4th or 5th guy.  But I still wouldn’t bring him back if Gruden is here because it will entice him to play Grant over anybody

[kingdaddy]

1 hour ago, Capt'n Obvious said:

Am I the only one not as high on Crowder? I see him being included in top tiers by some and not much disagreement with it. He has majorly regressed this year, has anyone had a worse year returning punts ever? I said at the beginning of the year that I think Desean Jackson had a ton to do with Crowder getting open in the middle of the field in previous years, and this year without that deep threat he hasn't been able to separate as much. The drops are becoming a problem too, not sure whether to chalk that up as a one off or what. He needs to make significant strides next year after taking a step back this year.

 

Also in regards to the pass rush and injuries. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Preston Smith, Junior Galette, and Ryan Kerrigan have been relatively healthy all year. Are we talking about Trent Murphy here? Or interior rush from the D line? I don't really look for a stable pass rush from lineman in a 3-4, I'm more concerned with how they stop the run. Preston Smith has been a ghost the the latter half of the season. Kerrigan is consistent for about 10-13 sacks a year, he just needs help from the other side.

 

When addressing the top tier talent, my view is this:

 

Williams - Elite tackle. Top 3 in the league. Hasn't given up a sack all year on 1.5 knees.

Cousins - Most likely won't be here long term.

Thompson - Great at what he is, 3rd down/change of pace back. One of the best in the league.

Kerrigan - Not elite, but solid, consistent, and durable. Clearly one of the best players on the team.

Norman - Can be an elite corner, slipped a bit this year, could be injury related.

 

Besides that I'd say everyone else considered top tier on THIS roster is good to above average. Scherff could be listed as elite for me if someone with more knowledge can explain why our line (him included) is so horrific at run blocking. Jordan Reed has elite level talent, but he is anchored down by how fragile he is. If you factor in his lack of durability with how good he is when healthy, I think its a wash.

 

Maybe I'm being too pessimistic here, but I'm not seeing all the talent that others see on this roster. Factor in the huge drop off the team will have if/when Kirk leaves, and this is a talent starved roster in my opinion.

I agree with you on Crowder, very disappointed in the mistakes he made this year. His dropped TD pass in the end zone against Minnesota was a killer. His muffed punts were killers too. I had/have very high hopes for him to be the quick, uncoverable slot guy but he needs to catch the ball. And, as a punt returner he didn't break one all year did he? 

Also, I think missing Jordan Reed is the #1 issue this team had this year. His presence covers up a lot and makes others look better than maybe they are. We need him back healthy if we're gonna do anything next year. 

As for the overall talent on the roster, it's there but it's hard to see it when everyone is injured. When healthy, the Skins can play with anyone.

[skinny21]

12 hours ago, crabbypatty said:

I think you overate our defensive talent. Yes we're minus Foster and Allen, but everyone else who started the season is still there. For as good as kerrigan, Norman, swearinger, brown, breeland, Smith and Fuller are, collectively they suck ass. 

 

This team has given up more than 30 points 6 of the past 8 weeks, and 7 or 8 games overall giving up over 30. That's more than the Giants, colts, browns etc, more then everyone else in the league. Yet we'd turn our noses up and say the skins are "better" then all those teams. Statistically and record wise they are not. 

 

The state of the roster is not good. We've got pro bowlers at every level of the defense and STILL are one of the worst defenses in the league. I don't know what more can be done.

The easy ‘excuse’ for the defense is that as our dline became average (maybe well below that actually), it affected the players around them.  I mean, defense didn’t look bad against some top offenses early in the year, so which makes more sense... that was a fluke, or injuries had a massive trickle down effect?  

12 hours ago, kingdaddy said:

Can't disagree with any of this...not having any interior linebackers is a scary thought. We are dead at RB outside of CT....need WR's too and TE is a position where we are either old or injured. Need two offensive linemen. All of this tells me it's a good time to let Kirk walk and get one of the top QB's in the draft. If Mayfield or Jackson are there when we pick I'd take my chances and pump some life into this team. Keep Reed and Sprinkle at TE and find a RB thru free agency, trade or draft. Carlos Hyde would be a nice get. 

I really feel like Kirk is not the answer and that we can get this turned around without him as long as we keep building the defense and draft QB in the 1st round. I believe Gruden would love the chance to roll with a new QB that he can mold.

