Rules Question-Desean and the personal foul

[Larry]

Now that this has become the "gripe about the officials" thread, . . . . .

I have to say, I sure thought our new ST headhunter was getting a helmet-to-helmet flag (and paybe a fine or ejection) for that hit. (Not that I didn't enjoy the heck out of it.)

My gut feeling was that that was what used to be a clean hit, but that I've seen lots of people get flagged/fined for plays that sure looked the same, to me.

For them to pick up that flag really surprised me.

[Rufus T Firefly]

What I'll never understand is why offsetting penalties of the same severity (5, 10, 15, or more yards) result in replaying the down.  If they cancel each other out, then why punish whichever team made a play?  If they offset, then they should effectively have not happened.

 

Hypothetical:  Receiver makes the catch for a first down/score.  There's hands to the face on offense (5 yards) and illegal contact  on the defense(5 yards, auto first down).  Because they offset each other, then shouldn't the receiver's first down/score stand?

Nah. Then you're allowing a play that was the result of illegal activity to stand. You're also opening up some weird incentives for people to commit penalties- "hey, they just threw a flag on the DB for illegal contact, so now I can just shove him out of the way, get open and score a TD"

[PartyPosse]

1)  Yeah, I got that.  Rules here are that you don't start a thread for something that already has a thread similar to it.  So you're off there.

 

2)  So I've never said that, which you acknowledged, but thanks for taking your attitude out on me.  In my field we call that "displacement."

 

3)  Never claimed or implied a rule changed at any point.  You misread that.

 

Either way, your post was completely unnecessary and contributed absolutely nothing to the thread.  Don't try to explain it away, just man up, apologize, and move on.  Don't be an ass to fellow Redskins fans when we just beat Dallas.  That's just, no.

I just said that it had always been like that. Nothing to see here. 

 

You were the one that started with the name calling.

 

And I said twice that I wasn't implying you said anything. Just that it has become a natural reaction for many fans to find any reason to start question the refs moral integrity, which.........

 

 

 

 

 

immediately started happening after my post.

[TheCoach22]

I think you are pretty much correct here. My problem with the call, and I was hoping Tirico would clarify (he's normally pretty good about that stuff), is that the hands to the face was DURRING the play, unsportsmanlike against both players was AFTER the play.

I was expecting to hear hands to the face 15 yds enforced and the unsportsmanlike offset. 2 seperate incidents dealt with accordingly.

Also, agree that Desean needs to calm it down a little. Talk all he wants but he needs to envoke a 2 yard rule to eliminate physical contact with opponents. If he would have looked up and seen the flag and the let the ref do his job that time they would have had the penalty and a first down.

HTTR

Yes, that was what thought was coming. Enforce the penalty during the play and ruckus after offsets.

[NewCliche21]

I just said that it had always been like that. Nothing to see here. 

 

You were the one that started with the name calling.

 

And I said twice that I wasn't implying you said anything. Just that it has become a natural reaction for many fans to find any reason to start question the refs moral integrity, which.........

 

immediately started happening after my post.

 

When you tell someone to "Get over it", you're being anything but positive.  You're 37 years old, man.  I shouldn't have to explain that to you.

Nah. Then you're allowing a play that was the result of illegal activity to stand. You're also opening up some weird incentives for people to commit penalties- "hey, they just threw a flag on the DB for illegal contact, so now I can just shove him out of the way, get open and score a TD"

 

Meh, I can see that.  I guess there can't be exceptions for every play, I just hate when a penalty that doesn't affect the play (like a block that happens 30 yards away from anything that would impact the play) actually negates the play.  Just bothers me, but I can see how it would be very difficult to navigate that.

[Gurgeh]

From Keim regarding the 15 yard penalty on Paulsen, that was because the refs thought we were trying to deceive the Cowboys with a late substitution, whereas it was really because the coaches thought they had Paul on the field when they called the play.

[wes]

Not a rules expert, by any means.  But I have a theory.  (Actually two.) 

 

One is that a team can only have one penalty per play.  If, on one play, we have roughing the passer, and pass interference, both on the D, you can only accept one of them. (Now, I believe that you can have a penalty, during the play, and another one, after the play.) 

 

The other is that I think the way offsetting penalties work is that all penalties are either five yard penalties, or major penalties. 

 

Two majors offset.

Two minors offset.

If there's a major and a minor, they ignore the minor. 

 

Because of that, say the O is on it's own 5.  And there's offensive holding, on the 5. and a defensive pass interference, 60 yards downfield. 

 

Now, the holding would be half the distance, and the PI would be 60 yards.  But they're both majors, so they offset, even though one of them is a lot more yardage. 

 

I am a official on the high school level and you are right. Teams have to chose which foul they want to enforce.

 

Here where they got it wrong. The hands to the face was a live ball foul. Should have been enforced. The two PF were dead ball fouls and should have Offset. The correct call should have been 5 yards and a 1st down skins. With the dead ball foul offsetting.

