The immigration thread: American Melting Pot or Get off my Lawn

[visionary]

 

 

 

 

[Corcaigh]

13 hours ago, Larry said:

 

Now, I've got to say that I've been leery for some time of the continuous calls from lots of big businesses that we need huge increases in our H-1B numbers.  I just can't get away from being convinced that most of such immigration is being pushed by businesses, because they want to drive down the price of labor.  

 

 

There is no doubt that the H-1B system has been hugely abused by outsourcing firms like Tata. That should be shut down. Those outsourcing firms are breaking the law because they are not hiring for specific jobs, which is a requirement of the H-1B visa. They bring people in and then find them work.

 

But tech firms who make products here struggle to find engineering talent. 

 

My company only hires folks who don't require sponsorship, Finding talent is a bear. Show me US citizens/Green card holders who have good java development skills and looking for work I can get them a job offer in a week. And it's not about salary, there just aren't enough talented people in the market.

 

Another anecdote for you ... in affluent northern Virginia my son was the only non-Asian kid in his class taking AP Computer Science. And he is an immigrant too.

Edited February 8, 2017 by Corcaigh

[skinny21]

31 minutes ago, Corcaigh said:

 

There is no doubt that the H-1B system has been hugely abused by outsourcing firms like Tata. That should be shut down. Those outsourcing firms are breaking the law because they are not hiring for specific jobs, which is a requirement of the H-1B visa. They bring people in and then find them work.

 

But tech firms who make products here struggle to find engineering talent. 

 

My company only hires folks who don't require sponsorship, Finding talent is a bear. Show me US citizens/Green card holders who have good java development skills and looking for work I can get them a job offer in a week. And it's not about salary, there just aren't enough talented people in the market.

 

Another anecdote for you ... in affluent northern Virginia my son was the only non-Asian kid in his class taking AP Computer Science. And he is an immigrant too.

Having the unique perspective that you do, what are your thoughts as to why the US is struggling with this?

[TheGoodBits]

11 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Having the unique perspective that you do, what are your thoughts as to why the US is struggling with this?

 

White people suck at math obviously.

 

 

 

edit- sorry, stupid one liner in response to a genuine question. Best defer to Corcaigh.

Edited February 8, 2017 by skinsfan_1215

[Corcaigh]

11 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Having the unique perspective that you do, what are your thoughts as to why the US is struggling with this?

 

If I had to vent ... STEM isn't cool here. Parents don't take actual academic achievement seriously enough. Sports are over-rated. Growing up I was captain of two sports teams and no-one gave a ****. Even parents didn't come to watch games. The path of least resistance is picking easier subjects and nurturing GPA while spending a disproportionate amount of effort on extra curriculars. Of course, the best and the brightest here (say top 10-20%) stack up against anyone in the world, but the mid pack are doing themselves a disservice.

[Larry]

48 minutes ago, Corcaigh said:

 

There is no doubt that the H-1B system has been hugely abused by outsourcing firms like Tata. That should be shut down. Those outsourcing firms are breaking the law because they are not hiring for specific jobs, which is a requirement of the H-1B visa. They bring people in and then find them work.

 

But tech firms who make products here struggle to find engineering talent. 

 

My company only hires folks who don't require sponsorship, Finding talent is a bear. Show me US citizens/Green card holders who have good java development skills and looking for work I can get them a job offer in a week. And it's not about salary, there just aren't enough talented people in the market.

 

Another anecdote for you ... in affluent northern Virginia my son was the only non-Asian kid in his class taking AP Computer Science. And he is an immigrant too.

 

Again, granted, I'm just belching out the contents of my uninformed gut.  But I refuse to believe that the US is incapable of producing enough programmers, engineers, or doctors, to fill our economy.  

 

Maybe not enough to respond to sudden, unexpected, demands.  After all, producing those kinds of people does take years.  But we've been in the business of producing, say, doctors, for a long time.  (In fact, we produce a whole bunch of the doctors who now want H-1Bs.)  

 

[Corcaigh]

6 minutes ago, skinsfan_1215 said:

 

White people suck at math obviously.

