twa Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 BS my rear end. Nobody and least of all me are saying Israel has no right to defend its citizens but they're killing civilians in the hundreds and you're in here putting up petty arguments while failing to acknowledge that innocent people on the other side are greatly suffering. When you've seen first hand what it is really means to live under occupation come talk to me. Until then take in mind that it wasn't meant as a criticism, just an observation based on your posts. I have a lot of friends back home that at least come out and say they hate them and they're entitled to their opinion too. pointing out a error is petty? bs is throwing out the racist tag. I certainly agree the innocent are suffering there, no disputing that......the reasons why are a another matter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LVSkinz Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 From your perspective, do you think Israel has a military path to long term security? It seems to me the IDF has basically been playing whackamole since the 40's. They are more treading water than comprehensively defeating Israel's antagonists. Curious to hear your take on it. To me the bottom line is it's impossible for anyone that hasn't experienced living under an occupation to fathom exactly what it entails, and I couldn't either until I saw it first hand. I trained dogs for an IDF until called Sting and was called out to the territories once for a few days, and I while I didn't witness anything grusome (Several of my friends did during their service and their stories aren't pretty) it's pretty hear wrenching to see human beings have to live like that. The murderers among them came to power because people that have been opressed for decades tend to make decisions that you and I would consider unreasonable because they have had their dignity taken away. Israel was fighting for existance in the 40s when my grandfather came from a concentration camp and faught in the independance war and even in the 60s and 70s when my uncle was serving as a battle pilot and my dad was army intelligence (This is why my patience runs thin with quasi zionists that hate Arabs because they're told to do so by Fox News and haven't set foot in the region or lived the conflict first hand) so I'm extremely proud of my country and my people, but we're not in danger of being over ran by any of our neighbours. There is simply no room for a modern, civillized, forward thinking people to continue a forcefull occupation and I can tell you for a fact most people on both sides just want to live in peace, like they do in a small part of the north of Israel in which Jews and Arabs lead lives like you and I do. (coinicidence?) Hamas being in power makes things a lot more complicated because they only know violence, but do we have the military capacity to let the Palastinian people live their lives and snuff out the snakes that would be laying in wait? Absolutely. Ending the occupation won't produce absolute peace the next morning, but Israel is more than capable of handling the aftermath. Until then, people that are opressed will do whatever it takes to fight it and innocent people on both sides will suffer due to the evil of the governments on both sides. pointing out a error is petty? bs is throwing out the racist tag. I certainly agree the innocent are suffering there, no disputing that......the reasons why are a another matter You know a whole lot less than you think about the reasons why. A WHOLE LOT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 pointing out a error is petty? bs is throwing out the racist tag. I certainly agree the innocent are suffering there, no disputing that......the reasons why are a another matter Is their suffering their own fault? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Israel was fighting for existance in the 40s when my grandfather came from a concentration camp and faught in the independance war and even in the 60s and 70s when my uncle was serving as a battle pilot and my dad was army intelligence (This is why my patience runs thin with quasi zionists that hate Arabs because they're told to do so by Fox News and haven't set foot in the region or lived the conflict first hand) so I'm extremely proud of my country and my people, but we're not in danger of being over ran by any of our neighbours. There is simply no room for a modern, civillized, forward thinking people to continue a forcefull occupation and I can tell you for a fact most people on both sides just want to live in peace, like they do in a small part of the north of Israel in which Jews and Arabs lead lives like you and I do. (coinicidence?) You know a whole lot less than you think about the reasons why. A WHOLE LOT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 well I guess ignorant racist is the next step Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 You know a whole lot less than you think about the reasons why. A WHOLE LOT. In fairness to twa, he read a blog Jus jokes twa don't shut off the oil. God Bless Texas, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Caretaker Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 The israeli side of the argument seems to have devolved into "because reasons", Israeli has a right to defend itself, but it does not have the right to commit the atrocities it has commited in this conflict. 500+ deaths and over 3000 casualties is bordering on genocide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpyaks3 Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Nisreen AlShawa @iNeescafe 42s 124 Palestinians killed in 24 hours in #Gaza (10am, 20 July - 10am, 21 July). 