Hindsight is 20/20: This Year Was Setup to be a Wash and Shanny deserves year 5

[Commander PK]

Ummmm. Yes he is. HE broke the rules and we paid the price for it for 2 seasons.

 

The NFL said he and the Redskins broke no rules.  I would find you a link, but it's not really necessary.  This has been common knowledge since the beginning of this whole thing.

 

There was no cap, and the NFL said we broke no rules.  They signed off on the contracts they later penalized us for.

 

No offense, but do some research.

[Boss_Hogg]

The "He said it would take 5 years" argument is the dumbest argument I've heard. What are you gonna say when an owner tells you "I'll guarantee 7 million a year, how long do you need " ? You're gonna get as many years as you can for guaranteed money.What coach wouldn't want job security regardless of performance?

 

I'm pretty sure Mike said it would take five years after he inked the contract. Still, that's a good point though, would Snyder think twice about the hire if Mike said that before the hiring?

 

I'm willing to give this staff one more chance. Let them have one more year with a full cap and a full offseason with Robert. Sign some better talent up front and at the WR position. Everyone hates RGIII now, so we won't have to worry about the Subway or GQ photo shoots.

 

This team is a dumpster fire right now, who in the hell would want to come here? Say the Skins do fire the coaching staff, we could have another coaching search fail like in 2008 where no one wanted the job.

[Commander PK]

I found it pretty enlightening to read the first several pages of the "Why John Mara cheated" thread to see how some people have changed their tune somewhat about the cap penalty, obviously because the team is struggling right now.

 

Yes, it's frustrating.  Looking back over that whole thing, are we really surpised at this point?  That 7 game win streak last year changed everything, and also created some pretty lofty (unrealistic?) expectations.  The biggest problem with the Redskins for me right now...they did not evolve at all from last year.  How could they though?  Between the cap penalty and Robert's injury, which had a major impact on everything else. 

 

They are exactly the same team from one year ago, minus Lorenzo.  I'm starting to realize that is exactly the problem.  They were not able to do anything to augment what they already had.  They did not evolve. 

[justice98]

I don't buy it.  I really don't.

 

Yes, the cap bs is real and hurt, but continuity on defense should have meant we stayed the same, declined slightly or improved slightly.  We brought back the same D, plus got Orakpo and Merriweather back.  Our D has fallen off the map and has shown no ability to adapt or improve.  I've never seen special teams as bad as ours at the pro level and I don't think I'm exagerating.

 

The average length of an NFL player's career is four years.  Don't tell me it takes five to turn it around.  But even if you want to pretend it does, by year four you should see lots of sprouts and buds.  What positive signs do we see out there?  Where is the evidence that this team is ready to become suddenly good.

 

They are getting worse and significantly worse.

 

I agree on both counts, getting Orakpo and Merriweather back on defense, a couple of guys with Pro Bowl potential at least, was supposed to upgrades and be equivalent to signing two free agents.  

 

And the Crawford injury was big, bigger than it should've been, but that doesn't explain the complete meltdown of the rest of the special teams.  

[Boss_Hogg]

Ummmm. Yes he is. HE broke the rules and we paid the price for it for 2 seasons.

 

What's so damning about the cap penalty is that NFL approved of all the roster moves the Skins made after 2010. There was no salary cap therefore no rules.

[SJValleySkinz]

Since I'm about to defend the Shannaplan let me start with saying that I don't think he's perfect.  I do not think he is elite and I thought he was oversold when he got here.  However, as Mike himself pointed out we need to put everything into perspective.  I get that he's 25-40 since showing up but he also said that he needed 5 years to clean up the mess and we owe it to him to see this thing through.

 

Let's start by saying some simple facts:

 

1. Anyone who expected us to beat San Fran in the pre-season is a massive homer who had no sense of reality.
2. The turnaround we expected Shanahan to do was a far bigger project then any other turnaround anyone else was expected to orchestrate.
3. 3-8 at this point is underachieving, but the best we should have been right now is 5-5.

