twa Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Well all we can go on is Israels past actions and those show that the "rockets" don't have any effect on whether or not Israel invades. As for your second point, care to prove your assertion that Hamas systematically hides behind civilians. And no fighting in an urban area doesn't count because the entirety of the Gaza strip is urban. Any thoughts on the 400+ dead civilians or the fact that Israel has bombed a hospital, center for the disabled, and countless homes and mosques while having a 1/3 chance of hitting someone they deem a "terrorist"? in 08 rockets and mortars were fired from Gaza as well as smuggling weapons....you are either blind or biased where they fire from,hide their weapons and build their hideouts prove my point. ya don't wanna endanger innocents send em out to meet Allah instead of hiding add Hiding in hospitals is so brave At the Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, crowds gathered to throw shoes and eggs at the Palestinian Authority’s health minister, who represents the crumbling “unity government” in the West Bank city of Ramallah. The minister was turned away before he reached the hospital, which has become a de facto headquarters for Hamas leaders, who can be seen in the hallways and offices. http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/while-israel-held-its-fire-the-militant-group-hamas-did-not/2014/07/15/116fd3d7-3c0f-4413-94a9-2ab16af1445d_story.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 one more reason for the ground game http://www.timesofisrael.com/the-treacherous-task-of-tunnel-demolition/#ixzz380b73u2D%20 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpyaks3 Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 in 08 rockets and mortars were fired from Gaza as well as smuggling weapons....you are either blind or biased where they fire from,hide their weapons and build their hideouts prove my point. ya don't wanna endanger innocents send em out to meet Allah instead of hiding add Hiding in hospitals is so brave At the Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, crowds gathered to throw shoes and eggs at the Palestinian Authority’s health minister, who represents the crumbling “unity government” in the West Bank city of Ramallah. The minister was turned away before he reached the hospital, which has become a de facto headquarters for Hamas leaders, who can be seen in the hallways and offices. http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/while-israel-held-its-fire-the-militant-group-hamas-did-not/2014/07/15/116fd3d7-3c0f-4413-94a9-2ab16af1445d_story.html The start of the article on the hospital is incredibly disingenuous as it implies that the ceasefire was actually agreed to by anyone other than Israel (without consulting Hamas). Now I would love to see where he was getting his information on the hospital since he is stationed in Jerusalem and every human rights organization in the Gaza strip has said categorically that Hamas has not been happening Since the start of Israel’s “Operation Protective Edge,” Human Rights Watch,Amnesty International and United Nations officials–the heavyweights when it comes to interpreting international law–have all issued reports and statements slamming Israel for violations of international law. Those organizations have also said Hamas and other Palestinian militant groups firing rockets are committing war crimes since their volleys are indiscriminately aimed at Israeli civilians. .... And Israel has also pounded home the message that civilian deaths are occurring because Hamas uses Palestinians as “human shields.” No evidence has been presented that Hamas does so. .... Sarah Leah Whitson, Human Rights Watch’s Middle East director, said in a statement that “the presence of a single, low-level fighter would hardly justify the appalling obliteration of an entire family. Israel would never accept an argument that any Israeli home of an Israel Defense Force member would be a valid military target.” Whitson echoed what UN human rights chief Navi Pillay said when the assault on Gaza began. And your first statement is absolutely incorrect, Israel had planned Cast Lead during the cease fire and were looking for any excuse to invade. The fact is that Hamas stopped nearly all of the rockets/mortars coming from Gaza which is remarkable considering how splintered the militants there are. Israel even said that Hamas was prosecuting people who broke the ceasefire. The fact is that Hamas has followed ceasefires while Israel has broken them (both in 2008, 2012, and with the rearrest of prisoners let go in prisoner exchanges). If Israel didn't want tunnels maybe they shouldn't be blockading Gaza and inflicting collective punishment on the Palestinian people. They probably shouldn't be bombing densely populated areas either, or occupying and stealing Palestinian land, but I assume you will just hand wave that all away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 so we have gone from no rockets fired to nearly none....progress I agree the Palestinians have legitimate gripes.....their solutions suck though inaccurate and untrue seems to fit your claims more than mine....but why quibble Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpyaks3 Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 so we have gone from no rockets fired to nearly none....progress I agree the Palestinians have legitimate gripes.....their solutions suck though inaccurate and untrue seems to fit your claims more than mine....but why quibble Hamas wasn't shooting the rockets or mortars other groups unaffiliated with them were. Israel had even commended them on the crackdown.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Hamas wasn't shooting the rockets or mortars other groups unaffiliated with them were. Israel had even commended them on the crackdown.... That's the problem with leadership and control....responsibility and assholes. here's to both getting better ....good night Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted July 22, 2014 Author Share Posted July 22, 2014 https://twitter.com/sheeraf In 30min, 10am local, Israel & Gaza are meant to start a 5 hour ceasefire. If it lasts, it'll be the longest hold on fire since war started 2:40 AM On my PT, Israel has not confirmed the ceasefire - I heard from UN that it had been accepted. 