The McGlouaeiouandsometimesygghhggain Kool-Aid - No thanks. I'll stick to coffee.

[Skinsinparadise]

10 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

This is a great post in abstract, but it makes me wonder about the Reese comparison. He went out last year and spent heavily in free agency and so far has been rewarded by a playoff birth. How much of that is because of Spags vs the FAs is to be debated, but that was one of the few times where FA has worked in the offseason. I would hate for us to go back to the Vinny days of bringing in FAs on Redskins One and not letting them leave until they'd signed a contract. 

 

One thing that @zoony didn't point out that's kinda been hinted at is that the front office has gone from being one of the mentality of paying other teams players to paying our own players. We lost a number of talented FAs over the years, including guys like Ryan Clark and Antonio Pierce. But we had a reputation for not paying our own players, and suddenly whoever came in with the big FA contract was seen as the "locker room leader". By paying Kerrigan, Williams and Reed he's done the first bit of establishing this identity here. Even with keeping Kirk for that one year he's done a bit of it instead of letting him go. 

 

 

I get the point and agree to an extent.   But I don't think it has to be one extreme to the other.   Scot has said multiple times its important to reward and keep players in house and so far he has shown he follows up on it, too.  I think we can hit on some bigger FAs, too.   Most of what am about to say doesn't relate to your point but I'll use your post to launch mine.

 

I don't think Scot or any GM walks on water.  I disagree with a lot of the hits on Scot that I read which I find to be more or less negative spin based on frustration more than logic.   i am not picking on any poster or one point but just various things I've read over time like: he didn't find late rounders even though Jarrett was really good, its not his fault that he had a fluke injury.  Even though he landed some decent undrafted FAs -- they don't count since they weren't drafted.  Doctson got hurt = Scot's fault and we aren't going to wait for 2017 to judge the pick.   Some of the young guys are works in progress (that's common) like Preston Smith, Fuller -- they aren't busts.   Su'a isn't a real starter since he was a nickel LB so he really doesn't count.    Statistically if you get a role player out of your 5th rounder, that's a hit pick -- but nope not for Scot -- both of his 5th rounders are role players, but evidently that = busts.  Which team doesn't have their 5th rounders as a big time starter?    

 

And even the Scherff-Leonard Williams comparisons. Lets run for argument sake that Williams is the better player.  That's some kind of crime, that he hit on his pick and the pick after was even better -- like that never happens?    Teams actually outright fail with top 10 picks all the time.  Look at the Giants, just 4 picks below our pick, Flowers is a train wreck, our player is a pro bowler.   And, teams nail most of their bargain basement FAs -- so what's wrong with Scot?  I showed this on another thread, some of the teams that people say nail FAs, are striking out at least as much if not more with these flea market signings than we are.    

 

Other teams sign Reyes type FAs all the time and they bomb.  It's not the exception but the rule.  We talk about the Giants in FA, if you go through their low cost Reyes type signings, its bomb after bomb after bomb with an occasional modest hit.   It's been the same here by the way, we remember the high profile FAs but forget the David Pattens, Artis Hicks, Warren Holdman, Vernon Fox, Pierson Prioleau, Jason Fabini and I could give another 30 names easily.  When any team bottom feeds in FA, the results are generally this -- combination of busts or just guys with short lived stints with a rare hit.    But if you judge by some posts, this is abysmal and unacceptable how can Scot strike out shopping in the Jason Fabini aisle?   If so, we should condemn all the other GMs in the NFL and lets go find our version of GM Robo Cop.

 

  Reese from the Giants looks like an even bigger FA dummy than Scot if you go through ALL his FA signings in recent years.  Reese medium price FA's have been hits and misses -- with more misses.  Scot gets hit and fairly so for his medium FA signing for Paea.  OK, that's a miss.  But he hit on Vernon Davis who is another medium level FA.  That's about average.   Not bad.  The medium well of FAs seem to be a crap shoot, too.  The odds are better than the Wallmart signings but the odds still aren't great.  Look at our team with the 4-6 million dollar contracts doled out -- which in today's market would be the equivalent of 5-7 million to guys like Josh Morgan, OJ, Atowge, Randle El, Kemoeatu, M. Williams, on and on on. 