 

The last point is really what I'm driving at when I say Shanny should be given his fifth year.  One very astute caller before the game said "In the NFL you're either getting better or you're getting worse. You're never the same."  This guy was spot on.  Yes there are exceptions to this rule but you either get worse or you get better in the NFL.  Largely this team, statistically looks a lot like last years with the big difference in terms of turnovers.  Coaches, all of whom are really smart, discovered that RG3 isn't a very good passer (which I was saying since we started talking about him) and that if you put him in uncomfortable positions, he will turn the ball over and thus we're 3-8 and don't look very good at all.  But rather then exploding and freaking out about this, let's have a real conversation and look at what led us to this point.

 

We know these things about the offseason:

 

1. It resulted in us being worse.
2. We didn't have a huge turnover of players.
3. The guys we did bring in weren't expected to be clear upgrades.
4. RG3 didn't have a chance to get better because he had to spend an offseason becoming himself again.  He has never had a full NFL offseason. 

So we didn't get better and thus, because this is pro-sports, we got worse.  But that's not enough to save Shanny since he's in charge of player personnel.  So why did he not upgrade us this offseason?

 

Let's start with cap-gate.  The Redskins had no money this off-season.  We were very fortunate to be able to keep the 2012 squad mostly intact going into this year with lots of guys taking huge pay cuts.  Now, we can't blame cap-gate for everything and certainly we've had some bad experiences with FAs.  But it's tough to get better when you can't bring in proven, good players like Pierre Garcon or London Fletcher.  Fear not though!  In case you haven't heard, we have a lot of money going into next year and if the Shannallen's have shown us anything they will spend it wisely and bring in players that will make us better.

 

We also didn't have a first year pick because of, what I think we've mostly concluded was a positive trade.  Yes, we were able to bring in some guys who could replace some of the old PoS guys but even they are marginally better.  Anyone who expected David Amerson and Baccari Rambo to be Darrel Green and Sean Taylor needs to put down the crack pipe.  I mean, these guys are rookies who were not highly touted coming out of college.  None of them were going to come in and immediately make us better.  Just marginally worse at these positions which I would argue they have to some extent.

 

So we didn't get better, but how could we?  By now you're likely thinking "So we should be worse but even how could a 10-6 division winning team drop to this low?  I get that opposing coaches would figure us out somewhat but they shouldn't have that much.  Surely that means we have to fire to coach!"  Wrong.

 

For the most part this team looks very similar to last years squad in terms of meaningful players but talent level actually got worse because of two of the most important positions: MLB and QB.  

 

Before I get to those, let me address Brian Orakpo who came back this year.  He isn't that great.  He's good and certainly the pass rush isn't the problem but we've oversold how good he is.  

 

Alfred Morris did get better, IMO, and we got Roy Helu back but a couple of great/better tailbacks just are not enough to upgrade any offense immensely.  You have to be able to throw it well in the NFL today and that's where we needed to upgrade.

 

We've noticed London Fletcher's regression for a while now but this year the wheels truly have fallen off.  He's been a non-factor all year and the tackling has gone down because of it.  The defense used to at least play with fire and energy even if they sucked but that is no longer the case and we have to attribute that to London's downfall.  Dude's a HoFer no doubt but his time has come.  I have no idea how we're going to replace him but his downfall has had a huge part in this team's lackluster performance.

 

So far as RG3 is concerned, he spent a full offseason becoming himself again.  He didn't have a chance to get better and fix those passing mechanics we knew he had to fix.  He has never had that all-important first NFL offseason.  This year he gets it (knock on wood) and we'll get to see him get better.  The biggest leaps in progression happen in the first few years so we couldn't expect those around him to get much better with the exception of Morris.  Most QBs have a sophomore slump but it's fair to say Robert's was heightened because he spent more time rehabing then most rookie QBs.

 

Al Galdi said after the game last night that if last night is the course this team takes for the rest of the season you have to consider firing this staff.  I agree with that.  But right now, there are five games left and this outcome should have been expected as this team had plenty of question marks coming in.  Galdi also said we should keep Shanahan for one more year and that's something we all should agree with.