Personally, when I look at our ‘needs’, it’s a matter of weighing what could help, versus what we’re screwed without.  So, if we don’t get a LG and receiver, for example, we can make do... it’s just not ideal.  So letting Kirk walk because we have multiple ‘needs’ isn’t practical.  I can guarantee you that when Ryan comes up for a deal next year, the fans aren’t going to say, well, we need upgrades at these six spots, so we should let him walk.  

12 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

We don't have explosive playmakers. A guy who can win a game by himself with one big play. Doctson MIGHT be that guy some day but it remains to be seen. We don't have any on D.

I generally agree.  Davis, Reed, Crowder, Thompson and Doctson have all shown the ability to make explosive plays, but they aren’t really a ‘take over the game type’.  Not like Bell, Beckham, Antonio Brown Julio Jones, etc.  I’m assuming that’s more what you meant anyway.  On D, keeping to my assumption above, we could use that player that is virtually unblockable.  Related, I was surprised to see that Fuller has 4 picks this year (and Swearinger 3).  I think we have plenty of talented players in the secondary, but they need help from the pass rush.  

5 hours ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

I think the OP is being way too kind to the DL and RB.  Once we get past Brown and Matt they give us virtually nothing when compared to other teams. And again when you look closely at the RBs on other teams nearly every single one has at least one back that is clearly more explosive than Perine and Rob. In fact when you throw in Matt Jones and even Alfred Morris this team has been painfully slow and plodding at running back for years when compared to the rest of the league.  Look closely, pay attention to the other teams. You will see it. 

Before I respond, I’d be curious how exactly I was ‘way too kind’.  Keep in mind that I fleshed out my feelings about them with the tiering I did.  Probably a better reference point.  

21 hours ago, Wildbunny said:

 

I wouldn't put it this way. I would grade players differently as well, as I'd take into account their health and if they're playing a lot or not.

It's not a skill or talent problem here for me, it's a reliability one. Are players reliable? If yes, they would belong in both your Tier 1/2 depending on their skill levels. But in Tier 3 I could stash people that are good, but too often injured to be reliable.

I hear you, but the tiering was in response to a lack of top end talent.  Just have trouble saying Kerrigan, for example, is maybe the best OLB in the league because he’s good (or very good) and stays healthier than the rest.  Jackson is an elite downfield threat... but I’m not going to amend that to he’s a pretty good downfield threat because he misses games.  You’re talking about grading a player, I was grading talent level only.

So, my argument would be that Reed is an elite TE, but we really need a reliable backup.  If the FO wants to move on from him, so be it.  

 

In my thinking, players that are injured way too often, no matter as good as they are does 2 things:

- Take a roster spot.

- Use salary cap that could be useful elsewhere.

Totally agree with this last part.  I wouldn’t move on from him until we have some sort of backup plan in place, but we need to address that backup plan because of your two points.  I’m definitely not trying to say “we’re fine, we have Reed”.  Also agree with the limited snap count and the fact that we should draft (virtually) as if he’s a non-factor.    

 

[FFODC]

I’m seeing a lot of posts saying we need to bring a DL from the outside via FA and draft.  I agree with that but I think we also have a guy in AJ Francis who is flying under the radar.

 

Their could be the potential for Francis to insert into the 3-4 and instead of Vea we grab a more balanced DT for our Nickel

[NickyJ]

13 hours ago, carex said:

seriously need a thumbs down button.  So they gave up over 30.  THey have no pass rush due to injuries and so are vulnerable to big plays which is how LA, Minnesota and NO beat them,

You're missing his point. Who are those people that are injured that's affecting the pass rush? Allen and Ioannidis. Two players. When our entire defense breaks down because of two players being injured, that means our defense has problems. It means our depth is lacking. Perhaps it is really all just because of the DL, bu that doesn't change the fact that it means our defense stinks.

[skinny21]

56 minutes ago, FFODC said:

I’m seeing a lot of posts saying we need to bring a DL from the outside via FA and draft.  I agree with that but I think we also have a guy in AJ Francis who is flying under the radar.

 

Their could be the potential for Francis to insert into the 3-4 and instead of Vea we grab a more balanced DT for our Nickel

Yeah, I’m interested to see how Francis, McGee and Lanier play going forward.  The flip side of that is that we don’t have (ATM) a stud on the dline in our base D...and that’s a problem.  A problem I’d rather not address with “well, let’s see how these same guys do next year (not that you’re saying that).  