 

This leads to my point which is if you want good odds to get game breaking free agents you shop at Tiffany's.  Reese is a dummy when he signs Walter Thurmund and surprise he doesn't work out.   Then, he looks much smarter when he signs the guy who was the best run stuffer in the NFL the previous season. The guy who lead the league in QB hurries.  And a big name CB.  And he sees the $1000 diamonds in the stores and says, I'll pay you $1500 for it and walks away with three of them.  To his credit, it worked.  I agree it doesn't always work.  

 

The idea that hey yeah Scot shopped at Tiffany's too (Josh Norman) once and also overpaid for a diamond.  That doesn't count because who couldn't do that?  Wow, that leads to your point, yeah people bomb on diamond shopping, too. And its devastating when you miss.  Much bigger deal to get the Norman signing wrong then singing fliers like Reyes and them not working out.  The fact that Scot nailed Norman to me is much more relevant than whether he's the only GM on the planet to have a high batting average picking FAs at Wallmart.   It leads me to trust him to sign other marquee free agents.  That IMO is where we need to judge the dude in FA versus cheap contracts for cheap players.  Is he going to get the big contracts right as opposed to the disposable ones which are in effect meaningless.

 

We've seen enough interviews from Scot to know he doesn't believe you build a team by low cost free agents.  Those guys are just fliers.  You build via the draft.   But I do think they are at a stage when he might be willing to take some risks in FAs and sign a couple of big players in the style of the Giants.   And I actually think the timing is good for this.   The one criticism towards Scot that IMO has some merit to it is this:  he underestimated how bad the defense would be, he knew it was bad but its doubtful he thought it would be this bad and if he saw the writing on the wall, he would have made a couple more impactful signings in 2016. 

 

 

[ThomasRoane]

16 hours ago, RedskinsFTW Next Year said:

 

We definitely have more talent than last year. The line is better and was healthy for the most part, got a surprise with Kelley at RB, Crowder is a stud, Reed/Cousins/Garcon/Jackson. This team is one of the most talented Redskins teams we've had in a long time. It's all coaching. Easily a playoff team with good coaching. 

 

Seriously?  I'll give you the passing game.  The OLine is usually pretty good at pass pro; except for when it really counted this past Sunday.  But my God do they suck at run blocking!!!  Only Trent and Brandon are worth a damn and can win 1v1 almost every time.  Kelley is great at RB.  Love the kid but he gets no help at all.  Moses is still a waist bender (as opposed to being a knee bender) and gets no leverage.  Long and Lauvao can be seen getting dumped into the RB's lap more than downfield blocking.  Go back and watch the game.  Notice how often our linemen are watching as Kelley is getting pulled apart like a pretzel.  Compare that with the giants who were pushing the pile forward every time for an extra 3 yards.   Our red zone % sucks because we can't get 3 inches on 3rd and long and everyone knows it! 

 

Thank God Kirk gets the ball out of his hands as quick as any QB in the league!  Cause any other QB would have been sacked 10 times vs giants and our one dimensional offense Sunday.  None of our TE's can block worth a damn.  It's so bad we have to bring in Ty - which makes us easier to defend because the D knows he's not a threat.  It truly is amazing that Kirk has thrown for over 4,000 two years in a row.  No running game.  Average starting field position sucks.  Best receiver (Reed) can't stay healthy.  No big threat in the red zone. 

 

The coaches on offense did a great job of using what they had.  Which isn't as great as people think when you dig deep.  Defense is bad all around.  Coaching and talent were both lacking.   

