BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 Can't wait. Can't wait. Can't wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbs Hog Heaven Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 This team needs to focus building from the inside out. OL, DL, ILB and Safety. 1) Paul Solial NT 2) Alex Mack C 3) TJ Ward Safety 4) Michael Oher OT 5) Brent Grimes CB I don't see much available in terms of ILB and DE in free agency. I think ILB should be a focus of the draft. Time for LeRibeus to play and see what he can do at OG. We should of gotten Oher, or even Mack for that matter, in '09. Instead, we went against a major position of need and drafted Orakpo. Those boats have sailed for us now sadly. Hail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC9 Posted November 18, 2013 Author Share Posted November 18, 2013 I would let Orakpo go and re-sign Jackson. More cost effective, and brings a different skill set, while I think B Jenkins has a chance to develop as a pass rusher. Other re-signs: Hall, Riley, Baker, Doughty, Tapp, either Wilson or Biggers, maybe Grossman (if we deal Cousins), Kehl. Rocca should be cut immediately after the season. I think I'm with you 100% here. On the lines, I would drop Bowen, Carriker, Montgomery (might be able to get a mid-rounder for him) and one of the Gs. The cap savings (more in year 2 than year 1, so you structure contracts that way) to bring in a NT (my choice would probably be BJ Raji if available) and two new OL (Alex Mack if he's on the market, maybe Jared Veldheer at RT) while not cutting too much into our starting cap space. So that would leave some money for a WR, ILB and S. At the moment, I'm thinking Eric Decker, Pat Angerer and I might go with something like Malcolm Jenkins and Ryan Mundy instead of Byrd. Just some thoughts. Have to see how the market plays out, of course. Agreed on Bowen, too. He's been strong since he's been here, but he and Carriker need to go due to money. I'd cut Chester because of age, Lich can always gain weight and play center but we are really up against it money wise with him. I don't think Mack makes it out, but Veldheer would be a good one for me. I like Decker and Angerer as well. Both are very solid players and both play hard. Angerer is an excellent tackler, too. I'd be surprised if Angerer makes it out, though. We should of gotten Oher, or even Mack for that matter, in '09. Instead, we went against a major position of need and drafted Orakpo. Those boats have sailed for us now sadly. Hail. We had a chance at Mack/Oher and Duke Robinson... I was heart broken. Even though Robinson didn't pan out like I thought he would... lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbs Hog Heaven Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 We had a chance at Mack/Oher and Duke Robinson... I was heart broken. Even though Robinson didn't pan out like I thought he would... lol Being a Sooner, Big Duke will always have a special place in my heart. Those were special times with him and Trent protecting Bradford. Hail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martytheman Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 Shanahan has shown he can draft well after the 2nd round? This is news to me. Other than his obligatory RB miracle in the 6th, Reed and maybe Cousins, what exactly are you referring to? We have four years worth of drafts to look back on--you're impressed? Yes. He has done a good job drafting in the later rounds, about as well as can be expected anyway. He also got a couple of mid round duds in Lerib and Jenkins. Riley, bonehead PF factory that he may be is a starter, 4th round AlMo - 6th round Reed 3 (one of the better looking rookie TE's in the entire NFL) Hankerson 3 Helu 4 Royster 6 (who was productive when he started) Mo Hurt 7 (injured, but played well in relief) Neild 7 (played well pre-injury) Cousins 4 Crawford 7 (one of the better punt returners we've had in recent years, also played well at DB down the stretch last year) Bernstein (who looked good prior to injury) Rambo 6 (has looked meh this season, but better now than the first few weeks) Not bad for a bunch of round 4-7 guys to make the team and play well, considering that in years past (the vinny years) anyone drafted outside round 1 was most likely a reach or a bust.. assuming we even HAD any picks in round 2 or later, since vinny liked to hand them out like halloween candy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus T Firefly Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 Agreed on Bowen, too. He's been strong since he's been here, but he and Carriker need to go due to money. I'd cut Chester because of age, Lich can always gain weight and play center but we are really up against it money wise with him. I don't think Mack makes it out, but Veldheer would be a good one for me. I like Decker and Angerer as well. Both are very solid players and both play hard. Angerer is an excellent tackler, too. I'd be surprised if Angerer makes it out, though. I think you're a little too skeptical on who will make it to FA. A lot of good players make it there. On Mack I agree, it's a bit of a longshot, (though you never know). It's tough because there isn't a lot more available for interior OL. Details are a little hard to find, but Lichtensteiger's contract appears to have only come with 2.75 mil guaranteed. But I agreed he is a possibility to move to C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinny21 Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 Great post. Defense - I really like Will Compton and think he could make the 53 next year. He showed very well in the pre-season when he had chances. I wouldn't be comfortable with him starting. I think Minnifield tops out as a good