Unofficial "We're Doomed" - Venting Thread

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

If this is the 'unofficial' freak out thread, just WTF is going on in the 'official' one?

 

And can I get a free pass to observe?

 

Hail. 

[TSO]

1. No, I'm talking about their general skill as coaches. If you are below the average coach, then by definition you are not competent. I'm not measuring that by any metric, I;m just saying that is how it is. Deciding who is in that group is a matter of opinion.

 

2. I didn't assume anything. I said that none of the coaches we have fired have done anything to prove their worth since leaving here. Turner , Robiskie and Schotenheimer had other head coaching opportunities. Robiskie and Zorn had trouble even holding asst. jobs. Shanahan is well known and established, but his thorough mismanagement here has disqualified him from other considerations. Spurrier was such a disaster that no one (seemingly himself included) thinks he should have a job on any level in the NFL. 

 

Again, these guys have pretty well proven they aren't very good coaches. There isn't a single solitary reason to think any of them would have done well if stye had been kept here.

 

 

Personally, I don't judge coaches by W-L. I judge them by their decision making, how they develop players and how they manage staffs. And none of these guys (except maybe Schottenheime) did well in those regards here. And I don't judge Gruden well so far either.

 

1. Well, as long as you recognize it's a matter of opinion. Comes off differently sometimes, and I wish more people would qualify their statements showing that recognition. 

 

2. Well, first of all, I never said it was only about time. I think I've stressed enough the importance of a sound, stable FO as well as titles having their proper meaning. Scot is the first legit GM we've had with that title and final say in personnel under Snyder. Head Coach doesn't seem to mean Head Coach here at one point or another, often right at the onset of the hire.    

 

So I'm just not sure about that. I definitely wouldn't be so brash as to claim there isn't a "single solitary reason to think any would have done well had they been kept here". I don't know if Spurrier ends up being more like Chip Kelly now if he had a legit GM buying him the groceries on the level that the Eagles have done for some time now. I don't know if Zorn is at least a little more successful if he wasn't handed the oldest team in the league with no depth after Gibbs left, with Snyderatto running the show. But I admit that's a tough one to assume, lol.

 

 Marty was successful elsewhere. Robiskie was an interim coach, not sure if we should include him here since he wasn't hired in the standard fashion.

 

But I don't think that's all we should look at. A big part of why I believe what I do is how coaches who are successful elsewhere, at least on the side of the ball they know best, struggle here even on that side. Marvin Lewis comes from the Ravens and immediately isn't as good here, with the 21st ranked scoring defense, for instance. Gregg's rankings always looked nice on the surface, but everyone knows there were major issues. He goes elsewhere and resumes his aggressiveness.  

 

Gibbs during his second stint is a good example. I don't think anyone questions how great of a coach he is/was, but he struggled for most of his time here, and the two times we made the playoffs required miraculous runs. I remember constant complaints about how awful the time management was, the poor half-time adjustments, the ridiculous conservative approach, etc...

 

So, I'd have to really disagree here with you. I think it's just way too difficult to say there isn't "...a single solitary reason to think any would have done well had they been kept here"... maybe if you qualify that with "under the same type of environment with nothing else being different". I do agree with that.         

[Rufus T Firefly]

There's nowhere to go with this so I'll leave it here. Again, none of those coaches showed anything to recommend themselves as Head Coaches while here and none of them have done anything to allay that judgment since they left. Just saying they might have succeeded with better support doesn't really have any level of proof behind it. It's just speculation in the face of contradictory evidence.

[TSO]

Again, that's untrue. Marty has. Spurrier went back to college and has had success (albeit, in college, but success nonetheless and that should be taken into account). Gibbs retired, so we don't know, but I'd bet he'd have done a whole lot more elsewhere with a better FO. Shanahan is screwed, but Kyle is currently successful as an O Coordinator. Other assistant coaches as mentioned above have done better elsewhere. At worst, it's an unknown. Your claim is way too much of a blanket one on this.     

 

And of course there is proof on the matter of them succeeding with better support. There is ample evidence to pull from elsewhere to see how coaches can change and, yet, the team remains the same based on their FOs. Great FOs, and organizations in general, can change coaches with next to no drop off. At Head Coach and at assistant levels. Poor ones seem to struggle ever finding the right guy. The more sound and stable the FO, and the better the personnel acquisition, it seems the more likely the coach they hire succeeds.

