The Evil Genius Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 The US spends more than the next 9 highest countries combined on Defense. The low hanging fruit continues to be what we spend on Defense. No one has the balls to do anything about it though. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooked Crack Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 1 hour ago, The Evil Genius said: The US spends more than the next 9 highest countries combined on Defense. The low hanging fruit continues to be what we spend on Defense. No one has the balls to do anything about it though. Given how the other 9 countries fare when it comes to military, not sure we should try to be like them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 3 hours ago, The Evil Genius said: The US spends more than the next 9 highest countries combined on Defense. The low hanging fruit continues to be what we spend on Defense. No one has the balls to do anything about it though. People love to trot out this argument but never address the effect of a drastic reduction in our military. Are you willing to give up our role, or at very least extremely minimize, as the world's police? Especially when looking at China, India, and the middle east? That is a yes or no question. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 (edited) And it gets a little more complex than that too. for example. Russia spends a lot. And their military is a **** show. you must acknowledge there will be waste in any program. waste as in sloppy/lazy/stupid waste, but also waste as in researching and/or designing things and bailing on it for some reason, or being wrong and having to start over. im not saying it can’t be done better. Or we can’t make serious improvements. But it’s a pretty complicated topic with high stakes and best I can tell, if you weren’t in the military (at a minimum) you probably don’t know much about what goes on and why to even begin making suggestions about it all Edited June 1, 2023 by tshile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CobraCommander Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 23 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said: People love to trot out this argument but never address the effect of a drastic reduction in our military. Are you willing to give up our role, or at very least extremely minimize, as the world's police? Especially when looking at China, India, and the middle east? That is a yes or no question. Yes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 (edited) 27 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said: People love to trot out this argument but never address the effect of a drastic reduction in our military. Are you willing to give up our role, or at very least extremely minimize, as the world's police? Especially when looking at China, India, and the middle east? That is a yes or no question. It's really not though is it? A 2% (roughtly $16 billion) decrease means that role has to be given up? What about a 5% decrease (roughly $40 billion). The DoD budget is untouchable in DC, thus it's more than likely full of projected expenses that don't have anything to do with accomplishing what you project us losing as a role. I'm obviously not an expert on this. Nor do I claim to be, but I think it's disingenuous to always leave the DoD out of the conversation when we are talking about budget cuts. Edited June 1, 2023 by The Evil Genius 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 13 minutes ago, tshile said: And it gets a little more complex than that too. for example. Russia spends a lot. And their military is a **** show. you must acknowledge there will be waste in any program. waste as in sloppy/lazy/stupid waste, but also waste as in researching and/or designing things and bailing on it for some reason, or being wrong and having to start over. im not saying it can’t be done better. Or we can’t make serious improvements. But it’s a pretty complicated topic with high stakes and best I can tell, if you weren’t in the military (at a minimum) you probably don’t know much about what goes on and why to even begin making suggestions about it all Yup. And I've called it out. Anyone can search for my post about the $30k walkie talkies. But if you are calling for a major, systemic shift from us spending as much as our next 10 allies or whatever, then my basic question tells me if you're serious or not. 8 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said: It's really not though is it? A 2% (roughtly $16 billion) decrease means that role has to be given up? What about a 5% decrease (roughly $40 billion). The DoD budget is untouchable in DC, thus it's more than likely full of projected expenses that don't have anything to do with accomplishing what you project us losing as a role. I'm obviously not an expert on this. Nor do I claim to be, but I think it's disingenuous to always leave the DoD out of the conversation when we are talking about budget cuts. Oh, so you're just for a haircut. That's different then what I'm referring to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 17 minutes ago, CobraCommander said: Yes. Okay, and what would you see as the future of things like freedom of navigation of the seas in our absence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CobraCommander Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 Just now, TheGreatBuzz said: Okay, and what would you see as the future of things like freedom of navigation of the seas in our absence? Are we talking about pirates in regard to private companies moving shipping containers around the world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Wiggles Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 Anyone who wants to cut military spending is a communist. 🤪 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 3 minutes ago, CobraCommander said: Are we talking about pirates in regard to private companies moving shipping containers around the world? Partly. Also, nations that like to cause headaches (China and Iran). Drug runners down in the Gulf. Human smugglers out of Asia. The list goes on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsmarydu Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 14 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said: Oh, so you're just for a haircut. That's different then what I'm referring to. I see you've done some time in a Naval barber chair. No ****....I have & it wasn't pretty. I want THIS country safe, I don't care what it costs in dollars. It costs much more if we're talking about lives. Give that some thought. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 5 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said: I'm obviously not an expert on this. Nor do I claim to be, but I think it's disingenuous to always leave the DoD out of the conversation when we are talking about budget cuts. Well yeah, you’re right. my contention, and I think his, was the comparison to the other 9 countries. Which is a common talking point. They don’t have the role we have. So, being like them means giving it up. They aren’t as good as us, being like them means not being as good as we are. Etc. but I think it’s perfectly reasonable to say they need to be kept on check. and I get it if it was not your point that we should be like them, but it often feels like that is the point when people say that 🤷♂️ 29 minutes ago, CobraCommander said: Yes. I used to think this. but I realized something - after decades of being what we are, I don’t think you can simply go “oh our bad we’re done” and walk away there are people that thing retribution/vengeance is in order. I think once you get as far along as we have, you’re committed for the long haul. I may be wrong. It’s just a feeling I can’t shake. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 The “next 9 countries” thing is just a line Bernie Bros are trained to say when they’re trying to convince you to pay for their meds. It’s completely meaningless in any legitimate context. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 11 minutes ago, Captain Wiggles said: Anyone who wants to cut military spending is a communist. 🤪 Communists have militaries too. I think most people that discuss the subject, are just ignorant. Also just to be clear - I’m ignorant on it too. I just accept that and don’t pretend we can just cut significant money and that won’t potentially have negative consequences. and I’d defer to people that aren’t ignorant on the topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 The other day I made a comment about the great thing about ES was the experts and knowing who to listen to. I'd listen to me when it comes to freedom of navigation operations. 1 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 I’m also in not sure how much we’re supposed to trust public information on things like how much China spends on its military. the general opinion seems to be that you can’t trust anything they say. So I’m not sure how reliable that type of information is 🤷♂️ 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CobraCommander Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 Just now, TheGreatBuzz said: Partly. Also, nations that like to cause headaches (China and Iran). Drug runners down in the Gulf. Human smugglers out of Asia. The list goes on. Private shipping companies can spend their own money on protecting their ships. Drug runners from other countries aren't my problem. Maybe we need to work on addiction issues here at home in order to slow this trade. Make drugs legal as far as I'm concerned. Make it safe for Americans and use the savings from military spending on helping those with addiction issues. See Portugal. Asia can police itself when it comes to human trafficking as far as I am concerned. I don't like it but I don't see why my tax dollars should go to combating this unless the issue is that they are being trafficked to America. How many ships get inspected at our ports? Spend the savings on checking incoming ships from Asia. Sounds like the majority of the trafficking is between Asian and Middle Eastern countries. I don't want to police the globe. I want a better life for Americans here at home, with my tax dollars going to help those people in all aspects of life including but not limited to education and healthcare. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LD0506 Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 We have poured the national treasure into our military and people piss n moan about it all the time, myself included in some places, but right now, with the war in Ukraine, you are seeing where it went and what you got for all that money. VAST quatities are spent on non-flashy items but infrastructure wins wars. Our ability to project not only materiel but the ability to handle it in all the support equipment and personnel is an expensive item but would anyone be happy to see our guys loading ammo boxes one at a time into trucks the way Russia is doing? Put a price on deterrence, was that money wasted? If the othe guy looks at what we've got and just says "hell no" was that wasted? If they start **** but dial it back when the fleet moves into range without a shot being fired, was that wasted? There is a lot of money wasted and many times it is a result of political decisions made to buy senators with jobs in their state, etc. But when the **** starts, I want the best, all of the best, too much of the best in our guys hands at the tip of the spear. 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Wiggles Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 1 minute ago, tshile said: Communists have militaries too. Yeah crappy ill-equipped ones. 🤪 To clarify my post. A certain segment of our population views any cuts in military spending to be treasonous and unpatriotic. Ya know the same way they view certain isms that start with say an s or c. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 2 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said: I'd listen to me when it comes to freedom of navigation operations. Could you imagine the impact a global shipping crisis wou…… wait a minute…. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 (edited) 12 minutes ago, CobraCommander said: Private shipping companies can spend their own money on protecting their ships. There is a reason this doesn't happen now. Short story, do you want a bunch of armed, privatized security groups out on the open ocean enforcing whatever version of maritime law they like? Keep in mind they need more than just rifles. 25mm gets used and even the 5" is needed. 12 minutes ago, CobraCommander said: Drug runners from other countries aren't my problem. Maybe we need to work on addiction issues here at home in order to slow this trade. Make drugs legal as far as I'm concerned. Make it safe for Americans and use the savings from military spending on helping those with addiction issues. See Portugal. I'm going to leave thos alone as it gets into drug policy. But just imagine the tidalwave of drugs into our country if the Navy wasn't out stopping them. 12 minutes ago, CobraCommander said: Asia can police itself when it comes to human trafficking as far as I am concerned. I don't like it but I don't see why my tax dollars should go to combating this unless the issue is that they are being trafficked to America. How many ships get inspected at our ports? Spend the savings on checking incoming ships from Asia. Sounds like the majority of the trafficking is between Asian and Middle Eastern countries. Tell me you've never stopped a ship with a container of women without telling me you've never stopped a ship with a container of women. JFC dude, imagine that was your mother. Be a human being. And that is usually about where i realize a person isnt worth talking to. Edited June 1, 2023 by TheGreatBuzz 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CobraCommander Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 Just now, TheGreatBuzz said: There is a reason this doesn't happen now. Short story, do you want a bunch of armed, privatized security groups out on the open ocean enforcing whatever version of maritime law they like? Keep in mind they need more than just rifles. 25mm gets used and even the 5" is needed. I'm going to leave thos alone as it gets into drug policy. But just imagine the tidalwave of drugs into our country if the Navy wasn't out stopping them. Tell me you've never stopped a ship with a container of women with telling me you've never stopped a ship with a container of women. JFC dude, imagine that was your mother. Be a human being. And that is usually about where i realize a person isnt worth talking to. 1) Sure, not my problem. 2) So you're saying the drugs will be cheaper? 3) I'm not condoning human trafficking. It's abhorrent. At what point does it become each countries responsibility to end this, especially the ones where it is the most common? Sorry you feel that way. You seem rather inflexible when it comes to issues that concern you personally, similar to our discussion regarding gun ownership vs drunk driving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted June 1, 2023 Share Posted June 1, 2023 36 minutes ago, TradeTheBeal! said: The “next 9 countries” thing is just a line Bernie Bros are trained to say when they’re trying to convince you to pay for their meds. It’s completely meaningless in any legitimate context. Except I'm not a Bernie Bro so the rest of what you said is just mazda mazda mazda. 🙂 It's a useful point because what we allegedly spend on Defense dwarfs China..who is the current GOP boogeyman. 37 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said: The other day I made a comment about the great thing about ES was the experts and knowing who to listen to. I'd listen to me when it comes to freedom of navigation operations. And I'd defer to my Pops...and you. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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