 

I really like Allen and Ioannidas at DT, but we’re seeing firsthand the result of a lack of (quality) depth there.  

19 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

You're missing his point. Who are those people that are injured that's affecting the pass rush? Allen and Ioannidis. Two players. When our entire defense breaks down because of two players being injured, that means our defense has problems. It means our depth is lacking. Perhaps it is really all just because of the DL, bu that doesn't change the fact that it means our defense stinks.

1) Foster was also graded quite well in terms of pass rush (not that he did it too often).

2) Nicholson’s range (and Swearinger’s subsequent move to SS) might have forced qbs to hold the ball a tick longer. 

 

More importantly, we’ve seen ample evidence to suggest that 1) our outside rushers benefit greatly from good push in the interior, 2) our corners/secondary perform much better when we have a pass rush, and 3) our run stopping ability seemed better with Allen, Ioannidas (healthy) and Foster on the field.  In addition, Nicholson playing single high affords Swearinger more chances to affect the run game.  

 

So yes, it’s no surprise that our defense stinks... when we don’t have much interior pressure.  It also suggests we need a capable injury replacement/sub for our DTs.  

 

Frankly, I was most worried about our dline going into the season.  Turns out we have/had two quality players there... but the depth has mostly been just ok.  

 

Last thing.  I’ve noticed in years prior that when the defense struggles, you often see guys trying harder to ‘make plays’.  Compton (and others, I believe) commented on it - players need to just do their job.  Unfortunately, we’d see a lot of breakdowns as a result.  Felt better about this early in the season, but it seems to be rearing its ugly head again.  The good news is that it’s an easy fix - you need to trust the guys around you.  Of course, to trust them, they need to execute.  Which means they need a certain level of talent and coaching.  I think this group of coaches can get their part done, but they need talent to do so.  I trust most of these players, but again, I think dline depth can help in this aspect.  

[carex]

56 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

You're missing his point. Who are those people that are injured that's affecting the pass rush? Allen and Ioannidis. Two players. When our entire defense breaks down because of two players being injured, that means our defense has problems. It means our depth is lacking. Perhaps it is really all just because of the DL, bu that doesn't change the fact that it means our defense stinks.

 

that's what happens when you rotate players into specific roles

[heyholetsgogrant]

5 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

You said the same rhinf I did with a lot less words.  Kudos.

 

No, Garcon was too good a possession receiver not to re-sign.  Grant is an average JAG who starts and catches a few balls because he’s a starter.  

 

He’s fine as a 4th or 5th guy.  But I still wouldn’t bring him back if Gruden is here because it will entice him to play Grant over anybody

 

 

Just a random tidbit, I haven't been following Garcon at all this season, I looked him up.  He doesn't have a single TD catch all year.  Desean is having a down year too. Yeah, their respective teams are bad, but still. Maybe we dodged a bullet with two aging receivers? 

[Wildbunny]

3 hours ago, skinny21 said:

Totally agree with this last part.  I wouldn’t move on from him until we have some sort of backup plan in place, but we need to address that backup plan because of your two points.  I’m definitely not trying to say “we’re fine, we have Reed”.  Also agree with the limited snap count and the fact that we should draft (virtually) as if he’s a non-factor.    

We are roughly on the same point regarding Reed.

My main issue here is that, no one in the FO (be it Bruce, Shanny or Scot) thought it would be interesting to find a reliable TE to make up for Reed's injuries. Which have been a recurring mistake for quite some time.

 

Now you grade players on talent only, I put health in it. To each their own I believe

2 hours ago, FFODC said:

I’m seeing a lot of posts saying we need to bring a DL from the outside via FA and draft.  I agree with that but I think we also have a guy in AJ Francis who is flying under the radar.

 

Their could be the potential for Francis to insert into the 3-4 and instead of Vea we grab a more balanced DT for our Nickel

He's an interesting prospect, like Lanier, but both are rather long shot right now. I can see them as rotational, good subs. But no clear starters already. I'd put them in the 'Compton/Doughty type of player'. You know what you're getting, they're reliable, but don't push the limit.

[NickyJ]

42 minutes ago, carex said:

 

that's what happens when you rotate players into specific roles

Right, which still doesn't negate his point. When the loss of two players makes the defense utterly worthless, it suggests that our depth is not very good.

[Darrell Green Fan]

3 hours ago, skinny21 said:

 

Before I respond, I’d be curious how exactly I was ‘way too kind’.  Keep in mind that I fleshed out my feelings about them with the tiering I did.  Probably a better reference point.  

