The Gun Control Debate Thread

[Burgold]

1 hour ago, Redskins Diehard said:

We do have an idea. Anyone who has an elementary understanding of the weapon has an idea what role those characteristics played.  The next time we read about someone attaching a bayonet to the end of their "assault rifle" will be the first time

• A Justice Department study of the assault weapons ban found that it was responsible for a 6.7% decrease in total gun murders, holding all other factors equal.
  • Source: Jeffrey A. Roth & Christopher S. Koper, “Impact Evaluation of the Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act of 1994,” (March 1997).
• The same study also found that “Assault weapons are disproportionately involved in murders with multiple victims, multiple wounds per victim, and police officers as victims.”
• The use of assault weapons in crime declined by more than two-thirds by about nine years after 1994 Assault Weapons Ban took effect.
  • Source: Christopher S. Koper, “An Updated Assessment of the Federal Assault Weapons Ban: Impacts on Gun Markets and Gun Violence, 1994-2003” (June 2004), University of Pennsylvania, Report to the National Institute of Justice, U.S. Department of Justice.
• The percentage of firearms seized by police in Virginia that had high-capacity magazines dropped significantly during the ban. That figure has doubled since the ban expired.
  • Source: David S. Fallis and James V. Grimaldi, “In Virginia, high-yield clip seizures rise,” Washington Post, at http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/22/AR2011012204046.html
• When Maryland imposed a more stringent ban on assault pistols and high-capacity magazines in 1994, it led to a 55% drop in assault pistols recovered by the Baltimore Police Department.
  • Source: Douglas S. Weil & Rebecca C. Knox, Letter to the Editor, The Maryland Ban on the Sale of Assault Pistols and High-Capacity Magazines: Estimating the Impact in Baltimore, 87 Am. J. of Public Health 2, Feb. 1997.
• 37% of police departments reported seeing a noticeable increase in criminals’ use of assault weapons since the 1994 federal ban expired.
  • Source: Police Executive Research Forum, Guns and Crime: Breaking New Ground by Focusing on the Local Impact (May 2010).  

21 minutes ago, The Almighty Buzz said:

 

 

 

Correlation vs causation. 

This I agree with. But Diehard was arguing that there was definitively zero effects. I don't think it's possible to argue that. You certainly can say there were other factors, but you can look also looked at what happened before, during, and after and say... "Well, there seems to be some effect."

[Redskins Diehard]

1 hour ago, Burgold said:

• A Justice Department study of the assault weapons ban found that it was responsible for a 6.7% decrease in total gun murders, holding all other factors equal.
  • Source: Jeffrey A. Roth & Christopher S. Koper, “Impact Evaluation of the Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act of 1994,” (March 1997).
• The same study also found that “Assault weapons are disproportionately involved in murders with multiple victims, multiple wounds per victim, and police officers as victims.”
• The use of assault weapons in crime declined by more than two-thirds by about nine years after 1994 Assault Weapons Ban took effect.
  • Source: Christopher S. Koper, “An Updated Assessment of the Federal Assault Weapons Ban: Impacts on Gun Markets and Gun Violence, 1994-2003” (June 2004), University of Pennsylvania, Report to the National Institute of Justice, U.S. Department of Justice.
• The percentage of firearms seized by police in Virginia that had high-capacity magazines dropped significantly during the ban. That figure has doubled since the ban expired.
  • Source: David S. Fallis and James V. Grimaldi, “In Virginia, high-yield clip seizures rise,” Washington Post, at http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/22/AR2011012204046.html
• When Maryland imposed a more stringent ban on assault pistols and high-capacity magazines in 1994, it led to a 55% drop in assault pistols recovered by the Baltimore Police Department.
  • Source: Douglas S. Weil & Rebecca C. Knox, Letter to the Editor, The Maryland Ban on the Sale of Assault Pistols and High-Capacity Magazines: Estimating the Impact in Baltimore, 87 Am. J. of Public Health 2, Feb. 1997.
• 37% of police departments reported seeing a noticeable increase in criminals’ use of assault weapons since the 1994 federal ban expired.
  • Source: Police Executive Research Forum, Guns and Crime: Breaking New Ground by Focusing on the Local Impact (May 2010).  

This I agree with. But Diehard was arguing that there was definitively zero effects. I don't think it's possible to argue that. You certainly can say there were other factors, but you can look also looked at what happened before, during, and after and say... "Well, there seems to be some effect."

