Section106 Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Or you could blame the side that is killing innocents rather than throwing all the blame on the side resisting occupation. Also Israel isn't defending anything. They are the occupying power, they are the ones colonizing, they are the ones that set up the blockade of Gaza. How are they responsible for Israeli attacks? Once again you try to remove all blame from Israel and place it all on the victims. Yes they withdrew from Gaza but they implemented a blockade shortly after Hamas won elections. They also continued to restrict movement and colonize the West Bank. That is the root of the conflict. The rockets and the resistance are just reactions to that oppression. Also surprised there isn't more discussion of Israel's refusal to even discuss the 10 year truce that Hamas offered. I have no dog in this fight so if I'm wrong then I'm wrong. But what is the solution? If Israel truly feels that its existence is threatened then it is going to act to preserve itself. The spokesman said that the Hamas charter calls for the death of all Israelis. I don't think that is a good opening negotiating position. The spokesman also said that any negotiated peace would require security assurances from Hamas. I assume that means a strong Israeli military presence in the Gaza strip. Would Hamas agree to that? I don't know that they really have any other choices at this point. Israel is the heavy. Hamas needs to recognize that its current strategy isn't working and they need to try another tactic. Of course that assumes that Hamas is interested in peace and preserving and bettering the life of the people of the Gaza strip. Is there any way a Ghandi figure could rise up and advocate non-violence as a course of action on the Hamas side? Because from what I've seen Israel isn't going to budge when its security is threatened. And this isn't my calculus at play here. I am referring to what Israel perceives as its security and not an outsider's view of the proportionality of ability to wage war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEANDWARF Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Cartoon with a unique message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 Cartoon with a unique message. And just a bit distorted, too. (Although, not completely. There's some validity to it, too.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpyaks3 Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 I have no dog in this fight so if I'm wrong then I'm wrong. But what is the solution? If Israel truly feels that its existence is threatened then it is going to act to preserve itself. The spokesman said that the Hamas charter calls for the death of all Israelis. I don't think that is a good opening negotiating position. The spokesman also said that any negotiated peace would require security assurances from Hamas. I assume that means a strong Israeli military presence in the Gaza strip. Would Hamas agree to that? I don't know that they really have any other choices at this point. Israel is the heavy. Hamas needs to recognize that its current strategy isn't working and they need to try another tactic. Of course that assumes that Hamas is interested in peace and preserving and bettering the life of the people of the Gaza strip. Is there any way a Ghandi figure could rise up and advocate non-violence as a course of action on the Hamas side? Because from what I've seen Israel isn't going to budge when its security is threatened. And this isn't my calculus at play here. I am referring to what Israel perceives as its security and not an outsider's view of the proportionality of ability to wage war. Regarding the charter \Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal indicated to Robert Pastor, senior adviser to the Carter Center, that the Charter is "a piece of history and no longer relevant, but cannot be changed for internal reasons".[83] Hamas do not use the Charter on their website and prefer to use their election manifesto to put forth their agenda.[84][85] Pastor states that those who quote the charter rather than more recent Hamas statements may be using the Charter as an excuse to ignore Hamas.[83] 2. So Israel should have full control of the Gaza strip. Should Hamas require security assurances from Israel (considering Israel has killed a hundredfold the civilians Hamas has maybe this is a good idea)? All Hamas has to do is look to the north or to the east to see that Israel isn't acting in good faith. Look at the occupation in the West Bank. Fatah has done literally everything Israel has asked and what reward have they gotten? 100,000 more settlers, less land and less autonomy. So why in the hell should anyone believe Israel when it says it wants peace, all peace in the West Bank has gotten Palestinians is more Israeli colonialism. But look to the north where Israel occupied Lebanon for 20 years and were driven out by Hezbollah and to me it looks like the only way to get Israel to back off and leave you alone is to use force. Until Israel makes a good faith effort to stop colonizing the West Bank what message does that send to Hamas, cooperate with us and we will ramp up our oppression? 3. Palestine has tried non-violence. Guess what it didn't work. Hell it isn't working in the West Bank. This isn't a security thing this is a colonialism thing. Guess who else used security concerns for keeping an oppressive system in place. The Afrikaners in South Africa, the French in Algeria, the British in India, the British in Ireland. If Israel truly wanted security they would accept Hamas' 10 year truce offer but when security for Israel is stealing Palestinian land, water, and mineral rights and continuing a system of oppression then security will be tough to come by. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted July 20, 2014 Author Share Posted July 20, 2014 http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/20/world/middleeast/palestinians-find-show-of-support-lacking-from-arab-nations-amid-offensive.html?_r=1 Palestinians Find Show of Support Lacking From Arab Leaders Amid Offensive Three years ago there was a hope that a growing movement for democracy might make Arab countries more supportive of the Palestinians, as governments grew more responsive to the people and their demands. But during the latest bloodshed in Gaza, the opposite has occurred, according to supporters of the Palestinians, who found the official Arab reaction incoherent, at times providing cover for the Israeli military assault. The governments were accused of dithering at critical moments during the recent Israeli military offensive, where in the past, Palestinians counted on them to at least muster some diplomatic pressure to make it stop. Their feuds broke out in public, and Egypt even blamed Hamas, the Islamist movement in Gaza, rather than Israel, for dozens of Palestinian deaths. “None of the Arab countries are being supportive. The entire burden is on the Palestinians,” said Mondher Maamar, a Tunisian protester who marched in support of Palestinians in Gaza in his country’s capital on Friday. For decades across the Arab world, polls have shown there is no cause that resonates more than the struggle of the Palestinians. That has remained true during the fight in Gaza, which has captured the region’s attention despite Syria’s civil war and jihadist military advances in Iraq. But in the chaotic aftermath of the Arab uprisings, many regional governments appear more distracted than ever, by the new challenges to their rule, or in some cases, their intensifying fights against Islamist groups like Hamas. As a result, people in the region were “doubly disillusioned, with the inability of the governments to do anything about Israel, and their inability to achieve the goals of the uprisings,” he said. In Tunisia, regarded as the only country to stay on the democratic path after its revolt, leaders appeared to be paying closer attention to public sentiment, offering to send medicine to Gaza and to take in wounded children. Officials said they were trying to play a mediating role in the conflict — a role that Egypt seemed to be abdicating. “The Arab Spring started in Tunisia — we were the first to have a revolution, and we should be the first to condemn injustice and encourage freedom,” said Marwa Betlili, a student who attended the Tunis rally on Friday. The changing role of Egypt, long seen as a leader in the region and a frequent mediator in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, crystallized much of the anger. The shift came after the military ouster last year of Mohamed Morsi, a Muslim Brotherhood leader who was Egypt’s first fairly elected president, and a close ally of Hamas. After the takeover, the military-backed government waged a determined campaign against Hamas, using the courts and sympathetic media outlets to implicate the Palestinian movement in often-outlandish plots against the state. https://now.mmedia.me/lb/en/mena/556573-thousands-flee-gazas-shejaiya-casualties-lying-on-streets Thousands flee Gaza's Shejaiya, casualties lying on streets Thousands of people fled Gaza's eastern Shejaiya district early Sunday, many of them on foot, after heavy shelling left casualties lying in the streets, an AFP correspondent reported. Ambulances were unable to reach much of the area along the border because of heavy fire, and emergency services told AFP there were reports of dead and wounded trapped by the bombardment. Emergency services spokesperson Ashraf al-Qudra told AFP that the bodies of at least 20 people from Shejaiya had been retrieved, with hundreds of people wounded. He said the toll was expected to rise significantly. Paramedics said they were liaising with the International Committee of the Red Cross to try to coordinate entry into areas that were still under heavy fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted July 20, 2014 Author Share Posted July 20, 2014 https://twitter.com/bencnn CATASTROPHE IN SHAJA'ia. Thousands of terrified residents streaming on foot into Gaza City. Shelling on going. 2:09 AM People fleeing Shaja'ia speaking of horrific night of intense shelling, many dead and injured 2:09 AM from a distance Shaja'ia looks like a vision from hell-smoke, blasts,...can't imagine what it's like inside. 2:45 AM The people I spoke with coming out of Shaja'ia were on deep shock. Spoke of many dead and wounded, massive destruction. 3:28 AM The shelling of Shaja'ia has been continuous for at least 12 hours. And no sign of a let up. 3:48 AM Lots of awful terrible pictures on twitter now of dead, disfigured, blood covered children from the attacks on the town. https://twitter.com/Charles_Lister Reports emerging of possible #Hamas suicide bombing vs. an IDF tank inside Gaza. If confirmed, wld be the first such Hamas attack in 6yrs. 3:38 AM https://twitter.com/glcarlstrom Reports that a journalist (Khaled Hamad) was among the many killed by Israeli shelling in Shuja'iya this morning. 