 

Now for the Paulson foui. He ran into the huddle and then ran back off the field. That give the Cowboys the illusion when he entered the huddle as the 12 man that he would be on the field for that play. therefore the Cowboys woulds set the D according to who entered the huddle. When he left the field Dalls did not have time to change there Def personal. Thats why it was unsportsman like. If Any other player had left it would have been the illegal subsition. and only 5 yards.

[skinny21]

Now that this has become the "gripe about the officials" thread, . . . . .

I have to say, I sure thought our new ST headhunter was getting a helmet-to-helmet flag (and paybe a fine or ejection) for that hit. (Not that I didn't enjoy the heck out of it.)

My gut feeling was that that was what used to be a clean hit, but that I've seen lots of people get flagged/fined for plays that sure looked the same, to me.

For them to pick up that flag really surprised me.

That was really close. I was surprised they picked up the flag. With that said, his hands hit first and the helmets hitting (at least I think they did) was incidental - he didn't lead with his. Davis needs to lower his strike zone there. Put his shoulder into the returner's midsection (while wrapping him up) and he 1) avoids the potential foul and 2) has a better chance of dislodging the ball. Coach 'em up! Love his speed and ability to get around blocks though!

[Larry]

That was really close. I was surprised they picked up the flag. With that said, his hands hit first and the helmets hitting (at least I think they did) was incidental - he didn't lead with his. Davis needs to lower his strike zone there. Put his shoulder into the returner's midsection (while wrapping him up) and he 1) avoids the potential foul and 2) has a better chance of dislodging the ball. Coach 'em up! Love his speed and ability to get around blocks though!

Yeah, the fact that he got there was huge.

Thinking about it, gotta give grudging props to the Cowboy, for holding onto the ball.

[skins island connection]

The holding calls stopped bothering me a long time ago because it seems like other teams always have them ignored against us.

 

The one that pissed me off was the 15 yard unsportsmanlike conduct against Paulsen that took us out of FG range because he was in the huddle. I have no idea what that was about, but 15 yards? Are you kidding me?

 

 That reminded me of SB XXII; a ref went over and talked to Gibbs briefly, and Dan Dickheadierdorf made note about it.

Turns out Gibbs was keeping his players on the field too long before sending the players who were not going to be in the play back to the sidelines.

 It was funny though, when Michaels said the ref was chastising Gibbs, Dan mumbled 'running up the score maybe'.

 

 I would have thought they would have called an illegal substitution foul, but i didn't think it would have been a 15 yder

[bentskin]

I don't get why the hands to the face (which happened during the play) wasn't enforced, since the offsetting PF's were after the play/dead ball fouls??

 

Also, the Paulsen 15 yard PF for entering/leaving the huddle.. Why do they risk players getting injured on a play they already know is going to be called back, long before the ball is even snapped?? Seems like the same catagory as a false start to me?

 

Regarding the Paulsen penalty. Agreed. This is where college get it right. On substitution penalties like this they throw the flag and blow the play dead right then.

 

HTTR

[HtownRocks111]

I really hope Jay Gruden gets to Desean and tells him to calm the **** down. He's jumping in someone's face every damn game and is an unsportsmanlike penalty waiting to happen. I get that some players need to get fired up, but he's verging on out of control and somewhere down the line it's going to cost the team big-time. I was holding my breath last night every time he went off.

 

If he gurantees us 5 catches of 25+ yards everygame, I'll take 1 of those penalties each game.  In fact, I may personally pay the fine.

[joebagadonuts]

I am a official on the high school level and you are right. Teams have to chose which foul they want to enforce.

 

Here where they got it wrong. The hands to the face was a live ball foul. Should have been enforced. The two PF were dead ball fouls and should have Offset. The correct call should have been 5 yards and a 1st down skins. With the dead ball foul offsetting.

 

This. I was screaming at the TV after this play, but apparently the refs didn't hear me. I'm suprised Jay or another Redskins coach didn't bring this up to the refs and ask for a clarification. I believe this was a 3rd down play, and to deny a team a first down in a really tight game because of an officiating blunder is huge. I think we got the first on the next play, so it didn't matter, but it's still a terrible error.

[PartyPosse]

It was a second down and Djax dropped the third down pass and we punted.

[joebagadonuts]

It was a second down and Djax dropped the third down pass and we punted.

Well, then, I am pissed about it.

[Brokenstriker]

Well, if we're going to go there!  Since when did pulling the facemask of Alfred Morris become legal?  At least two missed ones yesterday in the second half.

there is a well studied scientically established trend for officials to be biased towards the home team.  There is also a conspiracy theorist position that there are some teams who get a pass from officials e.g., the Pukes, the Mara owned Gaints, any team Michael Jordan/Kobe Bryant/name your popular player is on, Duke basketball, etc. and some teams who get screwed by officials e.g., the Skins, NBA basement dwellers, etc.