Complete misrepresentation of what I argued burgold.  Would have thought you were better at reading comprehension. Let's go ahead and ban bayonets, flash suppressors, and collapsible stocks... that will fix everything. 

 

Either way an assault weapon ban will require a definition of that which is being banned. Choose to define it however you want. Go ahead and base it on your understanding of what makes that weapon so good at what it does 

Edited May 29, 2022 by Redskins Diehard

[DCSaints_fan]

24 minutes ago, Redskins Diehard said:

Complete misrepresentation of what I argued burgold.  Would have thought you were better at reading comprehension. Let's go ahead and ban bayonets, flash suppressors, and collapsible stocks... that will fix everything. 

 

Either way an assault weapon ban will require a definition of that which is being banned. Choose to define it however you want. Go ahead and base it on your understanding of what makes that weapon so good at what it does 

It might sound crazy but i think there are psychological factors at work apart from what makes a gun deadly. As an example a revolver is only marginally less deadly than semi-auto pistols, with the use of a speed loader and some practice.  But if we did ban semi-auto pistols and rifles I bet we'd have less of these incidents, or at least they would be less deadly.

[steve09ru]

@Burgold just had this pop up; figured I’d share from what we were looking up earlier in regards to self defense cases: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-61615236

[Redskins Diehard]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2022/05/27/gun-research-social-science/

[Redskins Diehard]

1 hour ago, DCSaints_fan said:

It might sound crazy but i think there are psychological factors at work apart from what makes a gun deadly. As an example a revolver is only marginally less deadly than semi-auto pistols, with the use of a speed loader and some practice.  But if we did ban semi-auto pistols and rifles I bet we'd have less of these incidents, or at least they would be less deadly.

I understand what you're saying. I happen to think that in the hands of an average user a revolver is significantly less lethal than a semiautomatic handgun and a handgun is significantly less lethal than a semiautomatic rifle(in mass shooting situations).  

Every reload introduces a chance for malfunction. Even in the hands of the most trained shooter there is a decrease in volume of fire and accuracy. 

 

For what it's worth I've fired just about every weapon in the Army inventory from 9mm to main gun on Abrams. Qualified on everything from 9m, m4, m203, m249, and m240. Have fired thousands of 9mm rounds and tens of thousands(if not 100k) of 5.56.  

 

Here are some observations.

A semiautomatic rifle is basically point and pull from about 25 yards and in.  A pistol is not.

In hundreds of combat patrols/ engagements I never once used the bayonet lug on my assault rifle. 

I never once used the collapsible stock(it was fully extended everytime we rolled out)

The flash suppressor did not contribute to the lethality of the weapon system except maybe when firing with NVGs.

 What makes the weapon I carried in combat effective were not the things captured in the 94 ban. What did make it effective was rate of fire(function of semi auto and ease of reload) and damage of the round(function of accuracy and muzzle velocity).

 

I think we need to regulate weapons with those characteristics the same way we regulate M4s, and M249s, and M240s. 

 

I would rather someone have a bayonet lug, collapsible stock, and flash suppressor on a bolt action rifle than have a semi automatic rifle with none of those things. 

[China]

 

[88Comrade2000]

16 hours ago, Going Commando said:

If you own an AR and the weapon gets banned what are your options?  Keep it and hide it and never be able to use it without risking serious charges?  Decide to go on a murdering spree out of spite that will end in the police killing you?  Or do you think almost everyone would eventually just end up selling it in the buy back program?

 

Make that gun and others like it a liability and you will absolutely change it's pervasiveness in American households.

What happened when there was an ar-15 ban.

[China]

Police: Shootout erupts over stolen rifle outside St. Louis County store; 3 injured

 

Three people, including a gun theft suspect and two innocent bystanders, were injured in a shootout outside of a north St. Louis County store Friday afternoon.

 

Police said a person carrying a rifle walked into the Wellston Food Market in the 6200 block of Page Avenue around 2:50 p.m. That person did not use the weapon in a threatening manner, according to authorities.

 

After leaving the store, a man approached the rifle-toting individual and demanded the weapon. The individual complied and handed over the rifle. Police said the robbery victim went to a vehicle, grabbed another gun, and began shooting at the suspect. A shootout ensued between both parties.

 

During the shootout, two innocent bystanders were struck by gunfire. Their injuries are non-life-threatening.