107 were civilians, including 45 children, 26 women @pchrgaza For a side that doesn't "target" civilians Israel sure seems to kill a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpyaks3 Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 To me the bottom line is it's impossible for anyone that hasn't experienced living under an occupation to fathom exactly what it entails, and I couldn't either until I saw it first hand. I trained dogs for an IDF until called Sting and was called out to the territories once for a few days, and I while I didn't witness anything grusome (Several of my friends did during their service and their stories aren't pretty) it's pretty hear wrenching to see human beings have to live like that. The murderers among them came to power because people that have been opressed for decades tend to make decisions that you and I would consider unreasonable because they have had their dignity taken away. Israel was fighting for existance in the 40s when my grandfather came from a concentration camp and faught in the independance war and even in the 60s and 70s when my uncle was serving as a battle pilot and my dad was army intelligence (This is why my patience runs thin with quasi zionists that hate Arabs because they're told to do so by Fox News and haven't set foot in the region or lived the conflict first hand) so I'm extremely proud of my country and my people, but we're not in danger of being over ran by any of our neighbours. There is simply no room for a modern, civillized, forward thinking people to continue a forcefull occupation and I can tell you for a fact most people on both sides just want to live in peace, like they do in a small part of the north of Israel in which Jews and Arabs lead lives like you and I do. (coinicidence?) Hamas being in power makes things a lot more complicated because they only know violence, but do we have the military capacity to let the Palastinian people live their lives and snuff out the snakes that would be laying in wait? Absolutely. Ending the occupation won't produce absolute peace the next morning, but Israel is more than capable of handling the aftermath. Until then, people that are opressed will do whatever it takes to fight it and innocent people on both sides will suffer due to the evil of the governments on both sides. You know a whole lot less than you think about the reasons why. A WHOLE LOT. Incredible respect for you to serve your country and take exactly the right message/lesson from it. I wish more Israelis did the same. How do you see the Israeli left fairing out of all this? It seems like anytime they protest or do anything against the war and occupation ****head right wingers end up basically forming a lynch mob and attacking them in incidents like this. Israeli racist right wingers brutalizing peace activists, including beating the Hairfa deputy mayor and his son, while shouting charming things like 'death to arabs' and 'gas the lefties': Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilMonkeyBoy Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 500+ deaths and over 3000 casualties is bordering on genocide. Actually read an article yesterday where the Economic Minister had the stones to say that this is "Self-Genocide" http://news.sky.com/story/1304322/israel-minister-accuses-hamas-of-self-genocide "The only difference between us and Hamas in Gaza is that they are deliberately sending their women and children to stand next to missile launchers in order for them to get killed, and then they cry to the world that they are being killed. They were all standing next to the missile launchers, ALL OF THEM. Really! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 The israeli side of the argument seems to have devolved into "because reasons", Israeli has a right to defend itself, but it does not have the right to commit the atrocities it has commited in this conflict. 500+ deaths and over 3000 casualties is bordering on genocide. Hey, "war is hell". Deal with it I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 In fairness to twa, he read a blog Jus jokes twa don't shut off the oil. God Bless Texas, etc. I read the Egyptian press ....and once bought a sandwich from a refugee. be nice and we will buy the co2 from coal and make ya viable again ......or gig ya with a longhorn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Obama is doing a real crap job of being a "secret Muslim" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 odd casualty equals dead to you how many of those 500 were fighters? they must not be trying hard http://cnsnews.com/news/article/patrick-goodenough/mass-rallies-held-gaza-much-larger-death-toll-syria-ignored heard today Israel's dead count is up to 30... vs 500... heard nothing about Israeli casualties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 heard today Israel's dead count is up to 30... I hadn't heard anything about ANY. (Which kinda goes to the people complaining about disproportionate coverage). Assume these deaths are military troops, in combat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 To me the bottom line is it's impossible for anyone that hasn't experienced living under an occupation to fathom exactly what it entails, and I couldn't either until I saw it first hand. Thank you for the thoughtful response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 I hadn't heard anything about ANY. (Which kinda goes to the people complaining about disproportionate coverage). Assume these deaths are military troops, in combat? WashingtonPost just posted 25 Israeli's and 560 Palestinians have been killed through Monday. http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/palestinian-death-toll-rises-in-gaza-fighting-israel-thwarts-infiltration-attempts/2014/07/21/114b697a-10bf-11e4-98ee-daea85133bc9_story.html Seven more Israeli soldiers were killed in fierce fighting Monday, bringing the Israeli military toll to 25 dead, more than twice as many as in Israel’s