 

On offense here's what we need to be elite.  LG, C, RT, TE (that can block and catch), big Receiver.  That's five positions right there.  The coaches on offense masked a lot of deficiencies. 

[Skinsinparadise]

19 minutes ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

On offense here's what we need to be elite.  LG, C, RT, TE (that can block and catch), big Receiver.  That's five positions right there.  The coaches on offense masked a lot of deficiencies. 

 

I think the idea that we need to replace 3 of the O lineman is a bit extreme.   Moses seems to be highly regarded (but got banged up towards the end of the season), Jay, Callahan, and Cooley have gone out of their way to say he's one of the better RTs in the league.  Even if I played along, Ty IMO would be an above average RT.   

 

Metric wise football outsiders has us ranked as one of the better O lines in the league.  I agree LG could be upgraded.  Maybe center too but Long seems far from a disaster over there.   Forgot which national observer said it but wasn't long ago they were saying we have the next best O line in the league after Dallas.  I read Spags interview before the recent game and he was going on about how good our O line is.    So both from an anecdote and statistical stand point, O line doesn't come off IMO as a problem aside from perhaps LG.   

 

Edit:  I'll talk a little out of school but i got a strong sense Scot thinks their O line is good, could be tinkered with to be made even better but its very close to being one of the best in the league.   And I agree we can use a TE who can block, sorely missing now.

 

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

[RedBeast]

I know D is our desperate priority this offseason, but I still want a mauling O-Line. Still believe we need a LG, C at a minimum on O. 

[carex]

Long and Moses are still young enough and new enough at their positions(he was a LT is college) to learn.  I agree about LG.  But maybe Arie could do something.  Also I wonder if we should flip Scherff to LG and play Lauvao or Arie at RG

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, RedBeast said:

I know D is our desperate priority this offseason, but I still want a mauling O-Line. Still believe we need a LG, C at a minimum on O. 

 

Educated guess on my end, Scot thinks the O line is very good and is just one player from being elite.  It takes time for a young O line to gel -- was the case even for the Cowboys to take it up a peg.    TE blocking is a problem

[ThomasRoane]

8 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Metric wise football outsiders has us ranked as one of the better O lines in the league.  I agree LG could be upgraded.  Maybe center too but Long seems far from a disaster over there.   Forgot which national observer said it but wasn't long ago they were saying we have the next best O line in the league after Dallas.  I read Spags interview before the recent game and he was going on about how good our O line is.    So both from an anecdote and statistical stand point, O line doesn't come off IMO as a problem aside from perhaps LG.   

 

I wonder what they use for their stats?  Do they factor in the impact the QB has on the O-Line play?  It makes all the difference in the world if you have a QB who can set protections, get the team into the right play, and get the ball out of his hands quickly.  Also, except for that last play Sunday Kirk has really improved his manipulation of the pocket which helps the O-Line look good. 

 

Moses is excellent at Pass Pro.  But watch the All 22 on runs and you'll see what I mean.  Same goes for Long and Lauvao. 

 

Now, I didn't mean that we should say the hell with everything else and just build an awesome offense.  There are too many needs on defense.  Heck, I'd settle for a middle of the pack defense next year in Yards allowed, Points allowed, and 3rd down efficiency.  The team can't afford to go offense but if an OLine is BPA in the draft or if the price is right for a FA then we should go for it. 

 

Dallass has a good run blocking O-Line and a middle of the pack of the defense.  And they finished with the best record in the NFC.  Because except for the giants (who have two beasts playing inside on the D-Line) they can run the ball whenever they want to.  The Redskins couldn't pick up a third an inches vs the Giants when they needed it most!  Kelley was hit 3 yards in the backfield!!! 

 

A good, running game could go a long ways towards helping the defense.  That defense can be helped in FA but to truly be special we will need at least 2 more drafts; maybe 3.  Can we wait that long?