2:45 AM http://live.aljazeera.com/Event/Gaza_Blog Israeli army confirms it fired warning shots on Al Jazeera bureau in Gaza. by Basma Atassi 3:04 AM https://twitter.com/BarakRavid Senior Israeli official says Head of COGAT General Mordechai told UN Israel rejects proposal for a humanitarian cease-fire in Gaza 3:19 AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpyaks3 Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 when you recruit 'children' and then stand behind them ....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 What is the Israeli end-game here? How do they know when they've won? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpyaks3 Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 when you recruit 'children' and then stand behind them ....... You keep repeating bs like this. Human rights organizations across the board who have actual access to Gaza disagree with you and callously trying to shift the blame from the side that killed those children to the people being attacked is absolutely absurd. Although there is this... A United Nations committee focused on youth rights accused Israel Thursday of failing to stop the mistreatment of Palestinian children in military and police custody. The group's report accuses Israeli forces of using Palestinian children as human shields, and alleges that detained children in some cases face torture, solitary confinement and threats of sexual assault. Assembled by the U.N. Committee on the Rights of the Child, the 21-page document comes three months after a UNICEF paper criticized the "systematic and institutionalized" mistreatment of Palestinian children detained by the Israeli military. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/un-report-accuses-israeli-forces-of-using-palestinian-children-as-human-shields-abusing-children-in-custody/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 You keep repeating bs like this. Human rights organizations across the board who have actual access to Gaza disagree with you and callously trying to shift the blame from the side that killed those children to the people being attacked is absolutely absurd. half the pop of gaza is 18 and under,40% is under 14.....considering the choices Hamas has made the % is low imo it certainly demonstrates a effort to prevent killing children since ya have about a 50/50 chance to begin with. quit firing rockets and sending suicide bombers (like one of the women in your total) and I might support ya, I might not even object to them hiding behind them then What is the Israeli end-game here? How do they know when they've won? there is no win, they will quit when hamas rocket and tunnel capabilities are reduced sufficiently......or they get tired of losing people themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpyaks3 Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 half the pop of gaza is 18 and under,40% is under 14.....considering the choices Hamas has made the % is low imo it certainly demonstrates a effort to prevent killing children since ya have about a 50/50 chance to begin with. quit firing rockets and sending suicide bombers (like one of the women in your total) and I might support ya, I might not even object to them hiding behind them then So Palestinians should never resist the Israeli occupation? How has that worked out in the West Bank for them? Oh yeah just more colonization and less land, autonomy, with the bonus of living under a police state that can snatch you at any time for any reason. Israel is the colonizing power, Israel is the one blockading the Gaza Strip, and Israel is the side killing civilians at an astounding clip. Whining about Hamas and making stuff up isn't going to change that fact. Also a 50/50 chance? That would mean Israel is just randomly and indiscriminately bombing (which isn't too far from the truth). The fact is Israel is killing these civilians, it is no ones responsibility but Israels to not kill civilians and they are clearly failing (that tends to happen when you bomb apartment buildings, hospitals, and centers for the disabled, not to mention kids playing on the beach). Your attempts to obfuscate this fact, whitewash, and shift the blame away from the occupying force and the force dropping the bombs that are killing 3 civilians for every "militant" are pretty despicable. Also why is it Hamas responsibility to stop firing rockets but not Israel's responsibility to stop breaking ceasefires, killing civilians, invading and bombing the Gaza strip? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 All of this over a kidnapping of 3 teenagers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 All of this over a kidnapping of 3 teenagers? and rockets being fired and other attacks.......you serious? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 jpyaks3....how many of those were killed by Hamas themselves? (errant rockets/mortars and other workplace accidents such as premature detonations) deduct those, deduct actual combatants, deduct human shields,deduct those accused of collaboration Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpyaks3 Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 and rockets being fired and other attacks.......you serious? The rockets were fired after Israel went in and killed 10 people and detained over 400 without proof of anything. Also the fact that there has been zero proof that the kidnapping and killing of those teens had anything to do with Hamas. It was clearly just an excuse to whip up nationalist furor and attack the unity government of Fatah and Hamas. A good article on "timelines" “Both sides” rhetoric means accepting the timeline the aggressor puts forth so as to make its claim to be acting defensively seem plausible. In this view, the current killing supposedly started with the June 11 disappearance and killing of three Israeli settlers rather than the murder by the Israeli military ofunarmed Palestinian teenagers Nadeem Nawara and Mohammad Salameh on May 15. Nor in this telling was the starting point June 10, when Israel attacked a man alleged to be a militant and the ten-year-old he was with, instantly killing the man and causing the child to die from injuries three days later. That’s to say nothing of the accurate starting points: the 1947-8 Nakba, the 