 

You referred to McGee Lanier and McLain as "an OK group".  I think that's entirely too kind. They kinda suck in my opinion.  What we have seen with the entire DL is they had 2 productive players, once they went down the DL is just a bad group.  Lanier has shown a bit in passing situations, the rest are dime a dozen guys who are now playing key roles and it's hurting the defense.

[Voice_of_Reason]

28 minutes ago, heyholetsgogrant said:

 

 

Just a random tidbit, I haven't been following Garcon at all this season, I looked him up.  He doesn't have a single TD catch all year.  Desean is having a down year too. Yeah, their respective teams are bad, but still. Maybe we dodged a bullet with two aging receivers? 

Well, Garcon is and has been hurt, and before he got hurt he was playing with the worst team in the league with possibly the worst QB.  You can't judge him on that.  I would judge him on what he did with the 'Skins and the Colts before that when he had legitimate QBs throwing him the ball.

 

I was never in favor of bringing DJax back, because speed receivers are useless once they lose their speed.  And DJax is close to doing that.  However, the reason that he's having a down year is also due to the fact that he's playing with Winston, who wile being good at some things, has never been good at throwing an accurate deep ball at the NFL level.  And Winston has also been hurt.

 

Garcon would have been the best WR on this team by 34 miles if he was here if he were healthy.  

 

And, I know you didn't expliciatly say this, but comparing Grant to Garcon as a possession WR would be a face-slap type insult to Garcon.  They're not comparable in any way, except their both humans who play football.  

[Wildbunny]

27 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Well, Garcon is and has been hurt, and before he got hurt he was playing with the worst team in the league with possibly the worst QB. 

I know a WR that had one heck of a year last year as a WR. And he was also playing for the worst team in the league and a different QB each week...

 

I agree with you that it doesn't help Garcon, for sure, but still you would expect him to have take the role of #1 quite easily in Frisco. Especially with a HC that used to be his OC and should know all to well what he can do (which is nearly everything).

[skinny21]

45 minutes ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

You referred to McGee Lanier and McLain as "an OK group".  I think that's entirely too kind. They kinda suck in my opinion.  What we have seen with the entire DL is they had 2 productive players, once they went down the DL is just a bad group.  Lanier has shown a bit in passing situations, the rest are dime a dozen guys who are now playing key roles and it's hurting the defense.

Well, McGee had a slow start, but was marginally better (at least for a while there, didn’t notice his play the past two slaughters).  He’s average to above average IMO. Lanier gives a little bit in the pass rush department, but is also a liability vs the run.  Maybe below average?  At least he offers some potential.

 

McClain, I believe I said “if he ever gets going” (play like he did in Dallas).  I also said they’re “... ok”, as in I’m reluctant to call them that, but they’re in the neighborhood.  Not that we’re ok as a team if they all start for us.  In fact, I’d love to draft a first round DE and a mid round NT.  

 

Does that help?  Also, (sorry to sound like a broken record) I broke it down further in my post involving tiers.  

[Voice_of_Reason]

17 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

I know a WR that had one heck of a year last year as a WR. And he was also playing for the worst team in the league and a different QB each week...

 

I agree with you that it doesn't help Garcon, for sure, but still you would expect him to have take the role of #1 quite easily in Frisco. Especially with a HC that used to be his OC and should know all to well what he can do (which is nearly everything).

Yeah, but I think that Pryor is more of the anomaly than the rule.  Sometimes it works out that WRs do well in spite of QB play.  However, it's not always the case.  And factor into that Kyle was also learning to be a HC and an OC/Play-caller ...  I can think of a lot of reasons why Garcon's productivity fell off.

 

My point, however, I believe still stands:  Garcon was a really good, if not great, possession receiver for the 'Skins while he was here.  Grant is not a great possession receiver.  He's an ok 4th or 5th receiver, but should not be a starter.  

 

That's my opinion, and I'm not sure that there is any way that anybody can come up with an argument to change that opinion.  

 

 

[PlayAction]

Another offseason where the Skins need twice the number of draft picks than they actually have.

[carex]

1 hour ago, NickyJ said:

Right, which still doesn't negate his point. When the loss of two players makes the defense utterly worthless, it suggests that our depth is not very good.

