JMS Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 Yes, the parts of Israel that were already part of Israel would stay part of Israel. Why should that change? The problem with that is Nobody in the world considers the West bank part of Israel... Not even sure if Israel considers it part of Israel. Although they don't like folks calling it the occupied territories, ISrael hasn't formally annexed it as they did the Golan Heights. Likewise it's not the Palistinians who negotiated for parts of greater ISrael. Israel agreed to the premise of land for peace on the boundaries of the 1967 boarders and ISrael wanted the ability to echange some land for other land... For example Israel would trade land they want in Jerusalem, and exchange it for land in greater Israel somewhere else.. That's all been negotiated, in theory.. The specifics haven't, but the general outline has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 The cease fire had lasted about 6 months, but Hamas continued to amass weapons and dig new tunnels to smuggle weapons. Israel destroyed one of those tunnels, and in response, Hamas launched rockets. So do tell, what DOES that say about Hams' intent? Actually, they dug the tunnels mostly to smuggle food and cement. Because Israel has imposed a blockade on Gaza for 7 years now, and there are 1.5 million people stuck in a five mile wide strip of land with little access to food, jobs or building supplies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 Actually, they dug the tunnels mostly to smuggle food and cement. Because Israel has imposed a blockade on Gaza for 7 years now, and there are 1.5 million people stuck in a 150 square mile area with little access to food, jobs or building supplies. I honestly think economics plays a larger part in this than anyone likes to admit. It's amazing how peaceful Belfast became when the economy exploded there in the late 90s. Granted, I'm an idiot and have no idea how you turn Gaza into a Middle East version of Hong Kong, but I have a strong feeling this ongoing madness would end if it was a Middle East version of Hong Kong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 I honestly think economics plays a larger part in this than anyone likes to admit. It's amazing how peaceful Belfast became when the economy exploded there in the late 90s. Granted, I'm an idiot and have no idea how you turn Gaza into a Middle East version of Hong Kong, but I have a strong feeling this ongoing madness would end if it was a Middle East version of Hong Kong. Well, I think it's glaringly obvious that it's a whole lot easier to get people to throw rocks at incoming missiles if they've been starving for 20 years. (Although no doubt some won't admit it.) Now, whether economic prosperity is the only thing it would take, to get peace, that's a whole lot tougher to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 Now, whether economic prosperity is the only thing it would take, to get peace, that's a whole lot tougher to say. Well, I think it's safe to say there won't be economic prosperity without peace so that's not a question really worth exploring at the moment. But I think the idea that Israel and the Palestinians are locked into this conflict for the rest of human history is false. There needs to be some kind of peaceful settlement and then there needs to be some kind of economic growth. It's not like this is making the Israelis rich either. That is an economy with a serious issues that does not need to be lighting billions of dollars on fire every few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 There needs to be some kind of peaceful settlement and then there needs to be some kind of economic growth. Disagree with you about the sequence.I've had this fantasy for a few years, where Obama announces that he's decided to break the blockade. He won't allow weapons in, of course. But everything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 Disagree with you about the sequence. I've had this fantasy for a few years, where Obama announces that he's decided to break the blockade. He won't allow weapons in, of course. But everything else. I don't see that happening. But I do think something interesting is going to happen with US-Israeli relations at some point in the next generation. Evangelicals - who never vote for Democrats - now appear to be much stronger supporters of Israel than Jews - who rarely vote for Republicans. At some point, the parties are not going to be in lock-step on Israel. Obama has tested those waters a little bit, but I think it's still ten to fifteen years away from happening. http://mondoweiss.net/2013/10/american-identity-working.html More than half of U.S. Jews say U.S. support for Israel is about right (54%), although a substantial minority says the U.S. is not supportive enough of the Jewish state (31%), and 11% think the U.S. is too supportive. By comparison, 41% of the general public thinks support for Israel is about right, while the rest are nearly evenly divided between those who say the U.S. is not supportive enough (25%) and those who say it is too supportive of the Jewish state (22%). Interestingly, more white evangelical Protestants than Jews think the U.S. currently is not sufficiently supportive of Israel (46% vs. 31%). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted July 15, 2014 Author Share Posted July 15, 2014 Seems a lot of people in Gaza are getting texts from Israel to leave their houses. Something big appears to be coming. https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak Local media report the Israeli military is warning 100,000 Gaza City residents to leave their homes 5:45 PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 Yeah, I've been noticing that Obama really has been, well, as close to cracking down on Israel as we've ever been. And that the GOP has been treating them like they were the Koch Brothers or the NRA. Not really sure WHY. If it's just their policy of attacking everything Obama does. If they have this notion of pulling the Jewish vote away from the Dems. If it's the defense industry telling them to do it. But I've sure been noticing it. ---------- Seems a lot of people in Gaza are getting texts from Israel to leave their houses. Something big appears to be coming. https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak Oh, goody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 I honestly think economics plays a larger part in this than anyone likes to admit. It's amazing how peaceful Belfast became when the economy exploded there in the late 90s. Granted, I'm an idiot and have no idea how you turn Gaza into a Middle East version of Hong Kong, but I have a strong feeling this ongoing madness would end if it was a Middle East version of Hong Kong. The thing that made Belfast peaceful wasn't the economy.. It was the demographic bomb. Northern Ireland was a democracy and the Catholics who were once the minority eclipsed the Protestant Anglican birth rate. So it became a forgone conclusion that the Catholics would win the struggle if they just waited another few years. When the UK said they would continue to honor a popular vote even after the Catholics had become the majority they IRA and UK governments declaired peace... The same demographic bomb is currently going off in Israel. Today jews are a minority in the lands they occupy and greater Israel. Which is why some extreme Israeli PM's like Arial Sharon who were never friends of the Palestinians came out advocating for a two state solution. Either you create a separate state for the Palestinians; or face the South African Apartheid argument... An argument which spurred embargo's and crushed the much more larger and more balanced economy of South Africa necessitating the end of Apartheid. That is probable the second largest existential threat to Israel on the horizon... The first largest is somebody figuring out how to put a guidance system on those damned rockets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 It's not like this is making the Israelis rich either. That is an economy with a serious issues that does not need to be lighting billions of dollars on fire every few years. Israel doesn't pay for it's wars.. we do... We always have. If you map US aid to Israeli wars you will notice that after every major ISraeli war US aid jumps significantly.. we are talking double, triple or even quadrupling. Bottom line is Israel defends herself with US weapons.. Our weapons are good, but they are also expensive as hell. We can barely afford to use them without putting our economy into recession, much less little Israel. Yeah, I've been noticing that Obama really has been, well, as close to cracking down on Israel as we've ever been. And that the GOP has been treating them like they were the Koch Brothers or the NRA. Not really sure WHY. If it's just their policy of attacking everything Obama does. If they have this notion of pulling the Jewish vote away from the Dems. If it's the defense industry telling them to do it. But I've sure been noticing it. ---------- Oh, goody. It's the born again evangelical Christians and the rapture. Fundamentalist Christians believe after Israel regains all her ancestral lands... That will be the first step in the returning of Jesus Christ to the earth.. The Fundi's believe they next will be taken from earth, Israel will be destroyed in what amounts to a nuclear war killing all the jews; and then Jesus comes back to earth and rules in peace for 500 years... If you've ever witnessed a fundamental Christian explaining their support to an Israeli it's priceless. To the Israeli's credit though they are happy to accept the political and financial aid from the American far right community. Seems a lot of people in Gaza are getting texts from Israel to leave their houses. Something big appears to be coming. https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak I wonder where they expect them to go.. these 100,000 Palestinians... their summer homes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted July 16, 2014 Author Share Posted July 16, 2014 http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.605363 Behind the scenes of the short-lived cease-fire While the Egyptians hammered out a deal with Netanyahu, Hamas and most of the Israeli cabinet were kept out of the loop. The Egyptian cease-fire proposal that was published Monday night took most members of the diplomatic-security cabinet by complete surprise. Economy Minister Naftali Bennett heard about it in a television studio moments before going on air. Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman heard about it on the radio. A senior Israeli official said Lieberman knew that talks were being held with the Egyptians, but had no idea a proposal was being finalized. Upon hearing the news, he realized that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Defense Minister Moshe Ya’alon, who were running the talks, had left him out of the loop. The final proposal was drafted by Egyptian intelligence in cooperation with the Egyptian Foreign Ministry. The Israeli negotiating team was comprised mainly of senior defense officials, plus Netanyahu’s envoy Isaac Molho. The Foreign Ministry was quarantined; not a single Israeli diplomat was included on the team. A senior Israeli official said most of the negotiations over the cease-fire took place between Egypt and Israel. Palestinian factions in the Gaza Strip were also surprised to learn of the Egyptian cease-fire proposal, especially Hamas, which still views itself as the sovereign in Gaza. All the factions knew that talks about a cease-fire were taking place, but they had expected Egyptian intelligence to fully coordinate any serious proposal with them, as had been the case in the past. They did not expect to hear about it from the media – nor did they expect that Egypt would coordinate with Israel but not with them. When a member of the Israeli team asked whether Hamas would agree to the terms of the initiative, the Egyptians tried to reassure him, saying that if Israel agreed, Hamas would have no choice but to do the same. In reality, the opposite occurred. The Egyptians gave Hamas’ political leadership minimal information and didn’t communicate with members of its military wing at all. The internal disputes between these two wings further contributed to the confusion, and to Hamas’ feeling that Egypt was pulling a fast one. When the diplomatic-security cabinet met Tuesday morning, there was no real discussion of the Egyptian proposal. Netanyahu, one minister said, presented the proposal as a fait accompli to which no changes were possible. https://now.mmedia.me/lb/en/mena/555970-israel-warns-100000-gazans-to-leave-homes Israel warns 100,000 Gazans to leave homes The Israeli army has warned some 100,000 Palestinians in the eastern Gaza Strip to evacuate their homes, military sources said Wednesday. AFP correspondents saw flyers dropped over the Zeitun neighborhood southeast of Gaza City, and residents there and elsewhere also reported receiving recorded phone and text messages urging them to evacuate by 0500 GMT. The flyers explained that the army would be carrying out "aerial strikes against terror sites and operatives" in Zeitun and Shujaiya, since "a high volume of rocket fire at Israel" was from there. A similar message was sent to residents of Beit Lahiya in northern Gaza. "The evacuation is for your own safety," the leaflet read, warning residents to not return to their homes until further notice. Similar messages had been sent to Beit Lahiya with a Sunday deadline, causing the exodus of 17,000 people who took shelter in United Nations schools. Since July 8, militants have fired nearly 1,000 rockets and mortars into the Jewish state, and Israel has carried out around 1,500 strikes against targets inside the Gaza Strip, the army says. Palestinian medical sources said 205 people were killed in the Israeli strikes. On Tuesday, the first Israeli was killed by a rocket fired from Gaza at the Erez border crossing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s0crates Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Lord save us from the people who love you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted July 16, 2014 Author Share Posted July 16, 2014 http://linkis.com/www.theguardian.com/prbTk Witness to a shelling: first-hand account of deadly strike on Gaza port The retaining wall of Gaza's harbour sticks out into the Mediterranean about 100 metres from the terrace of al-Deira hotel, base to many of the journalists covering the conflict in Gaza. The first of the artillery shells came in a little after 4pm on Wednesday as I was writing on the hotel's terrace. There is a deafening explosion as it hits a structure on the pier, a place we have seen hit before, where fishermen usually store their nets. Behind the smoke, I see four figures running, silhouettes whose legs are pumping raggedly. They clear the smoke. From their size it is clear they are a man and three young boys. Where the harbour wall ends and the beach starts, there are a few brightly coloured tents and chairs for beach users in more peaceful times. The four figures jump on to the beach and begin running towards us and the safety of the hotel. Only afterwards do we discover there are four others who are dead, all children, lying on the wall. I am shown a picture of one of the dead boys, his skin scorched and bruised. Their names are released later: Ahed Bakr, aged 10; Zakaria, 