[Hail2theSkins24]

I think we could use a replacement at LG too, but it's pretty apparent from interviews that our organization really likes where our OL is at. We will not be replacing 3 of those guys this offseason

[50yrSKINSfan]

Just now, Major Harris said:

 

 

So what players had to be shoe horned? 

 

Who was drafted too high?  Player we don't need? [I'll concede doctson here,  but that book is far from over]

 

I really can't believe i have read you say,  twice,  that we aren't in better shape than we have been over the last couple decades. 

 

We just finished with 2 straight winning seasons for the first time in forever (no frozen).

We are on the way up.   These knee jerks are entertaining though.

IMO Sheriff was drafted too high. I went back 15 years and there has never been a guard drafted that high. A couple 7s but one was Steve Hutchinson and most good ones, first rounders, go 15 to 25. Let the Giants have him at 9 as the Giants did not even need him last Sunday. He passes on Wiliams and IMO he has a chance to be the impact player we need on D. In a perfect world, the correct play would have been Williams. Move up to get the safety the Giants got. Take the best tackle in FA not some bargain basement players but a stud. Spend on quality not quantity in FA and the draft. Next year get 2 ILB, either in FA or draft and another good corner. Our D would be light years above what it is now. OK I have heard it before" Sheriff is a pro bowler!" I hope so with the 5th overall pick he should be but how much does he really help? Do we have a good running game? Did we get stuffed on a couple short yardage runs Sunday? Where was Sheriff? Was KC rushed like crazy last Sunday? Did he have D linemen just missing him and pressuring him all day? Are we on the way up? Pos but we are getting mauled by good teams and that does not seem to be getting better.

[MattFancy]

10 minutes ago, 50yrSKINSfan said:

IMO Sheriff was drafted too high. I went back 15 years and there has never been a guard drafted that high. A couple 7s but one was Steve Hutchinson and most good ones, first rounders, go 15 to 25. Let the Giants have him at 9 as the Giants did not even need him last Sunday. He passes on Wiliams and IMO he has a chance to be the impact player we need on D. In a perfect world, the correct play would have been Williams. Move up to get the safety the Giants got. Take the best tackle in FA not some bargain basement players but a stud. Spend on quality not quantity in FA and the draft. Next year get 2 ILB, either in FA or draft and another good corner. Our D would be light years above what it is now. OK I have heard it before" Sheriff is a pro bowler!" I hope so with the 5th overall pick he should be but how much does he really help? Do we have a good running game? Was KC rushed like crazy last Sunday? Are we on the way up? Pos but we are getting mauled by good teams and that does not seem to be getting better.

 

The debate about taking Sherff too high will never end. We didn't take him too high. He's been one of the most consistent and reliable OL we've had the last 2 seasons and made his 1st Pro Bowl this year in his 2nd season. Shame on us for taking a Pro Bowler.

[Skinsinparadise]

51 minutes ago, ThomasRoane said:

 

The Redskins couldn't pick up a third an inches vs the Giants when they needed it most!  Kelley was hit 3 yards in the backfield!!! 

 

A good, running game could go a long ways towards helping the defense.  That defense can be helped in FA but to truly be special we will need at least 2 more drafts; maybe 3.  Can we wait that long?

 

I agree with your overall point here.   Its a better pass blocking than run blocking offensive line, I think we need a Scherff type, a mauler at LG.  And agree we need a real blocking TE.   And agree with your point that just an average-so so defense would turn this team around considering the firepower on offense.  I also agree a good running game would go along way towards helping the defense.   I know its a risky point to make on this thread but on the draft thread I am saying if Dalvin Cook drops to #17, I'd find it very tempting.

