PleaseBlitz Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 As expected. Will revisit next year or after the next mass shooting, whichever comes first (most likely the latter). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 And remember. This vote was to end the filibuster of a proposal (require background checks on all gun sales) that was favored by (I'm going from memory) 90% of all Americans, and 80% of NRA members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 (edited) http://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/senate-gun-votes-224560 Senate rejects all gun bills Republicans killed gun control bills sponsored by Democrats in the wake of the Orlando shooting. The Senate voted down four separate gun measures Monday in the aftermath of the worst mass shooting in modern U.S. history — showing the partisan paralysis over gun control has barely moved on Capitol Hill despite the stream of continued gun violence across the country. Lawmakers took up two separate issues involving gun regulations: how to improve the nation’s background check system for those who want to purchase firearms, and how to ensure those with terrorist ties do not obtain a gun. But those questions remained unresolved by lawmakers as of Monday night. Instead, Democrats made it clear they want to make it as painful for Republicans to oppose their gun amendments, whether through a flood of advocacy calls to their Senate offices or at the ballot box in November. “Some of this is going to turn into an electoral operation,” Sen. Chris Murphy (D-Conn.), who led the Senate Democrats’ nearly 15-hour gun filibuster last week, said an interview Monday. “I’m going to be turning my attention to the November election. I’m going to take some of my energy and help make sure that people who cast the wrong vote don’t come” back to the Senate. Republicans and Democrats put forward dueling background check proposals: Democrats are reviving the core of a bipartisan plan from 2013 that would establish a universal background checks system, including at gun shows and for Internet sales. But their current measure is broader than the version from three years ago, drafted by Sens. Joe Manchin (D-W.Va.) and Pat Toomey (R-Pa.). That effectively ensured Toomey, whom Democrats want to oust from his Senate seat this fall, would vote against it, and the measure failed on a 44-56 vote. All four proposals needed 60 votes to advance. Meanwhile, the GOP plan, written primarily by Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa), pushes more resources to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System but doesn’t expand the universe of mandated background checks. His measure would also revise legal definitions on who is banned from owning a gun due to mental-health concerns. It also was blocked in the Senate, 53-47. Edited June 20, 2016 by visionary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 Predictable, but depressing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 The NRA is a death cult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) Yikes. https://twitter.com/TheFix/status/745045661599555586 Edited June 21, 2016 by visionary 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Yikes. https://twitter.com/TheFix/status/745045661599555586 They are going to use that theme the rest of the summer and into the fall to tie the GOP to the NRA and being fraudulent in really wanting to fight terror. Because.....its one less sale for their donors. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 They are going to use that theme the rest of the summer and into the fall to tie the GOP to the NRA and being fraudulent in really wanting to fight terror. Because.....its one less sale for their donors. It's fighting dirty, but I really don't mind because there is a large degree of truth to it. The NRA doesn't really support gun rights. They certainly don't support its membership or they wouldn't oppose legislation that 80% of its membership support. Who they support are the gun manufacturers. The more fear, the more violence, the more death... the more they and by extension the GOP like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Predictable, but depressing. I told you. Your options are stack the deck heavily in your favor (senate/house seats), or put something up there that offers something to the gun people they want (and that may be impossible, they have pretty much everything don't they?) They have no interest in compromise because they don't want anything to change about the gun laws, and they know if they give up anything it's impossible to get it back. Why give up ground and let them ban weapons when you can block them from getting expanded background checks? Or you can wait for Clinton to stack SCOTUS over the next 8 years. Maybe trump will make the senate and house slide far to the D's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 I told you. Oh, I knew it too, but there's part of me that always hopes that reason, empathy, and logic will win out over fear, greed, and hate. Hell, even the vast majority of NRA members don't support the position of the NRA anymore. They need to make themselves heard and felt. The sane in the GOP need to rise up too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 The NRA doesn't really support gun rights. They certainly don't support its membership or they wouldn't oppose legislation that 80% of its membership support. Who they support are the gun manufacturers. Yup, remember that when you go on, or read about, rants about 'gun nuts' The overwhelming majority of members of the biggest pro-gun group are for some of the same