 

The man who took the rifle was shot multiple times. The victim of the robbery left the scene, but police believe another man returned moments later and also shot the man who took the rifle.

 

Click on the link for the full article

[86 Snyder]

23 hours ago, Wildbunny said:

Seeing this from the outside, it seems the US politics is either MAGA or woke. Which is kinda weird. 

Please explain what woke politics are.  

[China]

NSFW language:

 

 

[Berggy9598]

Funny that the "criminals will get guns anyway" crowd is also incensed when AR-15s are called assault rifles. Good thing the latter is a complete fallacy or kids like Ramos would be getting their hands on guns that could have allowed him to kill twice as many people. Fortunately, those type of weapons are illegal and almost impossible for a civilian to obtain. 

[Redskins Diehard]

58 minutes ago, Berggy9598 said:

Funny that the "criminals will get guns anyway" crowd is also incensed when AR-15s are called assault rifles. Good thing the latter is a complete fallacy or kids like Ramos would be getting their hands on guns that could have allowed him to kill twice as many people. Fortunately, those type of weapons are illegal and almost impossible for a civilian to obtain. 

Wtf are you talking about? 

[Berggy9598]

12 minutes ago, Redskins Diehard said:

Wtf are you talking about? 

What prevented Ramos from obtaining say an AK47 and killing more people? The same thing that’d have stopped him if AR-15s were made illegal. The idea that school shooters are just criminals that can’t be deterred is garbage. The ease with which they can obtain AR15s is the prime cause of these events. There is absolutely no logic in these pro gun arguments and it’s fairly easy to expose. 

Edited May 29, 2022 by Berggy9598

[Redskins Diehard]

1 minute ago, Berggy9598 said:

What prevented Ramos from obtaining say an AK47 and killing more people? The same thing that’d have stopped him if AR-15s were made illegal. The idea that school shooters are just criminals that can’t be deterred is garbage. The ease with which they can obtain AR15s is the prime cause of these events. 

You're using stupid model numbers to make your argument. It isn't strong.

 

Talk about what makes the weapon lethal

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

2 minutes ago, Berggy9598 said:

What prevented Ramos from obtaining say an AK47 and killing more people? The same thing that’d have stopped him if AR-15s were made illegal. The idea that school shooters are just criminals that can’t be deterred is garbage. The ease with which they can obtain AR15s is the prime cause of these events. 

 

He wouldn't have killed anymore people with an AK-47 than an AR-15.  Both are semi-automatics, he would have just been firing a different caliber round (AR-15 typically uses .223/5.56 rounds vs. the AK-47 using 7.62 rounds).  

[Berggy9598]

2 minutes ago, Redskins Diehard said:

You're using stupid model numbers to make your argument. It isn't strong.

 

Talk about what makes the weapon lethal

Its mechanical make up. Why then is there no outrage over automatic weapons being available? They’re a harmless inanimate object right? 

Just now, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

 

He wouldn't have killed anymore people with an AK-47 than an AR-15.  Both are semi-automatics, he would have just been firing a different caliber round (AR-15 typically uses .223/5.56 rounds vs. the AK-47 using 7.62 rounds).  

My mistake. How about an Uzi?

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

3 minutes ago, Redskins Diehard said:

You're using stupid model numbers to make your argument. It isn't strong.

 

Talk about what makes the weapon lethal

 

A lot of people are clueless, unfortunately.  Like the one senator that wanted to ban certain handguns based on the overall weight of the gun, making a Desert Eagle .50 caliber illegal.  Pretty sure criminals are not running out to gun stores and dropping 2K+ on those to commit crimes with.  

[Redskins Diehard]

2 minutes ago, Berggy9598 said:

Its mechanical make up. Why then is there no outrage over automatic weapons being available? They’re a harmless inanimate object right? 

My mistake. How about an Uzi?

Your argument is not compelling and inaccurate. Do everyone a favor and educate yourself

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

2 minutes ago, Berggy9598 said:

Its mechanical make up. Why then is there no outrage over automatic weapons being available? They’re a harmless inanimate object right? 

My mistake. How about an Uzi?

 

Considering that a fully automatic Uzi is illegal, not sure what point you are trying to make.  Nobody can walk into a gun store and just buy fully automatic weapons.  Instead of spewing a bunch of BS on a topic you have zero knowledge on, do some research and educate yourself.

