Hindsight is 20/20: This Year Was Setup to be a Wash and Shanny deserves year 5

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

A HC well in his way to having the worst record of any Redskins HC after 4 years; 4 years that would, if this season rolls as it presently is doing, have ended in 4 straight double digit loss seasons bar a miracle late run-in last year; deserves NOTHING from the organisation that's HEAVILY compensated him for VERY little in return.

Ask yourself if his name wasn't Shanahan would you be asking for a fifth year with such a shocking win/ loss record to back it up?

Hail.

[Commander PK]

Ask yourself if his name wasn't Shanahan would you be asking for a fifth year with such a shocking win/ loss record to back it up?

Hail.

 

that is a fair question, and I think I would.  I want to see what this man can do without having to have one hand tied behind his back.  A young QB who is able to enjoy a full off-season of learning his trade, no Vinny mop up, no Lockout, and no Salary Cap theft. 

 

The truth of the matter, is that this spring and summer will be the closest this team has come to a clean slate yet under this regime.  For me, if next year we see no improvement after a full off-season for Robert, and upgrades where needed.  YES, he should go.

[GoldSkinner]

that is a fair question, and I think I would.  I want to see what this man can do without having to have one hand tied behind his back.  A young QB who is able to enjoy a full off-season of learning his trade, no Vinny mop up, no Lockout, and no Salary Cap theft. 

 

The truth of the matter, is that this spring and summer will be the closest this team has come to a clean slate yet under this regime.  For me, if next year we see no improvement after a full off-season for Robert, and upgrades where needed.  YES, he should go.

 

Aer you also willing to have Mike clean out almost all our cap money next offseason to improve this team? Because that's essentially what he's going to do. And if he fails, the next head coach would also have one hand "tied behind his back" thanks to Mike's free agency splurging from the prior year.

 

I'd rather have a new HC, new OC, a new DC, and a new personnel department implanted after this season. Outside of a first round pick, they'd have everything available to them to create a team in their vision.

[Commander PK]

Aer you also willing to have Mike clean out almost all our cap money next offseason to improve this team? Because that's essentially what he's going to do. And if he fails, the next head coach would also have one hand "tied behind his back" thanks to Mike's free agency splurging from the prior year.

 

I'd rather have a new HC, new OC, a new DC, and a new personnel department implanted after this season. Outside of a first round pick, they'd have everything available to them to create a team in their vision.

 

You forget Bruce Allen, who is a capologist of the first order.  Mike Shanahan is no dummy.  He's a proven football mind.  I really believe that he knows what are problems are, and will take steps to correct them.  Now that he can.

 

For me, the more I think about it...I guarantee you the rest of the NFC East would absolutely LOVE if Shanahan were to be fired at the end of the season.  I really think the order of the day is patience with him and the overall direction.  Now is not the time to jump ship.  If things are no better next year...it is what it is. 

[GoldSkinner]

You forget Bruce Allen, who is a capologist of the first order.  Mike Shanahan is no dummy.  He's a proven football mind.  I really believe that he knows what are problems are, and will take steps to correct them.  Now that he can.

 

For me, the more I think about it...I guarantee you the rest of the NFC East would absolutely LOVE if Shanahan were to be fired at the end of the season.  I really think the order of the day is patience with him and the overall direction.  Now is not the time to jump ship.  If things are no better next year...it is what it is. 

 

Do you honestly believe that Bruce Allen has the authority to rein in Shanahan's personnel decisions, including player acquisitions?

 

Mark my words, Shanahan will be going for broke in the upcoming offseason.

[clskinsfan]

Not so much "he wanted a 5th year so let's give it to him" more like "Let's have some continuity for our young, talented QB."

 

The same QB who calls him out in his news conferences? Its obvious there is something not right with their relationship. But whatever.

[Commander PK]

Do you honestly believe that Bruce Allen has the authority to rein in Shanahan's personnel decisions, including player acquisitions?

 

Mark my words, Shanahan will be going for broke in the upcoming offseason.