 

Some drunk guy was yelling in the bathroom last night that this fan base has way to much negativity.  Mike is not Jim Zorn or Steve Spurrier.  Let's not call him that until we see the swinging gate make a return, shall we?  Dude has won two SBs so lets give him the fifth year he said he needed.

 

We should expect some major shakeups after this year but these problems are not as deep rooted as I think we believe they are.

 

In Shanny I trust.... for now.

 

Hail to the Redskins.

 

Close thread.

 

Why is that not one Shannahan apologist can address the fact that the team looks listless and defeated on a weekly basis? What in heaven's name does that have to do with RG3, the salary cap, draft picks, or anything else other than the coach isn't getting the team fired up. There are far less talented teams in the NFL that I see show up every week and play hard. You guys are pretty creative at throwing up excuses but nobody can tell me why this team plays with no discipline or focus. I'd love to hear the excuse though maybe it's George Preston Marshall or Pete Rozell's fault because every single possible excuse this coaching staff could be given seems to have been exhausted.

[justice98]

I found it pretty enlightening to read the first several pages of the "Why John Mara cheated" thread to see how some people have changed their tune somewhat about the cap penalty, obviously because the team is struggling right now.

 

Yes, it's frustrating.  Looking back over that whole thing, are we really surpised at this point?  That 7 game win streak last year changed everything, and also created some pretty lofty (unrealistic?) expectations.  The biggest problem with the Redskins for me right now...they did not evolve at all from last year.  How could they though?  Between the cap penalty and Robert's injury, which had a major impact on everything else. 

 

They are exactly the same team from one year ago, minus Lorenzo.  I'm starting to realize that is exactly the problem.  They were not able to do anything to augment what they already had.  They did not evolve. 

 

it should be noted though, they've arguably been the healthiest team in the league.  So theoretically, the injuries to other teams should've leveled the playing field.  We avoided Cutler, Reggie Bush due to injury, got Matt Flynn, etc.  

 

Then we get back Orakpo, Merriweather, Helu, have a full season of a healthy Garcon, added Reed and Amerson.  Even re-signing D'Angelo Hall and having him raise his level of play this year to arguably a Pro Bowl level is equivalent to upgrading at the CB position.  When you look at it like that, they actually did come into this season stronger than they ended last season, on paper.  Guys just didn't maintain their level of play, be it Fletcher, the OL, Morgan, Moss, Kerrigan, et al.

[skins214428hail]

I enjoy all of your misery . 

 

no really I enjoy football and yo can learn a lot by reading other teams Forums . Im also in the Giants and Cowgirls

You'll find no shelter here 

[justice98]

I'm pretty sure Mike said it would take five years after he inked the contract. Still, that's a good point though, would Snyder think twice about the hire if Mike said that before the hiring?

 

I'm willing to give this staff one more chance. Let them have one more year with a full cap and a full offseason with Robert. Sign some better talent up front and at the WR position. Everyone hates RGIII now, so we won't have to worry about the Subway or GQ photo shoots.

 

This team is a dumpster fire right now, who in the hell would want to come here? Say the Skins do fire the coaching staff, we could have another coaching search fail like in 2008 where no one wanted the job.

 

Why would Shanahan's timetable to rebuild the franchise come up AFTER he signed the contract?  I would think in the discussion about the gig and then the contract negotiating session that kind of critical detail would've come up.  

 

Although, it wouldn't be the first time Snyder's thrown money at somebody without thinking it through.  

 

Nevermind, I think I may have answered my own question.  lol

[clskinsfan]

The NFL said he and the Redskins broke no rules.  I would find you a link, but it's not really necessary.  This has been common knowledge since the beginning of this whole thing.

 

There was no cap, and the NFL said we broke no rules.  They signed off on the contracts they later penalized us for.

 

No offense, but do some research.

 

The NFL or anyone else can say what ever the hell they want. The bottom line is HE was warned not to do it and did it anyways. And we were penalized because of his arrogance.  As far as do some research. I dont come here unprepared. read the rest of my original post and find fault with any of it. Go pound sand.