[Major Harris]

23 minutes ago, 50yrSKINSfan said:

IMO Sheriff was drafted too high. I went back 15 years and there has never been a guard drafted that high. A couple 7s but one was Steve Hutchinson and most good ones, first rounders, go 15 to 25. Let the Giants have him at 9 as the Giants did not even need him last Sunday. He passes on Wiliams and IMO he has a chance to be the impact player we need on D. In a perfect world, the correct play would have been Williams. Move up to get the safety the Giants got. Take the best tackle in FA not some bargain basement players but a stud. Spend on quality not quantity in FA and the draft. Next year get 2 ILB, either in FA or draft and another good corner. Our D would be light years above what it is now. OK I have heard it before" Sheriff is a pro bowler!" I hope so with the 5th overall pick he should be but how much does he really help? Do we have a good running game? Did we get stuffed on a couple short yardage runs Sunday? Where was Sheriff? Was KC rushed like crazy last Sunday? Did he have D linemen just missing him and pressuring him all day? Are we on the way up? Pos but we are getting mauled by good teams and that does not seem to be getting better.

 

 

 

nope,  next.

 

dallas is where they are today because they invested up front.  zeke and dak have put them over the top, but they are a product of offensive line talent.

[50yrSKINSfan]

Just now, MattFancy said:

 

The debate about taking Sherff too high will never end. We didn't take him too high. He's been one of the most consistent and reliable OL we've had the last 2 seasons and made his 1st Pro Bowl this year in his 2nd season. Shame on us for taking a Pro Bowler.

Guards are not worth picking with the 5th pick. Did you read what I posted about where guards get drafted? Did he help us last Sunday on those short yardage plays? Right in the beginning of the game the Giant Tackle I believe, blew past Sheriff so fast he barely got out of his stance and almost creamed KC. Then everyone says, "KC  stunk it up Sunday." Guess so, with no blocking even Brady stinks it up.

[50yrSKINSfan]

Just now, Major Harris said:

 

 

 

nope,  next.

 

dallas is where they are today because they invested up front.  zeke and dak have put them over the top, but they are a product of offensive line talent.

Yea, they have no receivers, no tight end, no running back, only 2 good QB's, no kicking game, no special teams, 14th ranked D to our 28Th. Yes it is all the O line. Well where did Dallas finish last year with the same line?

[Major Harris]

3 minutes ago, 50yrSKINSfan said:

Yea, they have no receivers, no tight end, no running back, only 2 good QB's, no kicking game, no special teams, 14th ranked D to our 28Th. Yes it is all the O line. Well where did Dallas finish last year with the same line?

 

 

it's dallas, you can't explain ****...i guess the one word answer is romo.

 

remember, dallas was 12-4 in 2014.  so you'll have to try something else. 

 

like i said, zeke and dak put them over the top.  they're completely built around the o-line.  You have to see that.

 

 

[50yrSKINSfan]

Just now, MattFancy said:

 

The debate about taking Sherff too high will never end. We didn't take him too high. He's been one of the most consistent and reliable OL we've had the last 2 seasons and made his 1st Pro Bowl this year in his 2nd season. Shame on us for taking a Pro Bowler.

Great, he is consistent and a pro bower but he is still sitting on his couch like the rest of us watching the other teams playing in the playoffs. Stopping the Giant runners and pressuring Eli would have done more to help our chances last Sunday. 

Just now, Major Harris said:

 

 

it's dallas, you can't explain ****...i guess the one word answer is romo.

 

remember, dallas was 12-4 in 2014.  so you'll have to try something else. 

 

like i said, zeke and dak put them over the top.  they're completely built around the o-line.  You have to see that.

 

 

They have more than their O line, can't you see that?

[Major Harris]

2 minutes ago, 50yrSKINSfan said:

Great, he is consistent and a pro bower but he is still sitting on his couch like the rest of us watching the other teams playing in the playoffs. Stopping the Giant runners and pressuring Eli would have done more to help our chances last Sunday. 

They have more than their O line, can't you see that?

never said they didn't.

 

not once did i say they only have an o-line.  they're built around it.

[50yrSKINSfan]

Just now, Major Harris said:

never said they didn't.

 

not once did i say they only have an o-line.  they're built around it.