 

I wouldn't use the term rein in..I would say that he would continue to do what he has done.  Masterfully navigate the cap situation since his arrival.  Look at the strings they had to pull to keep the team together, now granted, this year the results have not been there, but everybody was singing their praises before the season about the minor miracle they pulled off in keeping the team intact. (with the exception of Lorenzo)

 

Imagine what they could do with a clean slate.

The same QB who calls him out in his news conferences? Its obvious there is something not right with their relationship. But whatever.

 

Perhaps...but there is a difference between having some philosophical or personality differences (assuming that is what could be here) and wanting the coach fired.  I've seen no indication that is what Robert wants. 

[Skinsinparadise]

I think there is a middle ground on the Shanny is good lets give him time, versus Shanny is horrible point of view.  Granted this thread tried to thread that needle some but favors the pro Shanny side.    I've been a Shanny backer even through the tough times but he's lost me now.   The organization he inherited was clearly a mess.   There are other teams that likewise have been a mess that new coaches have restored pretty quickly some within 1-2 years never mind needing 5. Now some have not.  Shanny in my opinion has moved the organization in a better direction than recent regimes.  In my opinion, though the problem is he hasn't been stellar -- its been a C+, B- job.  It just feels to some much better than that because of what we had previously. 

 

Here's my problem with Shanny, and while I agree with his defenders, he's better than their record indicates.  I do think he is exactly what he critics say about him which is great offensive mind, his defenses are terrible, he's so so at best with personnel, he overestimates the talent on his roster, by his own admission he isn't a motivator type.

 

My summary

 

A. The offense has turned around under him

B.  The defense has gotten much worse under him  

C.  Clearly overestimated the teams talent -- last year he said the defense is top 5 talent wise, this year he said super bowl or bust

D.  Made some good personnel decisions, and plenty of mistakes too.  On balance a little above average but not the brilliant job needed to turn this franchise around as some other franchises have done.

 

Interesting debate

 

A.  Shanny has gotten some potential core franchise super stars in RG3 and Alfred Morris so we can ride those horses hopefully for the next 5-10 years plus 

B.  Outside of RB, Shanny has failed to do with other turnaround franchises have done which is find elite talent in the later rounds -- look at Seattle and San Fran as examples.

C.  We've seen no sign that Shanny isn't the disaster that his critics say he is on defense

D.  He's been just as much a train wreck with clock management and game day decisions as Zorn was  

[Warhead36]

I'm not sure if Shanahan deserves a 5th year, but I do agree with the general premise of the thread in that this year was set up to be a wash. Just too much negative juju going in. I want to see RG3 next year with a normal off-season, let him clear his mind and work.

[Rufus T Firefly]

Bruce Allen handles the cap.  He is noted for his ability to do so, and if still here I have no concerns about the Redskins being reckless.

Yeah, that makes it all better. What's the worst that could happen with Bruce Allen running the cap? We lose $36 mil in cap space?

[Skinsinparadise]

I'm not sure if Shanahan deserves a 5th year, but I do agree with the general premise of the thread in that this year was set up to be a wash. Just too much negative juju going in. I want to see RG3 next year with a normal off-season, let him clear his mind and work.

 

We've been pretty active in FA outside of last year.  The year before when we had the cap hit, we got Garcon, Morgan, M. Williams, Meriweather.  As John Keim likes to say the great teams aren't built via FA and he doesn't think its a legitimate excuse for the team's failures. 

 

We above all franchises should know that going hog wild in FA doesn't usually do the trick.  The Eagles recently found that out.  We have a lot of holes to fill.  This defense is historically bad.  Shanny has been mostly a failure in terms of building a defense both here and Denver.

 

Something tells me that Shanny isn't going to turn this around next year by defying the odds and fixing things via being very aggressive in FA and or the draft without a first rounder. 

[Boss_Hogg]

The same QB who calls him out in his news conferences? Its obvious there is something not right with their relationship. But whatever.