 

Again, you're refusing to accept any evidence to the contrary of your opinion on the matter. It's too bad, because I think there's a good discussion to be had on it. It's certainly not "contradictory evidence", but if you're going to just shut it down at that, I'm fine with it.   

[ToaCommander]

Positives.

We ran the ball well. Oline did ok.

Sticking to the Run game

Defense is competent.

 

Negatives.

What everyone else said. 

Penalties

Redzone 

Forbath and his kicking.

Tress Way's low hang time kick that led to punt ret TD

 

 

The Rams front 7 looks scary especially Aaron Donald. Running the ball like we did vs the Fins might be a good way to negate that fearsome rush.

[Rufus T Firefly]

Again, I excepted Marty. Spurrier was a disaster in the NFL, and was need, ever going to succeed there, which is why he QUIT, not fired. So, pointing at his college success has nothing to do with whether he would have done here if he had stuck around.

 

One more time- none of the coaches we have let go (except Marty) have done anything to show they could be head coaches in the NFL and succeed. Saying that other coaches do better later on doesn't rebut that, and it's not evidence that THOSE coaches would have done anything with more time here.

 

I just think this has been exhausted, that's why I;m trying to move on from it.

[TSO]

I just think this has been exhausted, that's why I;m trying to move on from it.

 

Then move on from it, stop replying and giving me something to reply to, lol.

 

I think my points still stand. It's not just about the coaches going on and being able to do something or not, as I've stated. You keep focusing on that, and that's fine. I've addressed it enough. Let's move on, right?  

[Koolblue13]

Yes, losing sucks. I'm as posses as anyone. If you can't find more positive then negative, you probably have an agenda and it's wrong and annoying.

[Jumbo]

I know, I'm fine with the structure now (though I'm concerned about Scot's personal issues affecting his role here)... but now we've got so many crying for yet another coaching change.    

 

 

most of our fans are idiots, who cares what they think. Yesterday sucked, but you saw a good team with baby gloves. It was a great GP early and we finally have talent. Gruden will be here a while.

 

I feel for you both. People thinking/feeling most of their fellow Redskins fans are idiots at times is very common. We can be (rightfully) as hard on each other here (same with most boards IME) as we are on rival fans.

 

Remember what was openly and accurately predicted in posting by more than a few (and I posted enough on it) even months ago---that a large herd of "perpetually butthurt" rg3first types would make it difficult to discuss pros and cons Kirk or Jay in particular without being swamped with that stuff muddying the discourse. And it surely has come to pass.

 

Along with other familiar patterns, they still feature that stunning level of double standards/hypocrisy and making up **** in their heads about what happens how and who, and then adding one speculative assertion to another in building their self-validating edifices--which can be boiled down at this time to the centerpieces of: Jay bad/Kirk bad/ Rg3 good/ruined by Bad Mens. 

 

E.G. I was reading Monday morning, and had viewed maybe 15-20 posts discussing the kicker cut. All of the posters had used terms like "FO" or "Scot" or "the organization" in referring to the matter. None of them simply tagged Jay and went right for him in attack mode. I was surprised.

 

Then I read one, just posted at the time, from mi amigo, Randy Holt, who (predictably) goes right for the Jay bone, and then even "doubles down" a couple posts later with one saying "Jay iced his own kicker and then cut him as a scapegoat!" (I paraphrase). That sort of post was not a surprise, nor was it when a couple of other "familiars" kicked in on the same wavelength.  

 

Then that trend picked up and I read about a dozen more afterwards that all went right to "jay hate" as opposed to actual critical examination (though some folks were indeed doing that---just no "fanboy" types). Per that matter, there is of course a joint participation and responsibility on a cut like that if we are to go by Scot's history as a GM and how this structure is said to be working here, between GM & HC, smart or stupid. 

 

Now due to the proclivities of some of these posters, this is a forum where even things that are so obvious they "shouldn't" need to be noted as disclaimers, will be. So I do this next piece to avoid the pinhead responses from those who would have to "come in" and post them---missing the point as usual but needing to "go" yet again.

 

So, yes, there are significant questions about Jay/Kirk (among many other things) as all of us note, and I post on them myself fairly regularly. And obviously any team matter is open to praise and criticism by any member regardless of where a member stood on QB issues, but preferably separating those other matters from being overly influenced by how they perceive their once-super-favorite QB has fared in DC. And there is indeed still a (notably smaller) group of rg3 "haters" who are just as hypocritical as their counterparts, and now will bend over backwards to defend Kirk (and maybe Jay somewhat).