[Berggy9598]

Just now, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

 

A lot of people are clueless, unfortunately.  Like the one senator that wanted to ban certain handguns based on the overall weight of the gun, making a Desert Eagle .50 caliber illegal.  Pretty sure criminals are not running out to gun stores and dropping 2K+ on those to commit crimes with.  

I don’t give a **** about gun terminology and what fires how many rounds. That’s not the point. The point is the AR15 is the weapon of choice in these shootings because of the damage it can do and the ease with which it can be obtained. If he could have got his hands on a more lethal gun, he would have. He didn’t because he couldn’t, which debunks the idea that access barriers and illegality don’t stop “criminals” from obtaining weapons. 

2 minutes ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

 

Considering that a fully automatic Uzi is illegal, not sure what point you are trying to make.  Nobody can walk into a gun store and just buy fully automatic weapons.  Instead of spewing a bunch of BS on a topic you have zero knowledge on, do some research and educate yourself.

That’s exactly the point I was making. Thank you for confirming 

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

Just now, Berggy9598 said:

I don’t give a **** about gun terminology and what fires how many rounds. That’s not the point. The point is the AR15 is the weapon of choice in these shootings because of the damage it can do and the ease with which it can be obtained. If he could have got his hands on a more lethal gun, he would have. He didn’t because he couldn’t, which debunks the idea that access barriers and illegality don’t stop “criminals” from obtaining weapons. 

 

If you want to sound like an uneducated moron, be my guest.  For the record, I am all for requiring purchase permit licenses for all semi-automatic weapons and raising the age to purchase semi-automatic weapons to at minimum 21 (like for handguns).  

[Berggy9598]

15 minutes ago, Redskins Diehard said:

Your argument is not compelling and inaccurate. Do everyone a favor and educate yourself

Again, all your little terminologies and mechanics are completely irrelevant to the point I’m trying to make. You’re shifting the focus there because the “criminals will always…”, and “banning doesn’t work” arguments are garbage. 

7 minutes ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

 

If you want to sound like an uneducated moron, be my guest.  For the record, I am all for requiring purchase permit licenses for all semi-automatic weapons and raising the age to purchase semi-automatic weapons to at minimum 21 (like for handguns).  

The point I was trying to make doesn’t require me to know anything about guns, nor do I want or claim to. The point is that litigation that restricts or denies access works in the case of kids that commit school shootings, or they’d come armed with a lot worse. You made my point for, you don’t even understand that you made my point for me, and I’m a moron 😆

Edited May 30, 2022 by Berggy9598

[Larry]

21 minutes ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

 

Considering that a fully automatic Uzi is illegal, not sure what point you are trying to make.  Nobody can walk into a gun store and just buy fully automatic weapons.  Instead of spewing a bunch of BS on a topic you have zero knowledge on, do some research and educate yourself.

Or maybe people could quit trying to dismiss his point by quoting model numbers and calling him names, and actually address his point. Which he has stated, and which has been completely ignored. 
 

He was pointing out the fallacy of the "criminals will still get the guns anyway" talking point. 
 

Yes, if a law bans semiauto weapons with changeable magazines, Tony Soprano will still be able to get one. But this kid wouldn't have been able to. 
 

And he is demonstrating the fact that yes, weapons bans do affect school shooters. Because this particular shooter chose his weapon, based on what he could get legally. 
 

----

 

The thread needs a lot less of "I found a mistake, so I'm going to call you some names and order you to not come back till I permit you to". 

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

6 minutes ago, Larry said:

Or maybe people could quit trying to dismiss his point by quoting model numbers and calling him names, and actually address his point. Which he has stated, and which has been completely ignored. 
 

He was pointing out the fallacy of the "criminals will still get the guns anyway" talking point. 
 

Yes, if a law bans semiauto weapons with changeable magazines, Tony Soprano will still be able to get one. But this kid wouldn't have been able to. 
 

And he is demonstrating the fact that yes, weapons bans do affect school shooters. Because this particular shooter chose his weapon, based on what he could get legally. 
 

----

 

The thread needs a lot less of "I found a mistake, so I'm going to call you some names and order you to not come back till I permit you to". 

 

Or we could raise the legal age to purchase semi-automatic rifles to 21 (or higher for both rifles and handguns) and require purchase permits with stricter background checks.  This thread needs more educated people to post in it, including you.