 

No doubt Robert is upset, but I don't think he wants anyone fired.

[SJValleySkinz]

No doubt Robert is upset, but I don't think he wants anyone fired.

 

Very few people would be privy to it if he did, and the members of this message board aren't going to be on that list. Plus he doesn't have to want him to get fired for the continuation of their working together to be a bad idea.

that is a fair question, and I think I would.  I want to see what this man can do without having to have one hand tied behind his back.  A young QB who is able to enjoy a full off-season of learning his trade, no Vinny mop up, no Lockout, and no Salary Cap theft. 

 

The truth of the matter, is that this spring and summer will be the closest this team has come to a clean slate yet under this regime.  For me, if next year we see no improvement after a full off-season for Robert, and upgrades where needed.  YES, he should go.

 

It's called adversity. Stuff happens in the NFL and the coaches worth their salt overcome it and get results. If we want a coach that needs to have better talent than everyone else at 90% of the positions we should get Spurrier or Saban that's their calling card.

[Commander PK]

Yeah, that makes it all better. What's the worst that could happen with Bruce Allen running the cap? We lose $36 mil in cap space?

that's not fair to Bruce. 

 

What else should they have done? 

[Commander PK]

It's called adversity. Stuff happens in the NFL and the coaches worth their salt overcome it and get results. If we want a coach that needs to have better talent than everyone else at 90% of the positions we should get Spurrier or Saban that's their calling card.

 

Adversity?  Show me anytime in NFL history....EVER that somebody had to overcome the kind of adversity that Mike Shanahan was expected to overcome. 

 

If I hired you to rebuild a team, one of the absolute worst run teams in the league.  You are starting fround ground zero.  Despite some history revisionists around here, YES, absolutely, the Redskins were no question one of the worst run franchises in all of sports. 

 

In year two of the "rebuild" you get a lockout where the entire NFL shuts down for several months and nothing gets done.  Then in year 3 after you trade 3 first rounders to get your franchise QB, the NFL tells you a few hours before Free Agency starts that they are taking 36 million dollars in cap space from you, how do you think you would do?  How do you think anybody would do?   

Name me one NFL coach or executive who's name is not Bellichick, who you think could have overcome this penalty, and still have their team in contention for a Lombardi this season. 

[Rufus T Firefly]

that's not fair to Bruce. 

 

What else should they have done? 

They should have taken advantage of the uncapped year and the mandate to rebuild to do just that. Both the necessity and the opportunity for a rebuild that year were overwhelming. They just ignored it.

 

The threat of the cap penalty was just, say, reason #10 why what they did that offseason was so moronic.

[GoldSkinner]

that's not fair to Bruce. 

 

What else should they have done? 

 

Fair has nothing to do with it. This crap happened under their watch. Their actions led the team to this situation. Why haven't other teams - except for Dallas - been made to suffer the same penalty? Because they weren't stupid enough to believe that they caught a free ticket to front-load big contracts or to blitz free agency. Now we're paying for it. Who takes the responsibility, exactly? Are we going to allow this regime to deflect full blame to the NFL? That's what this regime wants because then we wouldn't hold them accountable!!

[Skinsinparadise]

As for Shanny's adversity and granted he's had some, he has been IMO decent but far from great at digging himself out of it.   IMO to dig out of the Cerrato mess, you need an A performance.  If you are at a C plus or B minus level, its going to take a long while.  Again others have turned around franchises much quicker than Shanny.

 

A.  In year #1, instead of going for a rebuild, he thought lets win now.  Traded high picks for McNabb and J. Brown.  Nice pick with Trent, decent with Riley, nothing after that.  Overall, I'd give him a D for that off season.

 

B.  In year #2, he was aggressive enough in FA compared to most teams -- with Chester, Cofield, Bowen, Wilson. I mean do we have to go the Vinny Cerrato route and go hog wild for it being a normal FA year -- this is pretty normal for most teams.  Nice job in the draft in terms of amassing picks but years later  -- Kerrigan is an impact player albeit not elite.  Jenkins and Hankerson and Helu are all right.  But it wasn't a draft to help turn around a franchise.  I'd give him a B -.