 

 

None of that is pertinent to what I continue to spotlight and castigate as long as certain folks keep offering it as part of their product. What is pertinent, is the ofted identified dumbing down of critical analysis and the lower level of flailing conversation that such ego/emo-driven biases offer.

[Koolblue13]

Care to dumb that wall of text down, for this idiot fan?

[TSO]

Care to dumb that wall of text down, for this idiot fan?

 

Subjective thinking creates a perception based on constructs that become increasingly difficult to tear down and overcome by its adherents, with time being a negative force for the unaware.

 

Hope that clears it up.  

[Jumbo]

 @ sub

 

kool you don't need to understand nothing...you're perfect 

[Koolblue13]

Subjective thinking creates a perception based on constructs that become increasingly difficult to tear down and overcome by its adherents, with time being a negative force for the unaware.

Hope that clears it up.

you really gotta stop hanging out with him. Ols

[Renegade7]

GD, that's a vent if ever I heard one. I went off in the Miami Fans in Fedex thread so bad I had to remove my own post before anyone saw it.

[Vesuve]

Again, I excepted Marty. Spurrier was a disaster in the NFL, and was need, ever going to succeed there, which is why he QUIT, not fired. So, pointing at his college success has nothing to do with whether he would have done here if he had stuck around.

 

One more time- none of the coaches we have let go (except Marty) have done anything to show they could be head coaches in the NFL and succeed. Saying that other coaches do better later on doesn't rebut that, and it's not evidence that THOSE coaches would have done anything with more time here.

 

I just think this has been exhausted, that's why I;m trying to move on from it.

8 different coaches since Mr. S took over. That's 8 different coaches in 16 years.

 

No need to go into the other areas / issues.

 

16 years of mediocrity. 

 

It's a broken organization. 

[Jumbo]

I decided to put this in here (wasn't going to start a thread just for it), as the longest-running variable that we all have linked at times to our perpetual state of "doomed" for many years has been the owner, and this thread had ended with talking about Spurrier. We all know the back-n-forth on the topic of "Dan's involvement" with team matters, but haven't heard specifically from old Steve in a long time, and I thought it was worth posting. Also note there is a current qb comment at the link which I omitted. Don't go there in response.   The focus of the piece here is Dan & his oft-examined level of involvement, past, present and...future?

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/steve-spurrier-discusses-dysfunction-during-his-days-in-washington-183627559.html

 

 

Steve Spurrier discusses dysfunction during his days in Washington

 

 

Current South Carolina coach Steve Spurrier knows all too well how things can go in Washington after a two-year stint as head coach.

 

Spurrier was on the David Feherty's Golf Channel show this month and of course discussed golf, butalso football and his time with Washington.

 

Feherty asked Spurrier if he would have done anything differently during his relatively brief tenure with the club, and Spurrier alluded to the issues that have plagued the team during Snyder's tenure as owner.

 

“I don’t know what I could have done that much differently,” Spurrier said. “You know, I don’t want to get into a lot of details, but basically the two years that I was there, the second year we didn’t even pick the team. The owner and the personnel guy, whoever, the personnel guys, they picked the team. I couldn’t even pick the quarterback the second year. So I knew it wasn’t going to work, but that’s ok. I probably didn’t do a very good job, and the situation wasn’t what I was looking for, so it was time to move on.”

 

The interview was taped before the current season began and therefore before Washington's current quarterback drama.

 

But in 2003, Spurrier's second and final season with the team, he named Patrick Ramsey as starting quarterback; according to the Washington Post, Spurrier wanted Danny Wuerffel as Ramsey's backup.

 

But the team had signed Rob Johnson to a free-agent deal that offseason, and though Spurrier and Johnson didn't mesh, Snyder sided with then-GM Vinny Cerrato and the team cut Wuerffel out of training camp and kept Johnson.

 

During the bye week, Spurrier cut Johnson and said Snyder would allow Wuerffel to come back, but Wuerffel rejected the offer. The Post said Wuerffel was still upset over how he'd been treated.

 

Spurrier reminded Feherty that he was not fired in Washington, but rather walked away from "a bunch of money" since, as he'd said earlier, the situation wasn't what he was looking for.

 

[Skinsinparadise]

Also note there is a current qb comment at the link which I omitted. Don't go there in response.   The focus of the piece here is Dan & his oft-examined level of involvement, past, present and...future?

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/steve-spurrier-discusses-dysfunction-during-his-days-in-washington-183627559.html

 

 

 

 

I said something similar to this on another thread and my take is if this team takes one more crazy-rock bottom hit -- lets say Scot gets canned or interfered with, Danny insists that player such and such start or whatever -- I hope there is an organized effort directed at Dan Synder.