 

 

Lawyering and accounting is easier to understand than calculus.

[skinny21]

5 minutes ago, skinsfan_1215 said:

 

White people suck at math obviously.

 

 

 

edit- sorry, stupid one liner in response to a genuine question. Best defer to Corcaigh.

Lol, all good.  

 

Weird, (and a bit random) but... I have a buddy who grew up in a rough neighborhood in the Houston area, his family is a bunch of rednecks.  He taught himself how to write code and turned it into a lucrative job in Austin.  Fast forward a couple of years and he hated his job and has now quit to start up a T-shirt printing business.  

[Corcaigh]

17 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

Again, granted, I'm just belching out the contents of my uninformed gut.  But I refuse to believe that the US is incapable of producing enough programmers, engineers, or doctors, to fill our economy.  

 

Maybe not enough to respond to sudden, unexpected, demands.  After all, producing those kinds of people does take years.  But we've been in the business of producing, say, doctors, for a long time.  (In fact, we produce a whole bunch of the doctors who now want H-1Bs.)  

 

 

There is a good chance that the kids of immigrants will fill those roles because at least some of the parents have different values. Again an anecdote for you about the software development team in my company, all US citizens:

21% are white American born here

14% are white European first-gen immigrant

21% are Chinese first-gen immigrant

36% are Indian first-gen immigrant

7% Asian second gen immigrant!

... excuse the rounding errors.

 

 

Edited February 8, 2017 by Corcaigh

[twa]

8 minutes ago, Corcaigh said:

 

If I had to vent ... STEM isn't cool here. Parents don't take actual academic achievement seriously enough. Sports are over-rated. Growing up I was captain of two sports teams and no-one gave a ****. Even parents didn't come to watch games. The path of least resistance is picking easier subjects and nurturing GPA while spending a disproportionate amount of effort on extra curriculars. Of course, the best and the brightest here (say top 10-20%) stack up against anyone in the world, but the mid pack are doing themselves a disservice.

 

It definitely is a problem to me as well, though I have seen some improvement here.

I enjoyed athletics,but most students and parents are delusional thinking the kids going pro or something.

 

We emphasized sports simply as a reward for academics with my kids.

 

[Corcaigh]

Just now, twa said:

 

It definitely is a problem to me as well, though I have seen some improvement here.

I enjoyed athletics,but most students and parents are delusional thinking the kids going pro or something.

 

We emphasized sports simply as a reward for academics with my kids.

 

 

I coach too, and I've had some parents attend practice. We're talking 'bout practice. Practice!

[dfitzo53]

22 minutes ago, Corcaigh said:

 

If I had to vent ... STEM isn't cool here. Parents don't take actual academic achievement seriously enough. Sports are over-rated. Growing up I was captain of two sports teams and no-one gave a ****. Even parents didn't come to watch games. The path of least resistance is picking easier subjects and nurturing GPA while spending a disproportionate amount of effort on extra curriculars. Of course, the best and the brightest here (say top 10-20%) stack up against anyone in the world, but the mid pack are doing themselves a disservice.

It's interesting. By and large parents will tell you they think education is important, but that hasn't translated to a society that values excellence in academics. Even though we do honor academic achievers with things like awards and certificates at the K12 level, students often feel pressure from their classmates to fit in rather than do their best. 

 

It's a culture that I'm not sure how to change on a large scale. 

[TheGreatBuzz]

2 minutes ago, Corcaigh said:

 

I coach too, and I've had some parents attend practice. We're talking 'bout practice. Practice!

Isn't that just parents being involved?  My parents came to most of my practices as their work would allow.  And they KNEW I wasn't going pro.  I sucked.

[Corcaigh]

Just now, TheGreatBuzz said:

Isn't that just parents being involved?  My parents came to most of my practices as their work would allow.  And they KNEW I wasn't going pro.  I sucked.

 

I'm talking about high school. Why would you watch a high school practice?

[twa]

3 minutes ago, dfitzo53 said:

 

 

It's a culture that I'm not sure how to change on a large scale. 

