JMS Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Is there any hope for the Palestinians? It seems Israel won't stop until they have all the land and there are no Palestinians left. Nobody in the international community seems willing to stand up for human decency. What a heartbreaking situation. The really strange thing here is Israel doesn't want Gaza... It's a slum full of 1.8 million Palestinians... Israel has tried to give it to Egypt in the 70's. No Arab country will take it because they see it as a mess Israel created and Israel must solve... Israel unilaterally removed their troops from GAZA a few years ago... although they still occupy it because they control the boarders, sea and air all around Gaza and have blockaded it for the last decade. This is all punitive on Israel's part... Israel wants to inflict enough pain on the Palestinians and Hamas that they stop shooting off those rockets. Stop showing defiance against 70 years of occupation. So far all it seems Israel has accomplished is to get many many more people killed on both sides. I don't really see how this operation ends with any positive result for either side. Israel's positive result is to show the Palestinians they are hard core son's of ****es and you better not mess with them. Problem is this has been Israel's message for the last 70 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Kind of a misleading message isn't it.. What with the death toll running 100's of Palestinians killed for every Israeli. I think "misleading" is a bit kind. More like "completely disingenuous". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Kind of a misleading message isn't it.. What with the death toll running 100's of Palestinians killed for every Israeli. ain't kept up with the death toll? 1,500 Palestinians? recalibrate add recalculating http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Texan-killed-in-Gaza-Strip-conflict-5634336.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpyaks3 Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 ain't kept up with the death toll? 1,500 Palestinians? recalibrate add recalculating http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Texan-killed-in-Gaza-Strip-conflict-5634336.php Cute way to avoid discussing the amount of Palestinians killed, well how about this Israel kills civilians at a hundred-fold rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I have an idea. Let's reclassify "Palestinians" as "Fetuses". Then the right wing will be all about saving them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Not seeing much credibility in this thread on the Israeli side of the argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted July 21, 2014 Author Share Posted July 21, 2014 https://now.mmedia.me/lb/en/mena/556691-obama-calls-for-immediate-truce-as-gaza-toll-soars Obama calls for immediate truce as Gaza toll soars US President Barack Obama called for an "immediate ceasefire" between Israel and Hamas on Sunday, after the bloodiest day of fighting in Gaza raised the number of Palestinians killed to 476. The United Nations Security Council opened urgent talks on efforts to strike a ceasefire deal as Israel ramped up a major military offensive with fresh strikes Monday in the Palestinian territory. The Palestinian death toll soared to 476 after the bloodiest single day in Gaza in five years, with a spokesperson for the enclave's emergency services saying more than a third of Sunday's 120 victims were women and children. The Israeli army said 13 soldiers had been killed inside Gaza on Sunday, raising to 18 the number of soldiers killed since the ground operation began late on Thursday. In their second call in three days, Obama "reaffirmed Israel's right to defend itself" and called for an "immediate ceasefire" in Gaza. US Secretary of State John Kerry was flying to Cairo on Monday for meetings with senior officials from Egypt and other countries. British Prime Minister David Cameron also spoke with Netanyahu, reiterating "the UK’s strong support for Israel’s right to take proportionate action to defend itself from" Gaza rockets, while expressing condolences over the Israeli deaths and concern over the "mounting civilian casualties in Gaza." Cameron agreed with Netanyahu that the way out of the "spiral of violence" was through the Egyptian ceasefire initiative, a spokesperson for Cameron said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Nice work Obama Israel runs over Gaza, kills scores of civilians, and all you give at the White House iftar is a speech by the Israeli ambassador (that went over like a led zepplin) and a speech on how Israel has a right to defend itself. 400+ confirmed dead and infrastructure destroyed and now you call for a cease fire. And this guy is supposed to be a secret Muslim? A critical commentary on what might have been going on inside the President Obama’s head when he was offering the 2014 White House Iftar comments: President Obama: “And I will say very clearly, no country can accept rocket fired indiscriminately at citizens.” [Commentary: Which is why I am so glad Palestine is not a country, because if it were, they wouldn’t accept having Israel bomb them and fire at them either. Oh, and that’s why we in the United States use drones to kill civilians in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Yemen, Somalia. Not rockets. That’s totally different. Drones. Not rockets.] President Obama: “And so, we’ve been very clear that Israel has the right to defend itself against what I consider to be inexcusable attacks from Hamas.” [Commentary: Please, please, nobody ask me if Palestinians have the right to defend themselves from inexcusable attacks from Israel. Because then I’ll either have to say that the US has to use its considerable leverage to put an immediate pressure on Israel to stop, or, o crap, I have to say that Palestinians have the right to defend themselves against Israel, which… o crap… since they have no army, o crap, that means either HAMAS or suicide bombing Wow. I don’t like this at all.] President Obama: “At the same time, on top of the humanitarian crisis in Gaza that we’ve worked long and hard to alleviate, the death and injury of Palestinian civilians is a tragedy, which is why we’ve emphasized the need to protect civilians, regardless of who they are or where they live.” [Commentary: yeah, we’ve worked long and hard….to send billions of dollars in military hardware to Israel, which it is now being used to unleash hell on earth on a defenseless trapped civilian population already malnourished, thirsty, sick, and underemployed. And ‘regardless of who they are.’ Of course all the civilians since the start of Israel’s war on Gaza are Palestinian, but anyway, ‘regardless of who they are, or where they live’—I mean they could be in Gaza City, in Khan Younis, in any of the places in Gaza. And by the way, sure hope how nobody noticed how I called Palestinians dying a “tragedy” and not a crime. And note to self, Obama, wow, you are really smart. You just managed to talk about death of injury of Palestinian civilians, without ever once using the word Israel as the agent. Smooooooooth. Oh, and I will mourn the three Israeli teenagers and talk about my own grief as a father, but good God, if I have to actually name any of the Palestinian children killed by Israel’s bombing, wow, that would not go over well.] President Obama: “In the United States of America, there is no place for false divisions between races and religions….We are all Americans, equal in rights and dignity, and no one should ever be targeted or disparaged because of their faith.” [Commentary: ‘No one should be targeted’….well, except that part where we use tax-payer money to do NSA surveillance on people precisely on the basis of their religion and ethnicity. Yeah, in that case, screw them. Oh, and ‘Americans are equal in rights and dignity/, except the poor people who now stand at a greater level of income equality than any point before. So let’s talk about equal rights, without talking about income inequality, re-distribution of wealth, a corrupt system of corporate influence, etc. And can we just say that we are all equal, without anyone asking me about what the heck is happening in inner-city Detroit, please? Because if I have to explain why water is being shut off to half of the families in Detroit and the UN now considers that a violation of human rights, oh Jeez… can’t we just stay in the realm of equal rights and not talk about issues of poverty and justice? Please?] Enjoy the meal, no questions, don’t forget the goodie bags.al-salam alaykum! See you next year! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted July 21, 2014 Author Share Posted July 21, 2014 https://twitter.com/AymanM Intense Israeli shelling taking place in Eastern Gaza. at least 10 explosions, fighter jets and drones above. sounds like nonstop thunder 5:53 AM Palestinian sources: strike on home of Hamas' Ahmed Abu Sahmoud in Khan Younis killed him & 27 others, including women & children 5:58 AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LVSkinz Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Cute way to avoid discussing the amount of Palestinians killed, well how about this Israel kills civilians at a hundred-fold rate. I think a simple "their lives mean less because they're Arabs" would have saved him so much energy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpyaks3 Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Reports of Israel shelling Al Aqsa Martyrs hospital now... http://www.naharnet.com/stories/en/139859-gaza-death-toll-rises-to-514-as-israeli-shelling-targets-hospital I believe this is one of the few functioning hospitals in the strip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Reports of Israel shelling Al Aqsa Martyrs hospital now... http://www.naharnet.com/stories/en/139859-gaza-death-toll-rises-to-514-as-israeli-shelling-targets-hospital I believe this is one of the few functioning hospitals in the strip. Disgusting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I think a simple "their lives mean less because they're Arabs" would have saved him so much energy. typical bs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 A fantastic read on the current colonial mindset that is driving Israel's actions http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ferrari-sheppard/i-traveled-to-palestine_b_4761896.html I Traveled to Palestine-Israel And Discovered There is no 'Palestinian-Israeli Conflict' In Jerusalem, I witnessed great religious and ethnic diversity. I saw Arabs, Asians, Europeans, Africans, Orthodox Jews, Muslims, Christians, all scrambling in Old City Jerusalem towards their various destinations. It was postcard worthy. The variety of cultures in Jerusalem is outstanding. Similar to many societies however, Palestine-Israel presents a polished version of itself to tourists, where 5-star hotels in Tel Aviv and tourist attractions in Jerusalem cloak its brutal realities. The fact remains that our delegation was subject to a type of racism I've only experienced in the southern states of the United States of America. Of course, to a Jew or a middle class Palestinian living in Jerusalem or Nazareth, my observations may sound like exaggerations, but for the African migrant sleeping on the ground in South Tel Aviv, or for Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, my evaluations are dead on. The blatant, systemic subjugation and profiling of Arabs was most pronounced when our tour guide, a middle class Palestinian woman, was forced by IDF soldiers to exit our tour van and pass through a checkpoint on foot. As all Palestinians must do, she was told to place her thumb on a scanner to pass through a turn-style at a checkpoint. The members of our delegation were no exception to IDF scrutiny. The light skinned blacks in our delegation were interrogated and asked bluntly if they were Arab, and if not, what the last names of their fathers' were. Palestinians and progressive Israelis told our delegation story after story of the abuses and degradation they've suffered at the hands of Israeli settlers or soldiers, and we witnessed some of this treatment first hand. Along with the rampant home and land confiscation in the West Bank (in which settlers receive state subsidies), agricultural violence is on the rise, as settlers uproot and destroy the olive trees Palestinians rely on for income and nourishment. More sinisterly, public beatings, arrests and shootings are common, particularly in the West Bank. Without charges, a Palestinian can be imprisoned and held for months or years under administrative detention. The same law does not apply to Jewish Israelis. In fact, Israeli citizens can commit a range of crimes against Palestinians with near impunity. Furthermore, Israelis benefit from being under police and civil courts jurisdiction, while Palestinians are under military jurisdiction. Human Rights Watch has documented the "Separate and Unequal" legal situation endured by Palestinians. Link for rest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sisko Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I don't pretend to have the answers to this never ending conflict, but I do hope the U.S. stays out of it. Israel really needs to consider what it's doing. I can only hope the U.S. has some empathy and reconsiders it's relationship with Israel (I've thought this for quite a while now). What they're doing to Gaza is so similar to what happened to Native Americans IMHO. If we have issues with that, why do we not have issues with what Israel is doing to Palestinians? ETA: Of ALL people who you'd think would understand a group's plight for their own land and freedom, you'd think it would be the Israeli's, but what do I know??? I used to think that because of their history Israel would be just a little more sympathetic to refugees. Turns out that's not the case at all. I guess that whole ethnic purity and Master Race stuff isn't so bad when you're on the other side of it. http://youtu.be/dPxv4Aff3IA?t=1m10s I understand that they're a small country and their desire to remain a Jewish state and all that. However based on the comments/actions in the video above it seems there's a bit more afoot here than that. Besides, if concerns about demographics was all there as to it, they'd be helping to resettle them elsewhere. Israel has a history of targeting and pursecuting children.. They detain them, they brutize them, at one point grown IDF soldiers were chasing down palistinian kids and breaking their arms for throwing rocks at them... 10-11 year olds.. IDF veterans have documented it's "systemic" mistreatment of Chindren. They did it in the Last Gaza War... UNICEF has documented the IDF systemic mistreatement of Children. We have well publisized events were IDF soldiers killing children.. We even have video of it occuring live on Israeli TV... Brings a freaking tear to your eye. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzsCBFhCsyY&list=PLIo886r0NiraDKKooYTLir69v4GVQNO6u&feature=player_detailpage They've been doing it for quite a while... Israel doesn't hold back when it comes to dealing with Kids... They've always been ****s about dealing with Kids... Former PM Arial Sharon's two war crimes, which he was found guilty of in Israeli courts dealt with massacring Innocent Children. Qibya massacre (1953) Sabra and Shatila (1982). Germany turned over their war criminals for trial whereas Israel repeatedly elected theirs to lead the country. Israeli policy has long been based on a belief by many of Israel's founders and leaders that terrorism in the establishment and later the maintenance of Israel is acceptable whereas terrorism against them is a horrible atrocity. The latter holds whether the "terrorism" against them is something as genuinely horrible/unjustifiable as suicide attacks and the killing of innocent civilians or simply expressing displeasure at being pushed off your land. Moreover, they've never had a problem with spying on or damaging allies when it suits their purposes. So these are the "gentlemen" we're allied with. I have no dog in this fight so if I'm wrong then I'm wrong. But what is the solution? If Israel truly feels that its existence is threatened then it is going to act to preserve itself. The spokesman said that the Hamas charter calls for the death of all Israelis. I don't think that is a good opening negotiating position. I hear they're willing to drop the death to all Israelis clause to only say, half of them in exchange for the release of a hundred or so prisoners. Seriously, the solution is for us to take away Israel's blank diplomatic check. If the Palestinians could ever trust us to help broker a fair and balanced peace it would probably happen. In fairness, I doubt it would hold though. As with the Israelis, there are too many of the Palestinians who are absolutists. Is there any hope for the Palestinians? It seems Israel won't stop until they have all the land and there are no Palestinians left. Nobody in the international community seems willing to stand up for human decency. What a heartbreaking situation. Whoever thought the creation of Israel in 1948 was a good idea was a fool with a lot of blood on his hands. I can only hope the God these people believe in is real and they will have to answer to Him. I usually don't talk about this for fear of being falsely labeled an anti-Semite, but I'm just so disgusted. You can thank Truman for that. Had he kept us out of it, we'd have been a lot better off over the years. As for the God comment, I accepted some time ago that whether one chooses to believe in such a fairy tale or not, the inescapable conclusion is that we're on our own. Regardless, if asked, I'm sure all of them, Jews, Christians and Muslims would say he's on their side. However I don't want to turn into Alexey so I'll shut up about that. *Edit* What the heck happened to embedding videos, or am I just losing my touch with the interwebz? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 ain't kept up with the death toll? 1,500 Palestinians? recalibrate As of Today... 500+ P{alestinians killed +3000 injured Total Palestinian Casualties 3500... total Israeli Casualties 18. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 odd casualty equals dead to you how many of those 500 were fighters? they must not be trying hard http://cnsnews.com/news/article/patrick-goodenough/mass-rallies-held-gaza-much-larger-death-toll-syria-ignored Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Section106 Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Maybe it's time for the old Allied powers to intervene since it was those countries that created the modern state of Israel after WWII. Maybe cut the country in half and create a DMZ? Israel to the North and Palestine to the south? Or maybe Obama could go to and convince Egypt to accept these people as refugees and grant them Egyptian citizenship. The US would have to provide aid of course. Whatever happens I don't think after reading up on this that the answer is going to come from the Israeli side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpyaks3 Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 odd casualty equals dead to you how many of those 500 were fighters? they must not be trying hard http://cnsnews.com/news/article/patrick-goodenough/mass-rallies-held-gaza-much-larger-death-toll-syria-ignored Are you seriously trying to deflect Israels ongoing occupation and oppression, their killing of hundreds of civilians over 100 of which are children, their bombing of hospitals, centers for the disabled, random apartment buildings, and their blockade which doesn't allow medical supplies, cement, or macaroni to get into Gaza, by pointing out that the civil war in Syria is worse? Its absolutely disgusting that you are using the tragedy in Syria, which has been covered across the board, to try and deflect from Israeli war crimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sisko Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Well what do you expect. People are limited to having opinions about only one thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Germany turned over their war criminals for trial whereas Israel repeatedly elected theirs to lead the country. Israeli policy has long been based on a belief by many of Israel's founders and leaders that terrorism in the establishment and later the maintenance of Israel is acceptable whereas terrorism against them is a horrible atrocity. The latter holds whether the "terrorism" against them is something as genuinely horrible/unjustifiable as suicide attacks and the killing of innocent civilians or simply expressing displeasure at being pushed off your land. Moreover, they've never had a problem with spying on or damaging allies when it suits their purposes. So these are the "gentlemen" we're allied with. It's certainly true that at times Israel has elected terrorists and/or war criminals to be Prime Ministers... Menachem Begin was a leader of Irgun during the Israel War of Independance. He has stgated his involvement and that of the Irgun in both the Bombing of the King David Hotel in 46 killing 91 people.. Also in the assasination of the UN Peace envoy Folke Bernadotte. Qibya massacre (1953) Sabra and Shatila (1982 I don't know if that's true that this is an inditement on the founders of Israel. The facts are guys like Arial Sharon spent their lifetime on the extreme fringe of ISraeli politics. Sharon was a wildly sucessful military commander who in the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's and 90;s was relageted to the extreme right fringe of Israeli politics... He landed the PM leadership in the 2001-2006... In 2001 he was considered nearly too extreme to be elected and the labor party rejoiced when he was chosen to lacud leadership because they thought him their ideal candiate, too extreme for office. Coarse he was elected and then Israeli politics took such a hard turn to the right after he got into office howerver that when he had his stroke was actually a moderate.. Not that he changed, but that Israeli politics shifted underneath him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s0crates Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 I have an idea: Let's create a Native American state on the Potomac. It's their homeland. We'll give them one of the most powerful armies on earth to defend it. All the people in the DMV now can move to a refugee camp in Richmond. We'll need to put a big wall around it. (The analogy would be better if they had less right to the land than they do, but hopefully you see my point). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Whatever happens I don't think after reading up on this that the answer is going to come from the Israeli side. Israel has a window of opprotunity to deal with the Palistinians and that window is closing... Today the Palistinians are the majority of the people who live in the lands controled by Israel and that majority is growing. Today the Palistinians are asking for a separate country alongside of ISrael, Israel agrees to the premise of land fo rpeace too. The sticking point are all specifics and terms... When the window closes, the Palistinians as the majority will stip asking for a separate country.. When the Palistinians use the aparthied argument against ISrael, Israel ceases to have any claim to being called a democracy, and International pressure and embargo's decend on Israel to give the Palistinians who have lived under Israel occupation for 70 years the vote.... That's when Jews become the minority in Israel and when these troubles end... That is probable the largest existential threat to Israel. The same forces wich took down the larger and economically more sucessful South Africa regime are used against Israel... Alternative existential threats to ISrael.. (1) Iran gets the bomb... a large percentage of ISraeli's in recent polls stated they would move out.. So even if Iran doesn't use it.. Iran having the bomb is an existential threat to Israel. (2) The Palistinians engineering a guidence system for their rockets... From sites in Lebonon, Gaza, and the west bank; their is literally no saquare inch of Israel wich can not be targeted by the estimated 100,000 rockets arrayed against Israel. What's saving Israel is these rockets are not accurate enough to be used as a legitamate military weapon... They can't target with enouth percision to be an existential threat. If / When the palistinians get a decent guidence system for them that all changes and the Palistinians will have a potent weapon for the first time simce maybe the 70's. The Israeli Iron dome anti missile defense system is designed to mitigate this threat but currently it's more of a placebo.. It's currently still not a viable mitigation as the anti missile missiles cost israel $100,000 of dollars per anti missile missil to shot down rockets valued in the 100$ or maybe 1000$... Right now Iron dome is more costly than letting the rockets land where they will... (3) The demographic bomb coupled with the aparthied argument and international sanctions. I have an idea: Let's create a Native American state on the Potomac. It's their homeland. We'll give them one of the most powerful armies on earth to defend it. All the people in the DMV now can move to a refugee camp in Richmond. We'll need to put a big wall around it. (The analogy would be better if they had less right to the land than they do, but hopefully you see my point). If the United States was 2-3000 years old, and the Indians moving into the Potomac were all from Europe; that would be a fair comparison... but given the US is only 240 years old and the Indians are the folsk living here in the US on reservations today... I think the comparison fails to provide the real picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LVSkinz Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 typical bs BS my rear end. Nobody and least of all me are saying Israel has no right to defend its citizens but they're killing civilians in the hundreds and you're in here putting up petty arguments while failing to acknowledge that innocent people on the other side are greatly suffering. When you've seen first hand what it is really means to live under occupation come talk to me. Until then take in mind that it wasn't meant as a criticism, just an observation based on your posts. I have a lot of friends back home that at least come out and say they hate them and they're entitled to their opinion too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s0crates Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 If the United States was 2-3000 years old, and the Indians moving into the Potomac were all from Europe; that would be a fair comparison... but given the US is only 240 years old and the Indians are the folsk living here in the US on reservations today... I think the comparison fails to provide the real picture.Yeah I'm not too happy with the metaphor. I just wanted to get people to think how they would feel if they were the refugees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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