[justice98]

If after all this talk about not having an offseason to develop and still dealing with the knee, if RG3 dispenses with both of those excuses (albeit legitimate excuses) and stumbles outta the gate again next year, all hell's gonna break loose.  

[GoldSkinner]

The NFL said he and the Redskins broke no rules.  I would find you a link, but it's not really necessary.  This has been common knowledge since the beginning of this whole thing.

 

There was no cap, and the NFL said we broke no rules.  They signed off on the contracts they later penalized us for.

 

No offense, but do some research.

 

The Redskins didn't break any rules but, unlike most of the NFL teams that year, the front office was stupid enough to think it could take advantage of the "capless" year without suffering any consequences. Most of the other ball clubs were smart enough to know that there's always a catch to something too good to be true, and so they refrained from any free-agent blitzing or front-loading big contracts. Our regime, along with the Dallas Cowboys to some extent, was dumb enough to believe that it wouldn't get into trouble for monkeying around in class because the teacher wasn't in the classroom.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Shanahan career through first 11 games:

 

2010: 5-6

2011: 4-7

2012: 5-6

2013: 3-8

 

You know, seeing the 2010 season mentioned reminded me how "close" we seemed that season. We were 5-5 and still in playoff contention. The next 3 games were: vs. Minnesota, at New York, and vs. Tampa Bay. So, even assuming a loss to a still solid Giants team, we should have been 7-6 (and, quite honestly, we lost both of those home games very narrowly).  

 

My point more than anything else is that 2010 might have been Shanahan's most consistent season, we treaded water through the first 10 games. We did lost 5 of our last 6 games but 4 of those losses were by the narrowest of margins (4, 1, 3, and 3 points). As much as I have liked his personnel decisions, you could make the argument that he was most consistent with a team he inherited rather than a team he built.

 

On offense, both Moss and Cooley were the main targets. Both QBs and our leading rusher were Shanahan additions, but no one really stood out there anyway. On defense, everyone of impact was a holdover from the previous regime (Fletcher, McIntosh, Hall, Rogers, Landry, etc.).

 

It just makes me wonder how Shanahan might have done with less responsibility. If he could focus on coaching while someone else was acquiring the talent, maybe we'd be much better off.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

In 2010 Mike said it would take 5 years to turn this program around.

 

Except that is stupid. We aren't Southern Mississippi. We are an NFL franchise - a wildly profitable one at that.

[Commander PK]

The NFL or anyone else can say what ever the hell they want. The bottom line is HE was warned not to do it and did it anyways. And we were penalized because of his arrogance.  As far as do some research. I dont come here unprepared. read the rest of my original post and find fault with any of it. Go pound sand.

 

Oh, I see.  You solved the riddle.  We were penalized because of Shanahan's arrogance.

 

It's easy to say that now with the team at 3-8.

 

The bottom line, how can there be a penalty without a ****ing rule in place?  Who's arrogance are we talking about here?  Shanahan's or the owners for commiting a crime and getting away with it because of the incompetence of the player's union?  Hey, we will commit collusion for all to see, and then we will gloat about getting away with it on National Television. 

 

Yeah, Shanahan is the arrogant one.

[mike42]

So the cap penalty has no effect?  18 mil is two very good players worth of contracts at the very least.  Look how bad indy looks when they've lost ONE good player in Wayne.  We've basically been down two for the past two years.  Could it be that Shanny actually outcoached other teams who should have been better equipped last year and this year we're only underperforming a little compared to our talent level?

 

And if you think RG3 is back to his old self, I really suggest you look back at the games last year.  Part of the reason our offensive line looked better was because RG3 was quicker and more agile.  Defensive lines couldn't rush up field because RG3 would blow right by them.  That isn't the case right now.  He has some of his speed back, but he's not his old self by any stretch.  Add into that the lack of practice during the off-season, and yes, the rg3 injury has clearly hampered our qb's development and thus the team's success this year.

 

You can't just ignore valid reasons just because you're mad at Shanahan for losing.