 

C.     Year 3 -- year #1 of the salary cap penalty -- they actually did have cap room to have a normal FA by most teams standards, 2 starting WRs -- Morgan, Garcon and 2 starting safeties -- M. Williams and Meriweather.   They traded the world to get RG3, and am all in.  Cousins is a nice backup.  Alfred Morris great RB.  He made mistakes and was far from perfect, but I'll give him an A for likely finding a franchise QB. 

 

D.  Year 4 -- this is the one year where we didn't have cap room -- ditto by the way for most teams, it was fairly quiet year for most in FA.  The problem we got though is outside of RB, Shanny doesn't really find many diamonds in the rough.  Most of our 5th-7th rounders don't make much of an impact.  For example, we drafted if I recall 6-7 O lineman in lower rounds, none of them apparently are starter worthy.  Some of the better FO do hit on some of these lower picks with more frequency. Though, looks like we might have hitten gold with 3rd rounder, Jordan Reed.. 

 

Shanny hasn't done a bad job with personnel but IMO he's been far from great.    We've upgraded from arguably having one of the worst FO in the league to IMO being middle of the pack.  Not sure there is anything that Shanny has shown here or in Denver that makes me think he will rise much above middle of the pack status.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

In year two of the "rebuild" you get a lockout where the entire NFL shuts down for several months and nothing gets done.  Then in year 3 after you trade 3 first rounders to get your franchise QB, the NFL tells you a few hours before Free Agency starts that they are taking 36 million dollars in cap space from you, how do you think you would do?  How do you think anybody would do?   

Name me one NFL coach or executive who's name is not Bellichick, who you think could have overcome this penalty, and still have their team in contention for a Lombardi this season. 

 

Draft better players? Lots of teams did that during those down years. Don't trade draft picks for aging talent, aka more of what Vinny did? Lots of teams didn't blow picks on over the hill players. Maybe draft Geno Atkins, Walter Thurmond, Kam Chancellor, Riley Cooper,  or Dennis Pitta over Perry Riley? Dennis Morris washed out of the NFL immediately, he barely made the PS, while most of the 2010 6th round is still in the league. Antonio Brown? Greg Hardy? Trindon Holliday?

 

And that's just 2010.

[Commander PK]

Fair has nothing to do with it. This crap happened under their watch. Their actions led the team to this situation. Why haven't other teams - except for Dallas - been made to suffer the same penalty? Because they weren't stupid enough to believe that they caught a free ticket to front-load big contracts or to blitz free agency. Now we're paying for it. Who takes the responsibility, exactly? Are we going to allow this regime to deflect full blame to the NFL? That's what this regime wants because then we wouldn't hold them accountable!!

 

actually, Vinny's actions led to this cap penalty.  He signed him to the damn contract, that they had to get us out from under any way they could.  What they did should have worked, because there were no grounds to stop it from working.  The NFL was allowed to get away with collusion.

 

and other teams weren't made to suffer the same penalty because they don't play in the NFC East.  I don't have time to rehash it all, but it's been well documented that the Redskins and Cowboys were NOT the only ones who did this, but they were the only ones penalized.

[Rufus T Firefly]

actually, Vinny's actions led to this cap penalty.  He signed him to the damn contract, that they had to get us out from under any way they could.  What they did should have worked, because there were no grounds to stop it from working.  The NFL was allowed to get away with collusion.

 

and other teams weren't made to suffer the same penalty because they don't play in the NFC East.  I don't have time to rehash it all, but it's been well documented that the Redskins and Cowboys were NOT the only ones who did this, but they were the only ones penalized.

And, one more time, what he had was the uncapped year to get out of those contracts. He could have rid us of all the terrible cap hits and in fact turned those contracts into badly needed draft picks. He didn't. You know why? Because he arrogantly thought he could turn that disaster of a team into a contender in one year, a year with no available FAs to be signed and all while adding the massive chore of remaking the defense from a 4-3 into a 3-4.