things you are. Want to take a guess what the numbers of former members look like? The problem is guns are a single issue for the very pro gun people, and for everyone else it takes a back seat to taxes, the economy, national security, and local issues like development, schools, etc. Sucks but it is what it is. Would be nice to see something other than the same old same old: Mass shooting Proposals to ban weapons or increase background checks Watch proposals fail Wait for the next mass shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Yup, remember that when you go on, or read about, rants about 'gun nuts' The overwhelming majority of members of the biggest pro-gun group are for some of the same things you are. Want to take a guess what the numbers of former members look like? Yeah, but that makes it all the worse. If they are "most" than they need to take away the reins and stop being apathetic stooges to the nuttier of the gun nuts. Otherwise, they are accomplices to the nuttiness. Their dues and investments empower the nuttiness to get even nuttier. They aren't innocent for wanting changes. They are complicit in not demanding them. Take control of your damned association and vote the idjits off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s0crates Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) However you feel about gun control, this is a good argument: “I think that’s kind of a fundamental line for a lot of Republicans, and I would hope for a lot of Americans,” Cornyn said. “Any time you’re denying an American citizen their constitutional rights, it ought to be with evidence, the burden ought to be on the government, and it ought to come from a court.” I would like to see the same line of reasoning applied to things like the Patriot Act and NSA spying. Edited June 21, 2016 by s0crates 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 I would like to see the same line of reasoning applied to things like the Patriot Act or NSA spying. And there's the perfect microcosm of everything wrong with politics. Good arguments, but only when they fit your agenda. Very few politicians hold true ideals about important items *and* apply them across the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Looking at the gun vote right down party lines and they wonder why we think nourish government is broken. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 They are going to use that theme the rest of the summer and into the fall to tie the GOP to the NRA and being fraudulent in really wanting to fight terror. Because.....its one less sale for their donors. and the GOP will use the Dems are soft /turning a blind eye to terrorists line....and simply want to disarm you instead of preventing attacks and it's Monday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 I didn't see this in the bills, but wanted to add and this is specifically for you, Burgold, because you raised the issue of a waiting period: If you're going to put language in any bill that makes the waiting period anything more than an hour (you might get away with 2 hours... probably not), then you're essentially going to go up against anyone (and their money) that is invested in any way in gun shows. You make gun purchases take more than 2 hours, and all the sudden gun shows become an unusable venue for purchasing a gun. I don't know what % of purchase are done at gun shows, but I would imagine it's a lot based on how busy they always seem to be. I'm not arguing about the merit of wanting to wait days, or even the merit of shutting down gun shows. I'm simply pointing out that you're going to have anyone who has any interest in them against you from the get-go because you're ruining their event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGreatBuzz Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) I'm going to a gun show this weekend. I'm definetly buying a glock 42. Also going to look for an AR speed loader, some cheap spare magazines, maybe a large caliber revolver, possibly a home defense shotgun, and good deals on ammo. I bet I'm in and out in less than two hours. Edited June 21, 2016 by TheGreatBuzz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) http://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/assault-weapons-ban-supreme-court-224538 Supreme Court leaves Conn., N.Y. assault weapons bans in place The Supreme Court will let stand bans on assault weapons in Connecticut and New York, laws passed in the wake of a 2012 mass shooting at an elementary school in Newtown, Connecticut. Edited June 21, 2016 by visionary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fergasun Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 I am depressed by today's Senate proceedings but hopeful that the public will elect legislative representatives willing to care more about citizen safety than A ratings with the NRA. I don't even think current background checks are adequate... hopefully as we advocate for more restrictive laws at some point we will reach the point of measurable public benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) If you're going to put language in any bill that makes the waiting period anything more than an hour (you might get away with 2 hours... probably not), then you're essentially going to go up against anyone (and their money) that is invested in any way in gun shows. The purpose of any type of "gun control" is to reduce the ease of purchase. A one hour or two hour or seven minute wait doesn't do that. I suppose in an hour anger could cool, but that's about it. If you are trying to reduce terrorism, crime, mass shootings... you actually need a bit