 

There always seems to be lower hanging fruit to direct the anger towards and Dan escapes the wrath time and time again.  No doubt the media takes aim at him and some of us as well but he's not as far as I noticed ever been the top target as to a fan revolt.  So he can lurk in the shadows do his thing and nothing comes of it because we are taking aim at Vinny, Zorn, Bruce, Shanny, Jay and whomever is next.

 

The wild thing to me is even if its true that the problems with the organization have been the GMs and or head coaches, (and the Danny interference stuff is hyperbole) etc -- playing along then who is the one person in common hiring all these incompetent people?  The best we can say in that case is Danny doesn't interfere much and don't buy the hype but he is completely incompetent when it comes to hiring the right person and knowing whom to trust.  

 

Danny maybe can back himself out of the corner by saying he chirps in once in a blue moon and he is an easy scapegoat.  OK, maybe so.  But, it can't always be everyone else's fault.   If lets say I am running a restaurant, the customer tells me they liked this place previously but they hate the food now, what do I tell them, well sorry our chef stinks, its not my fault, I'll fire them.   Then the same customer comes back for another go, and then I say yeah sorry bad chef again.  I thought I had it fixed.  Rinse and repeat again and again.   The customer would naturally laugh in my face ultimately and say dude, clearly you don't know what the heck you are doing, i am done with this place.  

[Fat Stupid Loser]

Subjective thinking creates a perception based on constructs that become increasingly difficult to tear down and overcome by its adherents, with time being a negative force for the unaware.

 

Hope that clears it up.  

[Rodriggo]

What it seems like to me, from a 1,000,000 miles away, is that while Snyder might not be super involved in personnel decisions anymore he's a mediocre manager, poor leader, and has almost no "people skills." The fact that "his meddling" is still a thing, now 16 years after he took over is testament to that. Either he's still too involved or he's surrounding himself with cowards, charlatans, and turncoats who point to him when they **** up.

 

Either way, it's safe to say the atmosphere/culture around this team is beyond cursed, beyond toxic. They lucked into a ROTY QB at the #2 overall pick in 2012, had him not only start at QB, but be instrumental, heck, be a ******* team captain, on a 10 win! 10 win! division champion, and couldn't make it stick for even one season for reasons beyond football. Think about that for a second. We can't enjoy winning b/c people can't get along, because of ******* twitter posts. That's who the Redskins are now.

 

Nothing regarding this franchise is ever ahead of the curve. In my lifetime they've gone from selling out and rocking RFK, one of the best home fields in sport, to being a "tarp team." Like it or not we're all in the same boat regarding the name issue and Captain Snyder has sucked on it big time. Right or wrong his response on THAT ISSUE has helped transform this team into a daily laughingstock REGARDLESS of win/loss. Deadspin? Skins story. Uni Watch? "Skins Watch." SNF? Bob Costas diatribe. We are all getting our asses handed to us on it daily.

 

The only hope I have now as a fan is GM Scot McCloughan. And really it's only b/c he's competent. He has a vision, "big boy football", communicates it DIRECTLY to fans, "we're gonna draft big boys", proceeds to do just that and I absolutely ******* love him for it. I'm hoping he can bring in more "competent" people into the fold to make up for the Snyder & Co. infection but honestly that might be too much to ask for. Hoping he can turn them around before they eventually run him out of town, and bless their heart they will.

 

1. Let Scot work, give him his fair shake.

2. Let Rob go in peace. Prey, and I mean like you've never preyed before, that he fades into bolivian.

 

I've never truly hated Snyder b/c I believe he's a fan and wants to win but he's just totally incapable of doing it. He's the real life Michael Scott only this isn't Hollywood and there's no happy ending. We're just gonna suck for decades on decades until maybe one of his kids figures it out. If they fire Scot too soon or Rob finds success somewhere else or both, this franchise will be annihilated.

[TSO]

Danny maybe can back himself out of the corner by saying he chirps in once in a blue moon and he is an easy scapegoat.  OK, maybe so.  But, it can't always be everyone else's fault.   If lets say I am running a restaurant, the customer tells me they liked this place previously but they hate the food now, what do I tell them, well sorry our chef stinks, its not my fault, I'll fire them.   Then the same customer comes back for another go, and then I say yeah sorry bad chef again.  I thought I had it fixed.  Rinse and repeat again and again.   The customer would naturally laugh in my face ultimately and say dude, clearly you don't know what the heck you are doing, i am done with this place.  