3:49 AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted July 20, 2014 Author Share Posted July 20, 2014 https://now.mmedia.me/lb/en/mena/556604-hamas-says-accepts-call-for-3-hour-humanitarian-truce Hamas says accepts call for 3-hour humanitarian truce The Islamist Hamas movement said Sunday it had accepted a proposal for a three-hour humanitarian ceasefire in Gaza it said was made by the International Committee of the Red Cross. "The ICRC contacted [us] and offered to broker a three-hour humanitarian truce to enable ambulances to evacuate the dead and wounded and Hamas accepted it," spokesperson Sami Abu Zuhri said in a statement. "Hamas agreed on it but the occupation refused it," he claimed, although Israeli public radio reported that the Israeli government was studying the proposal. Contacted by AFP, an ICRC spokesperson refused to confirm or deny the report, saying only: "We have been making every effort to ensure ways to evacuate the dead and the wounded." The move came as Israel continued pounding several neighborhoods east of Gaza City, leaving at least 40 people dead and nearly 400 wounded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilMonkeyBoy Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Enable ambulances to evacuate the dead and injured? I sure hope they still have a few that are still operable in the strip. I've read from multiple sources they've been shelling ambulances because they're totally just cover to transport the HAMAS supersoldiers and their weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted July 20, 2014 Author Share Posted July 20, 2014 https://twitter.com/AFP BREAKING: Gaza death toll passes 400: health ministry 7:03 AM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s0crates Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Is there any hope for the Palestinians? It seems Israel won't stop until they have all the land and there are no Palestinians left. Nobody in the international community seems willing to stand up for human decency. What a heartbreaking situation. Whoever thought the creation of Israel in 1948 was a good idea was a fool with a lot of blood on his hands. I can only hope the God these people believe in is real and they will have to answer to Him. I usually don't talk about this for fear of being falsely labeled an anti-Semite, but I'm just so disgusted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Whoever thought destroying Israel has a lot of blood on their hands.....peace bro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEANDWARF Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Is there any hope for the Palestinians? It seems Israel won't stop until they have all the land and there are no Palestinians left. Nobody in the international community seems willing to stand up for human decency. What a heartbreaking situation. Whoever thought the creation of Israel in 1948 was a good idea was a fool with a lot of blood on his hands. I can only hope the God these people believe in is real and they will have to answer to Him. I usually don't talk about this for fear of being falsely labeled an anti-Semite, but I'm just so disgusted. No I won't call you an anti-Semite, but just wondering where have you been for the last 50 years or so? Israel and Palestine have been at war since the creation of Israel. And fyi it not all Israel's fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpyaks3 Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 No I won't call you an anti-Semite, but just wondering where have you been for the last 50 years or so? Israel and Palestine have been at war since the creation of Israel. And fyi it not all Israel's fault. But the last 30 years or so has been Israels systematically colonizing and ethnically cleansing the Palestinian population. The fact is right now Israel is killing hundreds of civilians (thousands if we count the last decade) while they continue to oppress the Palestinians and steal their land and water rights. So I think its fair to question where you have been the last decade or two. And the colonization and oppression right now is all Israels fault because they hold all the power in the situation and could end the occupation tomorrow if they wanted to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 No I won't call you an anti-Semite, but just wondering where have you been for the last 50 years or so? Israel and Palestine have been at war since the creation of Israel. And fyi it not all Israel's fault. I'll certainly agree with you that the problems over there certainly aren't all Israel's fault. But, as long as we're pointing out that things people haven't actually said (but maybe have kinda implied, a little, if you're looking for it) that aren't true . . . . . I will point out that what's going on over there isn't the noble, outgunned and outnumbered Israelis, trying to slow the overwhelming tide of people trying to exterminate them, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 ya wanna hear a funny?the rockets found in the UN school? ....the UN returned them to Hamas .....with a stern lecture no doubt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s0crates Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Israel and Palestine have been at war since the creation of Israel.That's part of what I was saying. I got a little carried away with that post, it's just so horrible what's happening over there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpyaks3 Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Looks like Hamas captured an Israeli soldier. That is one of the few things that actually brings Israel to the table so it should be interesting how this plays out. GAZA CITY (Ma'an) -- The Hamas-affiliated al-Qassam Brigades said on Sunday night that it had kidnapped an Israeli soldier.Al-Qassam Brigades said during a speech by spokesman Abu Ubaida aired live on Ma'an News that the kidnapped soldier was