 

For someone who thinks the team was such a disaster that we have no right to expect it to be turned around in 4 years, you seem remarkably forgiving of a regime that thought they could do it in 1.

[Bigmuss1]

One question. How long is Shanahan gonna live off of SB's he won about 15 years ago?

The same way you do as a Redskin fan

[Laron Burgundy]

You believe by having 2 more good players could have save this team? Sure, it could help the offensive line, but what about our defense?..even special teams? We have too many problems and having the cap money back couldn't save this team. I strongly believe we have average talent on defense which is being out coached. We have #1 draft picks on this team that has made no impacts this season.

With this coaching staff, I don't think it matters how talented our team is. Not to mention, Shanahan said we had a super bowl caliber team during pre season.

Give me brandon marshall and a competent right tackle and yes, I think they would have made a difference. We've lost 4 games by just one score each. Our defense could be just as bad but if our offense got points on just two drives this season then we're probably 5-6 and nobody is flipping **** about it.

It really doesn't take much to make a huge impact on games. One more wr and suddenly we go on slightly longer drives on average, have better field position for more points and fewer points against and keeping opposing offenses off the field for longer and allowing our offense to run more often due to not playing behind as much.

Like I've said, if you want to see the impact of losing one player, check out indy o without Wayne, denver d without von miller or 49ers d last year without justin smith. Those units all looked vastly worse. It's not about what one player brings, it's the compounding improvement he brings to everyone else by his presence.

[hail2skins]

A HC well in his way to having the worst record of any Redskins HC after 4 years; 4 years that would, if this season rolls as it presently is doing, have ended in 4 straight double digit loss seasons bar a miracle late run-in last year; deserves NOTHING from the organisation that's HEAVILY compensated him for VERY little in return.

Ask yourself if his name wasn't Shanahan would you be asking for a fifth year with such a shocking win/ loss record to back it up?

Hail.

I think his name being Shanahan is a double-edged sword.  Some people want him to stay because he has the historical winning record (even post-Elway in Denver), but others also look at the results here so far and are extremely disappointed on how someone who had such a winning record could be failing so miserably here.  The hope should be that the next relative unknown coach that Snyder hires should be given the same amount of time here as Shanny has so far......that's when we'll know that Dan is truly patient.

 

The salary cap hits have been an impact to be sure, but where Shanny lost me were those first two years.  Granted, he inherited a bad team, but then proceeded to pretty much waste our time with McNabb, Grossman, and Beck......and 11 wins over those two seasons. Sorry, but I think we could've expected more than that. And this season seems to be a continuation of those two seasons. As Steve Czaban said a few weeks ago, "Is this a guy you can count on to win games for you on Sunday?"  Judging from his time here so far, the answer appears to be no.

[mike42]

Give me brandon marshall and a competent right tackle and yes, I think they would have made a difference. We've lost 4 games by just one score each. Our defense could be just as bad but if our offense got points on just two drives this season then we're probably 5-6 and nobody is flipping **** about it.

It really doesn't take much to make a huge impact on games. One more wr and suddenly we go on slightly longer drives on average, have better field position for more points and fewer points against and keeping opposing offenses off the field for longer and allowing our offense to run more often due to not playing behind as much.

Like I've said, if you want to see the impact of losing one player, check out indy o without Wayne, denver d without von miller or 49ers d last year without justin smith. Those units all looked vastly worse.

We are also couple points from being 0-11.  I see your good point and if we had normal coaching staff, then you would be correct. Put Garcon with the bears and he would have numbers close to Marshalls. And Yes, I believe Garcon is that good. Marshall as a redskin, his stats wouldn't look as good.

 

I honestly don't believe the extra 18 million would make a difference with this coach. Last year we were without our star player Orakapo. With him being back this year, our defense is worse. We have a lot of names on defense and are looking like a expansion team.