 

How many teams are really set up to deal with that?  You think mid eighties redskins teams would have done well if Dave Butz and Darryl Grant went down at the same time?

[Wildbunny]

43 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Yeah, but I think that Pryor is more of the anomaly than the rule.  Sometimes it works out that WRs do well in spite of QB play.  However, it's not always the case.  And factor into that Kyle was also learning to be a HC and an OC/Play-caller ...  I can think of a lot of reasons why Garcon's productivity fell off.

 

My point, however, I believe still stands:  Garcon was a really good, if not great, possession receiver for the 'Skins while he was here.  Grant is not a great possession receiver.  He's an ok 4th or 5th receiver, but should not be a starter.  

 

That's my opinion, and I'm not sure that there is any way that anybody can come up with an argument to change that opinion.  

 

 

Pryor is not an anomaly...

 

I believe Bruce only watched highlight reels of Pryor when signing him last offseason. And probably missed the part that he was targeted 140 times for 77 receptions...

 

That was probably acceptable for the worst team in the NFL, but that's definately not for a team with playoffs aspirations.

 

And don't mistake me, I 100% back you up regarding Garcon as a skins. Now after a second thought, his loss of production as a 49ers is not a clear as it seems as he's still second in yardage and 3rd in receptions for the 49ers, with only 8 game played. Not bad finally. I might have been too quick to judge

 

Now, regarding Grant as we've had this debate many times, perhaps you'll agree with me here. Grant is a quite good receiver. Should he be starting? no. But if he is starting, problem is not in the coaching, problem is because the other receivers sucks.

Grant is not the problem, it's the other receivers.

[markmills67]

1 hour ago, skinny21 said:

Well, McGee had a slow start, but was marginally better (at least for a while there, didn’t notice his play the past two slaughters).  He’s average to above average IMO. Lanier gives a little bit in the pass rush department, but is also a liability vs the run.  Maybe below average?  At least he offers some potential.

 

McClain, I believe I said “if he ever gets going” (play like he did in Dallas).  I also said they’re “... ok”, as in I’m reluctant to call them that, but they’re in the neighborhood.  Not that we’re ok as a team if they all start for us.  In fact, I’d love to draft a first round DE and a mid round NT.  

 

Does that help?  Also, (sorry to sound like a broken record) I broke it down further in my post involving tiers.  

McGee has been slightly above average in my opinion. McClain is another 1 season wonder who we have signed to a fairly good contract. Both count around $5m towards the 2018 cap figure, I would try and get McGee to take a pay-cut and I would release McClain.

 

HTTR  

[Voice_of_Reason]

19 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

Pryor is not an anomaly...

I haven't done the research, so I'll concede the point. 

 

19 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

I believe Bruce only watched highlight reels of Pryor when signing him last offseason. And probably missed the part that he was targeted 140 times for 77 receptions...

If he even watched the highlight real.  He might have just been told the basic statistics.  Who knows?  I doubt he did MORE than watch the highlight real, and I doubt he would understand anything he's watching.  That's not really a cut against his player evaluation skills, because that's not what he does.  

 

19 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

That was probably acceptable for the worst team in the NFL, but that's definately not for a team with playoffs aspirations.

(continue statement) who has to replace 2 1000 yard receivers, including one possession receiver.  

 

19 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

And don't mistake me, I 100% back you up regarding Garcon as a skins. Now after a second thought, his loss of production as a 49ers is not a clear as it seems as he's still second in yardage and 3rd in receptions for the 49ers, with only 8 game played. Not bad finally. I might have been too quick to judge

He had an "eh" year on a bad team with crappy QB play when everybody was in the first year of the system, with a first year HC.  Even at whatever age he is, I think if he was on the 'Skins, he would have been productive at least for a couple of seasons.  I would say that he isn't worth what the 49ers paid, but I'm not so sure anymore.  If you put Doctson/Pryor on one side, Crowder in the slot, and Garcon on the other, I think immediately you get SIGNIFICANTLY better offensively.  

 

19 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

Now, regarding Grant as we've had this debate many times, perhaps you'll agree with me here. Grant is a quite good receiver. Should he be starting? no. But if he is starting, problem is not in the coaching, problem is because the other receivers sucks.

Grant is not the problem, it's the other receivers.

I agree that Grant is a guy you want on your team as a #4 or a #5.  He is "solid." He should not start at any position on the field.  He can play spot duty due to injury or to give a guy a breather, or come in on 4 WRs sets.  That should be his role. And he would be very good in that role.  He cannot be counted on as a starter playing significant snaps every game.  