of time to dig into the person. Could a gun show work using a model where you go, apply for purchase, and then a week later you go to a store or specified location to pick it up or it's shipped to you? I don't know, but it certainly sounds like we have designed a system that makes it easiest for our worst elements... and we certainly don't want to inconvenience them! Edited June 21, 2016 by Burgold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Could a gun show work using a model where you go, apply for purchase, and then a week later you go to a store or specified location to pick it up or it's shipped to you? I don't know, but it certainly sounds like we have designed a system that makes it easiest for our worst elements... and we certainly don't want to inconvenience them! No, that wouldn't work because majority of the people at these shows (same for electronics, jewlery, etc) are from other parts of the country. This gives you big selection, but it also gives you a bunch of people with inventory they truck around and it's in their interest to not haul it back, and this creates deals you can't get at the gun shop. I'm not a big gun collector, or gun show goer, but if there was something I wanted I'd wait for a gun show because youre going to get a significantly better deal. So if you take away the ability to purchase it and take it home, you get rid of the dealing. You also drive off business from the people that want it the day they decide to get it. And even the people who do go, but decide 'well, I can't take it home, let me think about it a few more day's (which means higher chance of no sale for the vendor.) There is absolutely a system in place where you could purchase the gun and have it shippe to your local shop for pickup when everything clears, this is how you're supposed to do it when shipping guns. You have to pay the local shop for their services. But you're going to have a fight on your hands if you try to do anything to the gun show scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) But you're going to have a fight on your hands if you try to do anything to the gun show scene. Sounds like a fight worth having. I do hear what you are saying. Having done the Con thing I know how important impulse buying is. Mind you, I really don't like the idea of impulse anything when it comes to guns. If you're a serious collector then you'd be willing to haggle, make your purchase, and wait a period of time to pick it up. If you're a mom looking to protect her home... maybe you would or wouldn't. This might drive you off to just buy the weapon at the local gun shop (though the same clock would start after purchase there) As cold as it sounds, I don't really care if changes that might protect your life and your family hurts gun show business. I'd rather your family live and merchants have to struggle a bit. Mind you, I know I'm on the losing side of this argument. If we can't get minor changes following Newtown or Orlando, the chance of getting a major change is practically nil. Edited June 21, 2016 by Burgold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) Oh I get it, and I agree that a more extensive background check and a waiting period could help. I am not aware of facts that back it up, but it sounds good. In the Orlando case I don't think it would have mattered, they already investigated him and could not find anything that justified keeping the case open. I also am unaware of how effective waiting periods are (in any of the mass shooting cases do we have someone that bought the gun the day of or the day before?) But I think you're going to have a harder fight getting something that imposes a waiting period because of how it would affect gun shows, and you'll generated more money/lobbing against it, than increasing the scope of background checks. I think gun shows are big money to the industry. Probably more important than selling any specific gun or style of gun. I think you'd have a better chance of banning ar-15's than trying to impose a 5 day waiting period, for example. And, right now, I don't think you have a very good chance of banning ar-15s... Edited June 21, 2016 by tshile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 Another issue Burgold, is the optics of it all. Cities are the most liberal places in the country, they have the strictest gun laws, and they have the worst gun crime (not just murders, but general gun crime) Then you have an event like this and what you essentially get are the more liberal politicians/pundits trying to bring the rest of the country to their level of gun control. To many, it seems like taking advantage of tragedy to push your policies that are failures where you've had your chance to enact them. The facts and nuance of that issue are irrelevant - the optics, the perception, is bad and sometimes perception is reality (especially when it comes to political issues.) Democrats might have a better chance at convincing the rest of the country to adopt their policies if they can use said policies to make a significant impact on gun crime in areas they essentially have full control over. I'm not trying to push that mindset, just pointing out it exists. Every discussion I have with very pro gun people (which there are a lot of here) includes some rant on how the Democrats can't keep their own house clean and are running around telling everyone else they're bad people (when they don't have 1/10th the problem with gun crime the democrat-controlled cities do.) You have to figure out a way to battle that perception. Years of trying to explain it hasn't worked. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts