JMS Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Have you guys ever seen those nature videos where a couple of big hornets roll up into a honeybee colony and slaughter the bees by the thousands? Yes yes, I'm sure the death count will reach into the thousands if Israel invades... There are a lot of civilians in Gaza to kill... lots of women and kids too which will do Israel's PR no favors... Just as bad perhaps from an Israeli stand point is if they go into GAZA they very well might loose their second major ground battle in a row... Hezbollah backed by Iran in the 2006 summer war fought Israel to a stand still. First time in Israel's history that they left an opponent in the field like that and retreated.. That's what Israel is afraid of here. Cause the same Iranian engineers who helped Hezbollah design defenses which frustrated and ultimately defeated the IDF in 2006, are also advising and supplying weapons to HAMAS. Basically ISrael's doctrine for ground troops is like a mini US strategy... first they bomb, then they artillery... then they move forward with tanks and infantry. The Iranian defense tactic is to wait out the bombings in deep bunkers, and when the tanks roll up they take them out with sophisticated anti tank missiles.. and they have sophisticated anti personell weapons for the infantry... It's how Israel lost more tanks in 2006 than we lost in two Iraqi wars and Afghanistan.. ( didn't really use many tanks though in Afghanistan ).... Anyway that's the fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted July 17, 2014 Author Share Posted July 17, 2014 http://bigstory.ap.org/article/paris-bans-pro-palestinian-protest-amid-tensions PARIS BANS PRO-PALESTINIAN PROTEST AMID TENSIONS French authorities are forbidding pro-Palestinian protests in some cities after violence marred a recent march against the violence in Gaza, as Jewish-Muslim tensions in France have reached their highest level in years. Moderates on both sides called Wednesday for calm, and for a halt to fighting in the Mideast. France has Western Europe's largest Muslim and Jewish populations, and Israeli-Palestinian unrest often translates into anger between the communities. After several thousand pro-Palestinian demonstrators marched peacefully Sunday through Paris, clashes broke out among small groups, including some who attacked synagogues, Jewish stores and neighborhoods. Militants from the Jewish Defense League were also involved in violence against pro-Palestinian demonstrators, according to Roger Cukierman, head of France's leading Jewish organization, CRIF. Speaking Wednesday to the Associated Press, he denounced the league's violent methods and lamented that its actions Sunday — including provoking pro-Palestinian protesters — could further inflame anger. http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/17/us-palestinians-israel-idUSKBN0FI04420140717?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&utm_source=twitter Shelling kills four boys on Gaza beach; Israel, Hamas set five-hour truce Israel and Hamas said they would cease attacks for five hours on Thursday for a humanitarian truce requested by the United Nations. The Israeli military said it would "cease operational activity" for five hours beginning at 10 a.m. (3 a.m. EDT) on Thursday to permit Gazans to attend to humanitarian needs, but would respond "firmly and decisively" if Islamist Hamas militants launched attacks against Israel during that time. Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri said the "militant factions accepted the offer by the United Nations for calm in the field for five hours between 10:00 a.m. and 15:00 on Thursday, for humanitarian needs." More on the beach shelling http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/17/world/middleeast/gaza-strip-beach-explosion-kills-children.html?_r=0 Alon Ben-David, a well-sourced Israeli military affairs analyst, said on Israeli television that the first beach blast targeted a structure that Israel believed was used by Hamas. He said the second blast might have been aimed at the running children, perhaps mistaken for militants. He added that given the military’s technologically advanced surveillance equipment, “it is a little hard for me to understand this, because the images show that the figures are children.” At the Bakr family house on Wednesday afternoon, women wept and wailed. One cursed both Israel and Hamas. Another, Nasreen al-Bakr, noted quietly that Hamas had killed 10 of her family members in factional fighting. Relatives identified the boys as Mohammad, 11 or 12, Ismail, 9, Zakariya, 10, and Ahed, 7 or 9, an only son with seven sisters. In the chaos of an extended family milling about in mourning, there was some confusion about the ages. Ms. Bakr, 27, said that the day before, she had opposed a proposed cease-fire, wanting to hold out for “a solution” that would end Israel’s restrictions on fishing and allow the family to resume its livelihood. “Not today,” she said, then reconsidered, adding, “Today, too.” Her nephew’s blood, she reasoned, should not be in vain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Shelling kills four boys on Gaza beach; Israel, Hamas set five-hour truce So much for Israel doesn't target civilians... We live in a state where firecrackers and bottlerockets on the fourth of july are against the law due to safty issues . There is no safe way to shoot hellfire missiles, clusterbombs, or white phosphorus into one of the most densly populated areas on earth, without hitting women and children... Without hitting mostly women and children and innocents; which is exactly what Israel is doing... The Hamas fighters have bunkers and are wating for the invasion... It's the civilians who are left to fend for themselves. According to othe United Nations as repoted by CNN and ABC News of the more than 200 people killed so far in Gaza, most have reportedly been innocents, and 40 have been children. [url=http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/17/world/meast/mideast-conflict-children http://abcnews.go.com/International/growing-death-toll-gaza-israel/story?id=24574035 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 So, Israel is lying when they say that Hamas is shooting their rockets from civilian locations? This is already a week old, but http://time.com/2971665/israel-steps-up-offensive-as-diplomacy-kicks-off/ Israel accuses militants of deliberately endangering civilians by using homes and other civilian buildings for cover. The military has also directly targeted the homes of known militants that it says are used as command centers, though it says it contacts the families first to evacuate. Yigal Palmor, an Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman, said Hamas is firing rockets from “within houses and streets and neighborhoods which are populated with civilians … exposing these civilians to retaliation and to backfire.” This is a lie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 So, Israel is lying when they say that Hamas is shooting their rockets from civilian locations? This is already a week old, but http://time.com/2971665/israel-steps-up-offensive-as-diplomacy-kicks-off/ This is a lie? SkinsGoldPants... what part of IT's A CITY are you not getting?... It's not just a city; it's one of the most densly populated citys on earth. The entire place is a civilian area. That's the point. You can't fire hellfire missiles into an appartment building to hit a Hamas dude without killing 10 innocents.. And as a matter of fact... these boys were playing on the beach within eyeshot of a group of International reporters. One reporter was kicking the soccer ball with these kids just moments before the Israeli missile blew them along with a bunch of other innocent bystanders.... So yeah... Israel is lieing... They are lieing that they can use these munitions in such an urban environment and still have safeguards for innocents. And they are lying that they are only targeting Hamas occupied locations.. There were no Hamas fighters anywhere near these boys, they were right next to a hotel and a group of International TV reporters. Here Israel shot two missiles right at the boys. The first one got the boys running for shelter.. the second one killed them... The first shell struck a fisherman's hut on a jetty by the beach where the boys' game had taken them. As a plume of smoke rose from the blast, several of the boys dashed across the sand, seeking cover. But they couldn't outrun the second shell, which whizzed in and exploded right by them. .... They died within eyeshot of a hotel housing several international journalists, some of whom joined in efforts to help people who were wounded in the shelling. .... Another journalist said he had spent time playing with the boys. "Minutes before they were killed by our hotel, I was kicking a ball with them," NBC News Foreign Correspondent Ayman Mohyeldin said on Twitter. http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/17/world/meast/mideast-conflict-children Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Edit - Nevermind. You think they are lying. I think in a lot of instances Hamas is using Civilians as human shields. I also believe there are innocents who get killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Video Shows Gaza Residents Acting as Human Shields http://www.newsweek.com/video-shows-gaza-residents-acting-human-shields-israeli-forces-258223 How do you get around this if you're going to retaliate against a rocket attack? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 I think I'm getting it pretty well. What I'm asking you is has Hamas used civilians as human shields? Yes or No? I have no idea.. Has Israel targeted bystanders before and lied about it? Yes... I mean pick which decade.. they do it all the time... Israel has no credibility when it comes to bombing innocent people. They deserve no credibility they have a history of it. They bombed the US embassy and tried to blame it on Egypt. They've Bombed US ship, killing 34 killed / 171 injured US sailors, and claimed it was accidental.. They've bombed UN refugee camps multiple times. They've bombed Canadian Peace Keepers before with artilery, claimed it was accidental, only to have the Canadians produce film of an Israeli drone overhead their base observing for the attilery batteries. They've bombed using outlawed cluserbombs and white phosporus on urban civilian populations... a violation of international law.. a war crime. And these are the guys who you think have credibility here?.. Israel has no credibility.. They are in the business of terrorizing civilians to try to influence HAMAS. The bombing is punitive. You can't target a Hamas shoulder launched rocket launcher because they are gone moments after the rocket's shot... So Israel just strikes out into the population destroying peers, and boys playing soccer. Killing civilians at the rate of 10-1. Anything to inflict pain on the Palistinians. It's criminal, and they are using US weponry to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rictus58 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Once they're on the roof, they are no longer civilians. They are taking an active role in the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 So, a guy launches a rocket from a school or hospital and "vanishes". What is the solution to stop the next rocket attack? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rictus58 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 So, a guy launches a rocket from a school or hospital and "vanishes". What is the solution to stop the next rocket attack? *raises hand* open borders to allow suicide bombers in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 So, a guy launches a rocket from a school or hospital and "vanishes". What is the solution to stop the next rocket attack? There was no rocket fired from that beach... They hit a peer which fisherman, when they were allowed to fish used; and then they targeted boys 9-11 running for their lives. Israel has no credibility.. none.. they don't deserve any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 So, a guy launches a rocket from a school or hospital and "vanishes". What is the solution to stop the next rocket attack? So, a guy launches a rocket from a school or a hospital and "vanishes", and I blow up the school. Have I stopped the next rocket attack? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Once they're on the roof, they are no longer civilians. They are taking an active role in the war. Once a 9 yo is playing soccer on the beach and is targeted by two Israeli missiles he's an active participant in the war too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rictus58 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Once a 9 yo is playing soccer on the beach and is targeted by two Israeli missiles he's an active participant in the war too. 2 rockets for one person is a bit of overkill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Once a 9 yo is playing soccer on the beach and is targeted by two Israeli missiles he's an active participant in the war too. and the solution is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 So, a guy launches a rocket from a school or hospital and "vanishes". What is the solution to stop the next rocket attack? You cannot warehouse 1.8 million people in 20 mile long strip of desert for 70 years, lob bombs in occassionally and suggest your obligations are covered. 2 rockets for one person is a bit of overkill. Israel doesn't use rockets... They use missiles which are much more accurate.. They killed 4 boys on the beach, and twenty others were injured.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpyaks3 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 and the solution is? Stop colonizing and oppressing the Palestinian people. Stop being an apartheid state. Stop illegally occupying Palestinian land. Or they could always abide by the ceasefire which they failed to do in 2008 when the rockets did stop.... Here is Hamas' rumored list of demands, all seem reasonable to me.... Mutual cessation of the war and withdrawal of tanks to previous locations and the return of farmers to work their land in the agricultural border areas. Release of all the Palestinians detained since 23 June 2014 and improvement of the conditions of Palestinian prisoners, especially the prisoners from Jerusalem, Gaza and Palestinians of the interior [present-day Israel]. Total lifting of the siege of Gaza and opening the border crossings to goods and people and allowing in all food and industrial supplies and construction of a power plant sufficient to supply all of Gaza. Construction of an international seaport and an international airport supervised by the UN and non-biased countries. Expansion of the maritime fishing zone to 10 kms and supplying fishermen with larger fishing and cargo vessels. Converting the Rafah crossing into an international crossing under supervision of the UN and Arab and friendly countries. Signing a 10-year truce agreement and deployment of international monitors to the borders. Im literally repugging. A commitment by the occupation government not to violate Palestinian airspace and easing of conditions for worshipers in al-Aqsa mosque. The occupation will not interfere in the affairs of the Palestinian government and will not hinder national reconciliation. Restoration of the border industrial areas and their protection and development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 and the solution is? The solution for the rockets is all about a proportional response... Israel has lost one person due to these rockets... send in an Israeli snipper and select some Hamas leutenant or captain and take him out nice and clean... Then take an add out in the newspaper and say, that guy was a response to this guy... Don't kill 2-3-1000 palistinians, most of whome are innocent; becasue you're pissed off. And don't use anti tank or anti personell weapons in the middle of an urban center and expect to have any credibility when you deny targeting civilians. You don't use those kinds of weapons in this setting if you are trying to avoid civilan casualties. All the violence on both sides of these troubles are pointless. There is no military solution here for Israel or the Palistinians. When Israel goes nuts like this and uses overwhelming punitive response they are planting the seeds to tomorrows Hamas recruits... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan T. Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 There was no rocket fired from that beach... They hit a peer which fisherman, when they were allowed to fish used; and then they targeted boys 9-11 running for their lives. Israel has no credibility.. none.. they don't deserve any. They initially targeted a shipping container on the beach used by Hamas as a storage site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpyaks3 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 They initially targeted a shipping container on the beach used by Hamas as a storage site. Kind of like how the center for the disabled was allegedly a terrorist hotbed. I think we are far past the point where we should simply take the IDF at its word, it has the blood of way too many civilians over way too many decades on its hands to just accept what they say as facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 The Kassam (sp?) Brigades agreed to those terms as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 They initially targeted a shipping container on the beach used by Hamas as a storage site. Why did they then blow up the peer and the kids running for shelter? Why do you believe anything Israel has to say given their track record? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan T. Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 Kind of like how the center for the disabled was allegedly a terrorist hotbed. I think we are far past the point where we should simply take the IDF at its word, it has the blood of way too many civilians over way too many decades on its hands to just accept what they say as facts. No one is entirely blameless. But I will continue to give the benefit of the doubt in defense issues to a nation about the size of New Jersey, 15 miles wide at its narrowest point, which is surrounded on all sides by a population sworn to wipe it from the face of the earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpyaks3 Posted July 17, 2014 Share Posted July 17, 2014 The Kassam (sp?) Brigades agreed to those terms as well? Hamas has shown it can control itself pretty well so if the leadership is putting that forth I am pretty sure they are all on board. Assuming they are it seems like this should be an easy agreement for Israel to make if they are really looking for peace. No one is entirely blameless. But I will continue to give the benefit of the doubt in defense issues to a nation about the size of New Jersey, 15 miles wide at its narrowest point, which is surrounded on all sides by a population sworn to wipe it from the face of the earth. What population is that? Are you saying that Egypt and Jordan who have peace treaties for decades with Israel are sworn to wipe it from the Earth? What about Turkey? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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