 

I agree that the problem is not Grant.  It's the FO and Coaching staff in the determination of the roster.  The FO and coaches DECIDED that they wanted Doctson on one side, and signed Pryor as a backup/insurance to Doctson.  This was confirmed by Jay in a presser where he said that they both play the same position.  Crowder in the slot, and Grant as the starter on the other side.  My issue is that they knew this was the plan way back in March/April, and didn't know enough to realize it was a BAD BAD plan. The only other WR they brought in was Quick Unless they thought Quick was the other starter, and he failed spectacularly to win that job, they set their skill position players in the off-season, and the group they had stunk like the south end of a north bound skunk.  Now, add to that Doctson was injured throughout TC and early in the season, and Pryor didn't develop, and now you've got one side with a lot of suck with Doctson/Pryor, and the other with a physically limited player in Grant. It's a total flop of personnel management. And it was as predictable as the sunrise.  

 

The symptom is Grant starting.  But it's far from the problem.  

 

So they essentially neutered their offensive explosiveness before they set the final roster, because they had no other options.  

 

I don't really know who you can blame for the plan.  Bruce?  Jay?  Doug?  (The bigger problem is that there's nobody with responsibility and accountability, and that's for another thread)  But SOMEBODY or SOMEBODIES made that decision, and it was a dumb ass decision from the minute it was made.  

[skinny21]

46 minutes ago, markmills67 said:

McGee has been slightly above average in my opinion. McClain is another 1 season wonder who we have signed to a fairly good contract. Both count around $5m towards the 2018 cap figure, I would try and get McGee to take a pay-cut and I would release McClain.

 

HTTR  

I’m not sure about cap savings in regards to McClain, but I would at least hang on to him until we have something else in place.  

 

More generally, I don’t mind the signings of guys like the Macs, Paea, etc., but the FO shouldn’t consider them ‘solutions’.  Pay them if you feel like you need some decent players (and maybe they pan out to be more than that), but draft guys to compete with (and hopefully overtake) them.  

 

 

[Darrell Green Fan]

15 hours ago, skinny21 said:

Well, McGee had a slow start, but was marginally better (at least for a while there, didn’t notice his play the past two slaughters).  He’s average to above average IMO. Lanier gives a little bit in the pass rush department, but is also a liability vs the run.  Maybe below average?  At least he offers some potential.

 

McClain, I believe I said “if he ever gets going” (play like he did in Dallas).  I also said they’re “... ok”, as in I’m reluctant to call them that, but they’re in the neighborhood.  Not that we’re ok as a team if they all start for us.  In fact, I’d love to draft a first round DE and a mid round NT.  

 

Does that help?  Also, (sorry to sound like a broken record) I broke it down further in my post involving tiers.  

 

So you have concluded that one player after a slow start became only marginally better, another  only offers only a little pass rush ability but is a liability in the run game and the third has yet to get going at all. And you consider that group "not bad".  Sorry to me that evaluation, which is pretty accurate by the way, spells "bad" pretty clearly.  

[skinny21]

1 hour ago, Darrell Green Fan said:

 

So you have concluded that one player after a slow start became only marginally better, another  only offers only a little pass rush ability but is a liability in the run game and the third has yet to get going at all. And you consider that group "not bad".  Sorry to me that evaluation, which is pretty accurate by the way, spells "bad" pretty clearly.  

That’s fine.  To me...

1 above average player

1 below average player*

1 player (if he plays closer to what was expected of him - ie. how he played in Dallas) that would be average or better

 

That averages to, well, average, I think.  I was equating ‘average’ to ‘ok’.  That’s very different from saying we’re ok at dline with those three as starters or even heavy contributors.  

 

At this point, I’m fine with Lanier as a backend guy with potential, and McGee as a decent rotational player.  As I said some posts back, I’d hold on to McClain for now while we hope to address the position in the draft.  Let him compete for a roster spot.  

 

Ideally - Allen and Ioannidas start in nickel, and our base D has McGee, a mid round NT and an early round DE (who also backs up our nickel DTs).  Francis competes for a starting role, Lanier competes for some reps as a situational pass rusher and McClain is bumped (June 1 cut, maybe).  

 

 

* I wonder if Lanier winds up taking more snaps in passing situations only, which might bump him up a bit... but I’m not factoring that for now.