You believe by having 2 more good players could have save this team? Sure, it could help the offensive line, but what about our defense?..even special teams? We have too many problems and having the cap money back couldn't save this team. I strongly believe we have average talent on defense which is being out coached. We have #1 draft picks on this team that has made no impacts  this season.

 

With this coaching staff, I don't think it matters how talented our team is. Not to mention, Shanahan said we had a super bowl caliber team during pre season.

[Commander PK]

The Redskins didn't break any rules but, unlike most of the NFL teams that year, the front office was stupid enough to think it could take advantage of the "capless" year without suffering any consequences. Most of the other ball clubs were smart enough to know that there's always a catch to something too good to be true, and so they refrained from any free-agent blitzing or front-loading big contracts. Our regime, along with the Dallas Cowboys to some extent, was dumb enough to believe that it wouldn't get into trouble for monkeying around in class because the teacher wasn't in the classroom.

 

I see, so the NFL can do whatever it wants Federal Trade Law be damned huh?  The NFL said there would be "consequences"

 

What gives the NFL the right to levy consequences against a private business owner, who was not bound by any rules that said he couldn't pay his employees whatever the hell he wanted?

[Chachie]

I don't wanna hear Shanahan mention the cap penalty once things go south, like he did a couple weeks ago.  I don't recall him mentioning that one time when things were flying high or there was reason for optimism going into this season.  All the sudden, once the wins stop, he conveniently pulls that out of his back pocket.  It's tantamount to him admitting last season was a fluke cuz it's basically the same team, and it's been remarkably healthy.   

 

 

 

 

 

A healthy Griffin masked our o-line problems last season. There was no reason to complain. 

 

Combine his limited legwork this year (including stance and using that leg to throw the ball in a pinch) with no money to sign more linemen and you've got a transparently bad offense. 

 

No matter how Shanny chose to handle the salary cap penalty with the media, it is definitely having it's effect this year. 

 

And then there's our secondary and how the cap penalty has affected that.  

[Commander PK]

it's not like the NFL was standing on solid ground.  They knew they weren't, and that is why they stopped talking about it.  None of this bull **** stands up to scrutiny.  None of it, and the closer you look, the more likely you are going to run into all kinds of shady **** they do that they get away with.

[WSHRedskins3ATLBraves3]

In 2010 Mike said it would take 5 years to turn this program around. Let's take him for his word and play out year five. If the team sucks ass again then thank him for the 2012 NFC East title and move on.

Mike won't be able to use the salary cap crutch next year.

Edit: How ironic that an eagles fan with an empty trophy case talks about our misery.

Clown

 

So you're willing to give him an extra year just because he said he wanted it? What happens when he spends our cap money this offseason and our team continues to regress?

 

Then we are really screwed.

[Commander PK]

So you're willing to give him an extra year just because he said he wanted it? What happens when he spends our cap money this offseason and our team continues to regress?

 

Then we are really screwed.

Bruce Allen handles the cap.  He is noted for his ability to do so, and if still here I have no concerns about the Redskins being reckless.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

I'm actually about 80% sure that he's about done here.

Even the beat guys are saying interesting things. One said something like, "there's two things that Dan Snyder hates: losing on prime time and fans leaving early...."

They usually don't speak about stuff like that

[Boss_Hogg]

So you're willing to give him an extra year just because he said he wanted it? What happens when he spends our cap money this offseason and our team continues to regress?

 

Then we are really screwed.

 

Not so much "he wanted a 5th year so let's give it to him" more like "Let's have some continuity for our young, talented QB."

[Commander PK]

Not so much "he wanted a 5th year so let's give it to him" more like "Let's have some continuity for our young, talented QB."

 

Something Redskins fans should know a lot about.  Patrick Ramsey and Jason Campbell ring bells? 

[Boss_Hogg]

So you're willing to give him an extra year just because he said he wanted it? What happens when he spends our cap money this offseason and our team continues to regress?

 

Then we are really screwed.

 

Now if the Skins had no building blocks (like in 2009) then I would fire Mike after 2013.