 

 

In your analogy, SIP... I'd add that the chefs are always forced to use ingredients they'd rather not, and shouldn't. Bad ingredients that only the owner thinks taste good. And they may have even tasted good at one point, but the quality has went downhill and they need to be purchased elsewhere. So he may be hiring chefs who've had success everywhere they've been, but then fail miserably under him. Or it could be his hiring process simply sucks and he couldn't see how the success those chefs had elsewhere wouldn't translate.   

 

At this point, I don't see how anyone can accept that Snyder doesn't "meddle". There's just too much direct evidence from numerous ex-employees who were close to Snyder that he simply can't help himself. Now, do I believe that he's constantly meddling in all football decisions?

 

Nope.

 

But I do believe he's heavily involved, EVERY TIME, in decisions regarding the QB. Mike Shanahan has said it. Vinny Cerrato has said it. And now Spurrier.

 

I also believe he's heavily involved with whoever the superstar on the team is at the time... we've seen it with Lavar Arrington and Clinton Portis. Interestingly, it's never guys in the trenches. Like, you never heard about him hanging out too much with Haynesworth or siding with him during the spat with Mike. Chris Samuels? Not sure he knew who he was. It's telling. Or maybe it isn't, I digress, lol.    

 

And while circumstantial, I can't ignore the ESPN report from Dianna Russini that essentially states that Snyder (written as "ownership", but come on we know what that means... it might include Allen, though) was the only one blocking "the football people" from benching Robert... can't ignore it knowing Scot's wife had just went on twitter accusing Dianna of sexual favors to get info from him, and then after issuing an apology we see her sister-in-law say she was forced to do so.

 

I'm convinced Scot gave Dianna that info. It's simply too hard to disregard, as circumstantial as it is, based on that entire episode and knowing Dan's past when it comes to involvement in QBs.

 

And, you know what? It's really not a big deal that the owner would be involved with the most important position on the team. I mean, be involved in ensuring they're properly focused on by the coaches, the timelines of their development and progress reports, the GM/scouts thinking on the matter. That's all wonderful and he should be doing that.

 

The problem is, he constantly goes against the people whom HE HIRED to fulfill that role. People who have way more expertise at evaluating these QBs than he does. He can question them, tell them he disagrees, whatever... but he should recognize that he hired them to do a job and that the decision-making within that role should belong to them.

 

If it doesn't, why even have an organization? Why have titles, roles, responsibilities? It's incredible a man as wealthy as him seemingly has no grasp of basic organizational principles.  

 

One could say it's like utter self-deprecation in that he constantly identifies his own self as a failure - evidenced by the fact that he can't trust his own decisions when it comes to his hires - and then proceeds to punish himself (his decisions) by undermining them. Unless, of course, they completely kiss his ass and just go along with whatever brilliant idea he comes with at the time. 

 

Bruce Allen is an intriguing anomaly to me on this. On one hand, he's supposed to be that buffer between Snyder and "the football people". A buffer who can get through to Snyder on football issues, and stop him when necessary, to allow the decisions to be made based on the proper organizational hierarchy.

 

But he has one major strike so far with me in how 2013 ended. Where was he in that massive disaster of organizational dysfunction where roles were being undermined all throughout the entire building and titles became meaningless?

 

Is he just a yes man caring about nothing more than keeping his lucrative job? Or is he someone constantly trying to do what's best for the organization and maintain the proper structure, even when he has to directly disagree with Snyder?

 

I wonder.

 

 

If I could ask Dan Snyder one thing, it'd be this:

 

What do you see as the problem with your own hiring process and how do you tie it into your understanding of organizational hierarchy?

 

If he claims nothing is wrong or avoids the question... then I'd follow it up with asking why everyone underneath him has failed thus far, leaving with questions of being undermined in the process? 

 

Okay, maybe more than one thing, lol.  

[Renegade7]

On the bump for Spurrier:

The irony of him being on the golf channel of all places during the interview reminds of a huge reason it didn't work here. And I do not believe for two seconds that Snyder chose Trung Candidate over Stephen Davis. Snyder has his ways, but this guy sounds like he's trying to wash his hands and play the total victim card like people's memory spans cut off after ten plus years. They don't.

Doing a couple google searches, Snyder doesn't seem to interview very well when it comes to tough topics. I'm an optimist, though I agree I'm concerned if this latest FO setup doesn't work.