 

I believe a large part of it is our schooling emphasis...STEM sure doesn't seem to be it.

[dfitzo53]

From the teacher's side, I disagree. STEM is all you hear about these days. In many districts it's hard to find a job unless you teach English, Tech or Math. 

 

What I'm talking about has nothing to do with curriculum though. It's the simple fact that it's not cool to be great at school. I don't think anyone could reasonably argue that mentality doesn't exist on the whole. 

[TheGreatBuzz]

12 minutes ago, Corcaigh said:

 

I'm talking about high school. Why would you watch a high school practice?

My parents came to most.  I never thought about it much but I guess there weren't a ton of parents there.  But mine definitely weren't the only ones either.  I don't have kids so I don't know what is normal.  I'm not trying to argue.  I guess I'm just surprised.

 

edit:  for clarity, one of my parents was at most.  I think they took turns.

Edited February 8, 2017 by TheGreatBuzz

[Corcaigh]

2 minutes ago, dfitzo53 said:

From the teacher's side, I disagree. STEM is all you hear about these days. In many districts it's hard to find a job unless you teach English, Tech or Math. 

 

What I'm talking about has nothing to do with curriculum though. It's the simple fact that it's not cool to be great at school. I don't think anyone could reasonably argue that mentality doesn't exist on the whole. 

 

I dunno. I see minimal effort for mentoring and support for the high school science fair and similar STEM activities, while band, drama etc are quasi professional productions.

[twa]

3 minutes ago, dfitzo53 said:

From the teacher's side, I disagree. STEM is all you hear about these days. In many districts it's hard to find a job unless you teach English, Tech or Math. 

 

 

 

Cause the other positions are filled easily. 

 

Just pulling your chain, it has improved and I agree the mentality and expectations are a real problem.

14 minutes ago, Corcaigh said:

 

I'm talking about high school. Why would you watch a high school practice?

 

Gives you more opportunity to criticize and correct the coach? 

I went to quite a few myself.

[Corcaigh]

8 minutes ago, twa said:

 

Gives you more opportunity to criticize and correct the coach? 

 

 

"That road doesn't take you anywhere you want to go."

[Riggo-toni]

Peer pressure has a lot more to do with academic success than most are willing to admit. Asian students compete with each other for bragging rights. White kids make fun of and/or bully the nerdy kids, and the best African-American students are subjected to being called traitors and Uncle Toms.

[skinny21]

It makes me laugh that my (elementary age) kids refer to any kids that disrupt the classroom as "bad kids", but I'm also painfully aware that this is likely to change as they get older.  

 

Now, I'm careful to point out that it could be that these kids aren't getting the attention they need at home, etc. because I don't want mine to look down on them or anything.  I'm also thrilled that so far bullying/fighting/etc. isn't a factor at their school, and this is a very diverse school (tons of Latino immigrants, etc.).  We're looking to move to a different neighborhood, but I've heard some pretty bad stories about the predominantly white school they'd be attending.  

 

Anyway, wish more schools would utilize the IB method of education.

As others have said though, I think the parents and peers have a huge hand in education, with the latter having even more of an impact as they get older.  

Don't know how in the world you fix parents or the culture holding kids back.  

Edited February 8, 2017 by skinny21

[visionary]

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 8, 2017 by visionary

[visionary]

 

 

 

Just shut up already.

Edited February 8, 2017 by visionary

[skinny21]

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/02/08/politics/donald-trump-travel-ban-defense/index.html

 

Trump - EO couldn't have been written more precisely.  

 

What a joke.  The fact that they didn't even (seemingly) try to find out how our vetting works before deciding they needed the 'temp' ban... just completely degrades the argument.  

 

The fact that they didn't (seemingly) question how the EO would affect public opinion abroad (especially in the same 'terrorist' states they are so concerned about), would be laughable if it weren't so (likely to be) detrimental to our safety.  

 

 

Stoke fear by empowering our enemies - check

Attempt to cripple the media - check

Attempt to erode any checks and balances to the Executive branch - check

Create news to push potential corruption to the back burner - check

 

Well on their way...