10; and two other boys from the Bakr family, both named Mohammad, aged 11 and nine. The second shell catches the survivors as they reach the brightly coloured tents. As it explodes, my colleagues, now standing by the terrace wall, shout at unseen Israeli gunners who can't hear them: "They are only children." Seeing reports now that Israel has agreed to or is proposing a six hour cease fire (one report said the UN asked for it, another said that it was Israel's idea) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 I sure wish I could be certain that there wasn't a weapons cache on that pier. But I can't. And yeah, I know that "well, there's no proof that they weren't guilty of terrorism" is a rotten standard to use, too. But I have to confess that there's enough terrorism, there, that the presumption of innocence is hard to maintain, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brandymac27 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 I don't pretend to have the answers to this never ending conflict, but I do hope the U.S. stays out of it. Israel really needs to consider what it's doing. I can only hope the U.S. has some empathy and reconsiders it's relationship with Israel (I've thought this for quite a while now). What they're doing to Gaza is so similar to what happened to Native Americans IMHO. If we have issues with that, why do we not have issues with what Israel is doing to Palestinians? ETA: Of ALL people who you'd think would understand a group's plight for their own land and freedom, you'd think it would be the Israeli's, but what do I know??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 I don't pretend to have the answers to this never ending conflict, but I do hope the U.S. stays out of it. Israel really needs to consider what it's doing. I can only hope the U.S. has some empathy and reconsiders it's relationship with Israel (I've thought this for quite a while now). What they're doing to Gaza is so similar to what happened to Native Americans IMHO. If we have issues with that, why do we not have issues with what Israel is doing to Palestinians? ETA: Of ALL people who you'd think would understand a group's plight for their own land and freedom, you'd think it would be the Israeli's, but what do I know??? We can't stay out of it... Almost any action by ISrael will require US resupply and or US cash to pay for it. We don't give Israel a long leash, so if she pursues a sustained bombing campagne.. we will have to resuply them or leave them twisting in the wind. So like all of Israeli actions we are hip deep in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brandymac27 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 We can't stay out of it... Almost any action by ISrael will require US resupply and or US cash to pay for it. We don't give Israel a long leash, so if she pursues a sustained bombing campagne.. we will have to resuply them or leave them twisting in the wind. So like all of Israeli actions we are hip deep in it. But that's my issue with them. Considering the things they're doing to HUMAN BEINGS, as a country, the U.S. shouldn't condone this type of behavior especially financially (especially with OUR history). We need to seriously reconsider our relationship with them as a whole. Sitting back doing nothing, or giving them financial aid isn't acceptable IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 But that's my issue with them. Considering the things they're doing to HUMAN BEINGS, as a country, the U.S. shouldn't condone this type of behavior especially financially (especially with OUR history). We need to seriously reconsider our relationship with them as a whole. Sitting back doing nothing, or giving them financial aid isn't acceptable IMO. Yep if only we sat back and did nothing... no we are 100% behind Israel... even presidents who have dealt effectively with Israel; Carter and Clinton come running when Isreael calls.. When Isreal plays the security card... even the few US politicians who have a backbone, cave in.... It's horrendous but what is the alternative... Try to force Israel to continue to take rockets up the kazoo. Or tell them we won't support them as they act to safeguard their population... Or try to make the case that these rockets are small potato's compared with the Israeli response.. which is true... The case Israel makes though is HAMAS is a terrorist organization attacking Israeli citizens.. and that's also true. It's tactical. The problem is we have no real strategy we are pursuing in the ME which superceeds supporting Israel, especially when Isreal says their sucurity is at stake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brandymac27 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Sorry, but I say we stay out of it. I may take one up the ass for saying this, but the Israeli govt are a bunch of hypocrites. Yes, Hamas is a terrorist organization, but look how many innocent people are being harmed in the process. That's like saying there's gang activity taking place in the U.S. therefore the U.S. govt should blockade goods and services to cities that have major gang related activity regardless if it effects innocent, non gang members including women and children. It's ludicrous. Israel isn't doing this because of Hamas. They're doing it because they're greedy. Let me ask you this: Who was living where in Israel before the establishment of the state in 1948? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Sorry, but I say we stay out of it. I may take one up the ass for saying this, but the Israeli govt are a bunch of hypocrites. Yes, Hamas is a terrorist organization, but look how many innocent people are being harmed in the process. That's like saying there's gang activity taking place in the U.S. therefore the U.S. govt should blockade goods and services to cities that have major gang related activity regardless if it effects innocent, non gang members including women and children. It's ludicrous. Israel isn't doing this because of Hamas. They're doing it because they're greedy. Let me ask you this: Who was living where in Israel before the establishment of the state in 1948? Well the Palestinians aren't Israeli citizens... You can ask yourself why? It's because they aren't Jewish.. Israel is a country established and maintained upon religious grounds and if you allowed all the Palistinians to be citizens then you wouldn't have a problem anymore, because you wouldn't have Israel anymore.. I think staying out of it is better than rubber stamping Isreali's decisions... I just think there is ultimately a constructive role for the US and if we walk away then the regions best chance for peace walks away with us. Low watermark for our involvment really was George Bush who gave Israel a free hand to destroy the peace process.. That was horrible... Obama hasn't rubber stamped ISrael but nor has he made any progress in putting peace forward... Netanyahoo just gives him the finger every chance he gets and Obama and Biden both take it from him.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Well the Palestinians aren't Israeli citizens... You can ask yourself why? It's because they aren't Jewish.. Israel is a country established and maintained upon religious grounds and if you allowed all the Palistinians to be citizens then you wouldn't have a problem anymore, because you wouldn't have Israel anymore.. True. But Israel does have Arab Citizens. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything but feel like it needs said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Netanyahu is stalling. He has been stalling for 15 years, since Clinton first proposed that the borders between Israeli land and Palestinian land be determined by where the respective people currently occupy, regardless of prior borders. Netanyahu knows that there will be some sort of a Palestinian state eventually, so the idea is to kick the Palestinians out of every decent piece of land in the West Bank and build an Israeli settlement on it. This ensures that remaining Palestinian "state" gets nothing but desert, cut into pieces by long walls and totally controlled by Israel checkpoints and travel restrictions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMS Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 True. But Israel does have Arab Citizens. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything but feel like it needs said. Israel has a minority of Arab citizens, even though the majority of the people born in the lands controlled by Israel are Arab. Israel systemically discriminates against Arabs to keep the minority low... both it's citizens and non citizens who have lived all their lives under Israeli occupation. A person who is 10% Jewish from eastern Europe who has no knowledge of any relative ever living in Israel has more rights in Israel than an Arab fellow who has lived their on the same lands for the last 2000 years... and that's all about what name he calls his God. Netanyahu is stalling. He has been stalling for 15 years, since Clinton first proposed that the borders between Israeli land and Palestinian land be determined by where the respective people currently occupy, regardless of prior borders. Netanyahu knows that there will be some sort of a Palestinian state eventually, so the idea is to kick the Palestinians out of every decent piece of land in the West Bank and build an Israeli settlement on it. This ensures that remaining Palestinian "state" gets nothing but desert, cut into pieces by long walls and totally controlled by Israel checkpoints and travel restrictions. The land for peace deal negotiated by Israeli leaders and the PA calls for land for peace based upon the 67 boarders with land exchanges going from there... The official US and PA positions are that we believe peace talks must begin where the previous talks ended... which means the 67 boarders are still what we support... Netanyahu wasn't the PM who agreed to the 67 boarders... he never supported that boundary and still doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Have you guys ever seen those nature videos where a couple of big hornets roll up into a honeybee colony and slaughter the bees by the thousands? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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