You said, "Dallas is where they are today because they invested up front."  so it is all O line that wins games? While the point I am trying to make is that Dallas has a complete team, and they also invested heavy in receivers, QB's TE and a heck of a lot of other good players.

[MattFancy]

33 minutes ago, 50yrSKINSfan said:

Guards are not worth picking with the 5th pick. Did you read what I posted about where guards get drafted? Did he help us last Sunday on those short yardage plays? Right in the beginning of the game the Giant Tackle I believe, blew past Sheriff so fast he barely got out of his stance and almost creamed KC. Then everyone says, "KC  stunk it up Sunday." Guess so, with no blocking even Brady stinks it up.

 

So it wasn't worth picking a guy that has been a vital piece of our team that high because other guards haven't previously been picked that high? That makes no sense at all. If a guy can help our team, who cares where he was drafted or what position he plays. He makes our team better.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

19 hours ago, RedskinsFTW Next Year said:

 

We definitely have more talent than last year. The line is better and was healthy for the most part, got a surprise with Kelley at RB, Crowder is a stud, Reed/Cousins/Garcon/Jackson. This team is one of the most talented Redskins teams we've had in a long time. It's all coaching. Easily a playoff team with good coaching. 

 

I don't understand your post. 

 

Every player you listed was here last year...Crowder, Cousins, Reed, Garcon, and Jackson...with the exception of Kelley. And, when all was said and done, Kelley was less productive than Jones on a per-carry average this year. So, fumbles aside, it could be argued that Kelley isn't better than Jones. How does what you posted support your position that we "definitely have more talent" this year than last year? 

[Major Harris]

1 minute ago, 50yrSKINSfan said:

You said, "Dallas is where they are today because they invested up front."  so it is all O line that wins games? While the point I am trying to make is that Dallas has a complete team, and they also invested heavy in receivers, QB's TE and a heck of a lot of other good players.

 

 

correct.

 

it's possible to be a complete team, but have a foundation that is largely responsible for their success.  teams win with good line play and / or good qb play.  when you have both, you have a 13-3 team.

[50yrSKINSfan]

Just now, Major Harris said:

 

 

correct.

 

it's possible to be a complete team, but have a foundation that is largely responsible for their success.  teams win with good line play and / or good qb play.  when you have both, you have a 13-3 team.

You are 100% right. I am 100% wrong. 

[Major Harris]

18 minutes ago, 50yrSKINSfan said:

You are 100% right. I am 100% wrong. 

 

 

is this your style?

[50yrSKINSfan]

Just now, MattFancy said:

 

So it wasn't worth picking a guy that has been a vital piece of our team that high because other guards haven't previously been picked that high? That makes no sense at all. If a guy can help our team, who cares where he was drafted or what position he plays. He makes our team better.

Of course it is always worth getting a good guard but my point is that guards are not worth the price at the 5th pick. They can be had lower. It costs more to get a good  DE than a guard in FA. Here are the other guards in the pro bowl. Martin rd1-16th pick. Yanda 3rd round. Osemele 2nd round. Decastro 1st rd 24th pick. Not one guy even close to 5 overall and I think Osemele was let go by someone and picked up by someone else so IMO you can get a guard much easier than a DE. You had Corvette money to spend and you spent it on a land barge.

[Rocky21]

Some good discussion on this very important topic. 

 

As a long timer around here I just wanted to pop in and say how refreshing it is to have an environment where someone like a mod can make disparaging comments on a high ranking Redskins official on a message board owned by The Redskins without fear of reprisal.  There was a time in the not too distant past where a certain mod would harass anyone with any type of comment that could in any way be conceived as negative about any part of the franchise. 

 

I think ScottyMac had a great first draft and a OK second draft (I never advocate taking a WR in the 1st round - the track record league wide is too iffy).  I'd like to see him get some more time to turn the battle ship.  Remember how ****ing horrible our future looked not so long ago?  Patience, my friends, patience.  HTTR!