last Gaza ground incursion in 2009 and the highest toll since Israel’s war with Lebanon in 2006. Two Israeli civilians have died in the conflict. More than 560 people in Gaza, many of them women and children, have been killed since Israel’s Operation Protective Edge began. The fresh casualties came a day after 13 Israelis were killed in combat in the east Gaza neighborhood of Shijaiyah, the bloodiest day of the conflict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Assume these deaths are military troops, in combat? Most of the 25 Israeli killed are soldiers... Israel has reported 2 civilian deaths... I know one was from a rocket attack... not sure how the other Israeli citizen was killed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Most of the 25 Israeli killed are soldiers... Israel has reported 2 civilian deaths... I know one was from a rocket attack... not sure how the other Israeli citizen was killed... How many of the Palestinians were soldiers/jihadists? by your metric the Israelis need to kill nearly 2,500 more?(100 to 1) just getting the accounting rules set Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 How many of the Palestinians were soldiers/jihadists? by your metric the Israelis need to kill nearly 2,500 more?(100 to 1) just getting the accounting rules set The numbers changed when Israel invaded... the 200 Palestinian death to every Israeli death was true earlier in the conflict. Now it's closer to 22 to 1... which is still pretty extreme... CNN is saying 573 Palestinians have been killed and the UN is estimating 70% (400 people) have been civilians... The IDF is reporting dozens of Hamas members killed. ( 24 fighters or 4% of those killed were Hamas fighters) http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/21/world/meast/mideast-crisis/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpyaks3 Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 How many of the Palestinians were soldiers/jihadists? by your metric the Israelis need to kill nearly 2,500 more?(100 to 1) just getting the accounting rules set Less than a third. So thats 400 civilians killed. Is your gameplan for this thread just to pathetically deflect or are you actually going to come out and craft an argument that isn't based on snarky dismissals of hundreds of dead civilians or trying to shift the discussion to anything but what is happening in Gaza? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 Less than a third. So thats 400 civilians killed. Is your gameplan for this thread just to pathetically deflect or are you actually going to come out and craft an argument that isn't based on snarky dismissals of hundreds of dead civilians or trying to shift the discussion to anything but what is happening in Gaza? my gameplan is to get facts out.....like the fact w/o the rocket attacks the ground attack would not be happening going into densely populated areas after fortified positions with opponents that utilize civilians as cover is deadly for both. now go whine some more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpyaks3 Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 my gameplan is to get facts out.....like the fact w/o the rocket attacks the ground attack would not be happening going into densely populated areas after fortified positions with opponents that utilize civilians as cover is deadly for both. now go whine some more Your first fact is entirely inaccurate. The rockets weren't firing in 2008 when Hamas abided by the ceasefire. Guess what happened? Israel broke it and a ground invasion where 800 + civilians were killed. Your second fact is also disingenuous considering that Israel is the side with a history of using civilians as shields Also http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-the-myth-of-hamass-human-shield-9619810.html Some Gazans have admitted that they were afraid of criticizing Hamas, but none have said they had been forced by the organisation to stay in places of danger and become unwilling human-shields. The Bani Sobeila area, near Khan Younis, where the Abu Jamaa deaths took place received leaflets dropped from the air last week warning them to leave.... There was denial of coercion by Hamas. “I am not going to go because I can do something Hamas cannot do”, maintained Nabil al-Masri. “I know from times before that if Israeli soldiers get into an empty house they will ruin it on purpose. Hamas cannot stop them going into my house if we leave, but, by staying here we can try to make sure that doesn’t happen.” So for someone trying to "get facts out" you are doing an awful job considering both of your "facts" are absolutely incorrect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 you want to talk about this ground invasion or deflect? We can rehash history if ya wish though so they are afraid to criticize Hamas and none admit coercion?....that what ya wanna go with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpyaks3 Posted July 22, 2014 Share Posted July 22, 2014 you want to talk about this ground invasion or deflect? We can rehash history if ya wish though so they are afraid to criticize Hamas and none admit coercion?....that what ya wanna go with? Well all we can go on is Israels past actions and those show that the "rockets" don't have any effect on whether or not Israel invades. As for your second point, care to prove your assertion that Hamas systematically hides behind civilians. And no fighting in an urban area doesn't count because the entirety of the Gaza strip is urban. Any thoughts on the 400+ dead civilians or the fact that Israel has bombed a hospital, center for the disabled, and countless homes and mosques while having a 1/3 chance of hitting someone they deem a "terrorist"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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