1917 Balfour Declaration, or May 2, 1860, the date of Theodor Herzl’s birth. https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/07/a-plague-on-one-house/ jpyaks3....how many of those were killed by Hamas themselves? (errant rockets/mortars and other workplace accidents such as premature detonations) deduct those, deduct actual combatants, deduct human shields,deduct those accused of collaboration And you have the list that the Washington Post showed. You seem to like making claims and backing them up with nothing but conjecture. So why don't you give me an accurate number of civilians killed by Israel in this latest invasion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sisko Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 So Palestinians should never resist the Israeli occupation? How has that worked out in the West Bank for them? Oh yeah just more colonization and less land, autonomy, with the bonus of living under a police state that can snatch you at any time for any reason. Israel is the colonizing power, Israel is the one blockading the Gaza Strip, and Israel is the side killing civilians at an astounding clip. Whining about Hamas and making stuff up isn't going to change that fact. Also a 50/50 chance? That would mean Israel is just randomly and indiscriminately bombing (which isn't too far from the truth). The fact is Israel is killing these civilians, it is no ones responsibility but Israels to not kill civilians and they are clearly failing (that tends to happen when you bomb apartment buildings, hospitals, and centers for the disabled, not to mention kids playing on the beach). Your attempts to obfuscate this fact, whitewash, and shift the blame away from the occupying force and the force dropping the bombs that are killing 3 civilians for every "militant" are pretty despicable. Also why is it Hamas responsibility to stop firing rockets but not Israel's responsibility to stop breaking ceasefires, killing civilians, invading and bombing the Gaza strip? See you have to understand that it's only terrorism if you kill civilians with suicide bombs and other such methods. When you have the resources to use smart bombs, artillery, tanks, etc. then it's not terrorism. I'm sure that will comfort the families of the dead. I'm not a fan of Khomeni but after the Iran/Iraq war in which we propped up Saddam in major way while he repeatedly used chemical weapons not only on the Iranian military, but often civilians as well (not just against the Kurds either) he predicted that supporting Saddam would one day come back to haunt us. Turns out Khomeni was right. I've long had the same feeling about Israel. The fact is, Israel has the military capability to do whatever it wants in the ME and the diplomatic backing from us to do it with impunity. Again, until some politicians here get the stones to face up to AIPAC and the evangelicals expecting Israel's existence to bring Jeebus back that's not going to change, no matter how many civilians Israel kills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 The rockets were fired after Israel went in and killed 10 people and detained over 400 without proof of anything. Also the fact that there has been zero proof that the kidnapping and killing of those teens had anything to do with Hamas. It was clearly just an excuse to whip up nationalist furor and attack the unity government of Fatah and Hamas. A good article on "timelines" https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/07/a-plague-on-one-house/ And you have the list that the Washington Post showed. You seem to like making claims and backing them up with nothing but conjecture. So why don't you give me an accurate number of civilians killed by Israel in this latest invasion. TWA has blogs. Lots of them. They all usually suck eggs and are written by morons but that has never stopped him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 And you have the list that the Washington Post showed. You seem to like making claims and backing them up with nothing but conjecture. So why don't you give me an accurate number of civilians killed by Israel in this latest invasion. I'll get back to you when it is over .....or paused as the case may be http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2014 TWA has blogs. Lots of them. They all usually suck eggs and are written by morons but that has never stopped him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 jpyaks3....how many of those were killed by Hamas themselves? (errant rockets/mortars and other workplace accidents such as premature detonations) deduct those, deduct actual combatants, deduct human shields,deduct those accused of collaboration So, your point is that fatalities to actual combatants don't count? Really? Obviously, I don't have an exact scorecard, but I think that makes the "score" something like 400 to 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 So, your point is that fatalities to actual combatants don't count? Really? Obviously, I don't have an exact scorecard, but I think that makes the "score" something like 400 to 2. my point is they work to obscure the number of combatants by lumping them into gross numbers,as well as the ones they kill themselves. ya keep score however ya wish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 my point is they work to obscure the number of combatants by lumping them into gross numbers,as well as the ones they kill themselves. ya keep score however ya wish Your point was to try to come up with as many imaginary excuses as possible, to try to reduce the number killed by one side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Your point was to try to come up with as many imaginary excuses as possible, to try to reduce the number killed by one side. if they were killed by hamas or their own actions it is not by one side is it my imagination hamas fire has killed Palestinians? is it my imagination suicide bombers choose to die? Is it my imagination suspected collaborators and the uncooperative are killed by hamas? Or do I need to add color? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 I think at this point twa is just a lost cause. A broken record. Probably not really worth paying attention to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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