named Shaul Aron and his military number was 6092065. http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=714871 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilMonkeyBoy Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Really solid headline & coverage from the Post today Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Section106 Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 3. Palestine has tried non-violence. Guess what it didn't work. Hell it isn't working in the West Bank. This isn't a security thing this is a colonialism thing. Guess who else used security concerns for keeping an oppressive system in place. The Afrikaners in South Africa, the French in Algeria, the British in India, the British in Ireland. If Israel truly wanted security they would accept Hamas' 10 year truce offer but when security for Israel is stealing Palestinian land, water, and mineral rights and continuing a system of oppression then security will be tough to come by. Well it looks like barring international intervention and a UN Peacekeeping Force that Palestine is screwed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Really solid headline & coverage from the Post today Fair and Balanced Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpyaks3 Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Gaza – Every night I seem to think it’s the worst night, until I go through the next one. I got so used to the house shaking and moving from the consecutive blasts that it now feels weird when everything is still. Flashing lights, the ground shaking all around, that’s my house during the current Israeli war on Gaza. Every day, Israeli warplanes bomb a new house; a mosque is hit; a car is blasted; a hospital is attacked. Even cemeteries and handicap associations are no longer safe. Every day, new people die, people who were once alive with hopes and dreams, are now nothing but a number in a news report. Life is so vulnerable in Gaza right now that your life can suddenly become a statistic. No one knows who will become a number, or when. When you live in a conflict zone, like Gaza, experiences force you little by little to create the best “Dos and Don’ts” warzone guidebook. After three wars in the space of six years, you manage to figure out the best ways to survive with the limited options available to you: http://english.al-akhbar.com/content/gaza-personal-account-trying-survive-israel%E2%80%99s-bombs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted July 21, 2014 Author Share Posted July 21, 2014 So far all it seems Israel has accomplished is to get many many more people killed on both sides. I don't really see how this operation ends with any positive result for either side. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/21/world/middleeast/israeli-gaza-conflict.html?_r=0 Kerry Expresses Frustration Over Civilian Toll in Gaza Secretary of State John F. Kerry strongly criticized Palestinian leaders on Sunday for rejecting a cease-fire plan, but he also appeared — in comments captured by a live microphone — to express exasperation with the high cost in civilian lives as Israel pressed its ground attack on Gaza. Mr. Kerry, who was expected to leave shortly for the region, had scheduled sweep of the five major network television programs when between interviews he spoke by cellphone to an unidentified aide. Chris Wallace, the interviewer for “Fox News Sunday,” confronted Mr. Kerry with a tape of those remarks during his appearance on that program. In it, Mr. Kerry is heard to say: “It’s a hell of a pinpoint operation. It’s a hell of a pinpoint operation. We’ve got to get over there. Thank you, John. I think, John, we ought to go tonight. I think it’s crazy to be sitting around.” The comments were without context, but Mr. Wallace’s questioning and Mr. Kerry’s reply seemed to make clear that the secretary had been speaking ironically about a “pinpoint operation” to express that he was disturbed by the deaths of Palestinian civilians, including many children, in an operation aimed at the militant extremists who have been smuggling arms into Gaza and raining rockets on Israel. Asked if he was “upset that the Israelis are going too far,” Mr. Kerry replied: “It’s very, very difficult in these situations.″ He continued: “I reacted, obviously, in a way that anybody does with respect to young children and civilians.” http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/21/world/middleeast/in-a-clash-between-israel-and-gaza-both-sides-use-social-media-to-fire-epithets-and-hide-behind-euphemisms.html In Gaza, Epithets Are Fired and Euphemisms Give Shelter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 So far all it seems Israel has accomplished is to get many many more people killed on both sides. I don't really see how this operation ends with any positive result for either side. What if your idea of "a positive result" is "20 more years of war"? I think there are at least ELEMENTS of both sides who believe exactly that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpyaks3 Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 What if your idea of "a positive result" is "20 more years of war"? I think there are at least ELEMENTS of both sides who believe exactly that. Well one side did offer a 10 year truce.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted July 21, 2014 Share Posted July 21, 2014 Cartoon with a unique message. Kind of a misleading message isn't it.. What with the death toll running 100's of Palestinians killed for every Israeli. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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