nickel or dime. I don't know why Barnett hasn't had much more of an impact. But we really need fat kids and we need them badly. Offense - I think (depending on the scheme) Compton can play guard today. I also think Gettis can play and so can Hurt (the interior) but I would hope that we can find a way to get someone in there with some moxy and experience. I'm not sure who it'd be. I like Hankerson but I really think we are seeing what he is right now and that's a decent possession WR. I've almost lost all hope with Ribs. He isn't even showing up in shape. Thanks, and thanks for starting the thread. I'm like you, love talking team personnel. Was looking into Compton's past and was really surprised he ran a 4.54 at his pro day. Qb'd the defense in college and reapplied himself to watching film. Not a starter, but he'd make a viable backup to Riley. Robinson is the guy I'f really love to see get healthy and step up. We need that coverage ability in a big way. Would love to see WR addressed, but I'd put more emphasis on the 'fat boys' like you said. Hope Williams (or whoever) takes LeRibeus and tells him this is his job - it might suck to work so hard, but it'll be we'll worth it if he can take a starting job. We could use a big guy like that for the passing game. I'm still holding out hope for A. Robinson - we need that kind of speed on the field to make this O more dynamic. Hope he spends all offseason on route running. Really, really hope Crawford can get healthy - loved him as a dime back and I think he can man the slot as well. I'd be pretty comfortable with Crawford, Hall, Amerson, Minnifield and Biggers. Talib would be wonderful, but I'm way more concerned with the trenches - interior push on D and a clean pocket for Griffin would be a huge step for this team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 Yes. He has done a good job drafting in the later rounds, about as well as can be expected anyway. He also got a couple of mid round duds in Lerib and Jenkins. Riley, bonehead PF factory that he may be is a starter, 4th round AlMo - 6th round Hankerson 3 Helu 4 Royster 6 (who was productive when he started) Mo Hurt 7 (injured, but played well in relief) Neild 7 (played well pre-injury) Cousins 4 Crawford 7 (one of the better punt returners we've had in recent years, also played well at DB down the stretch last year) Bernstein (who looked good prior to injury) Rambo 6 (has looked meh this season, but better now than the first few weeks) Not bad for a bunch of round 4-7 guys to make the team and play well, considering that in years past (the vinny years) anyone drafted outside round 1 was most likely a reach or a bust.. assuming we even HAD any picks in round 2 or later, since vinny liked to hand them out like halloween candy. Why don't you read that list of positively mediocre depth players you posted again. Because you aren't making the point you think you're making. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheGoodBits Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 Why don't you read that list of positively mediocre depth players you posted again. Because you aren't making the point you think you're making. Notably the round 3-4 guys who are mediocre or backups now. Rounds 3-4 are money rounds, lot of good players there. Did a good job with Amerson and Reed this year though, I think 2013's draft was one of Shanahan's better ones since he's been here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbs Hog Heaven Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 Why don't you read that list of positively mediocre depth players you posted again. Because you aren't making the point you think you're making. A classic case of ESOveratingourownItis. Happens to many from time to time but the more the games roll, the more it passes with time. Thankfully not terminal in all but the most homorific of cases. Hail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martytheman Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 Why don't you read that list of positively mediocre depth players you posted again. Because you aren't making the point you think you're making. well what do you expect from rounds 3 to 7?? all pro's with every pick? anyone drafted in round 4 through 7 especially who make a team and can contribute are wins in my book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus T Firefly Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 Why don't you read that list of positively mediocre depth players you posted again. Because you aren't making the point you think you're making. Morris is a star, Reed is on his way. Riley's a good starter, Hankerson is at least solid, Helu is a good role player. There's a bunch of other good depth. That's actually pretty good for those rounds of the draft. Shanahan has screwed up a lot and I want him gone. But drafting hasn't been the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC9 Posted November 18, 2013 Author Share Posted November 18, 2013 Really, really hope Crawford can get healthy - loved him as a dime back and I think he can man the slot as well. I'd be pretty comfortable with Crawford, Hall, Amerson, Minnifield and Biggers. Talib would be wonderful, but I'm way more concerned with the trenches - interior push on D and a clean pocket for Griffin would be a huge step for this team. Last I heard from Crawford he was doing an interview on 106.7 the fan a few weekends ago and he is well ahead of schedule in his recovery. Morris is a star, Reed is on his way. Riley's a good starter, Hankerson is at least solid, Helu is a good role player. There's a bunch of other good depth. That's actually pretty good for those rounds of the draft. Shanahan has screwed up a lot and I want him gone. But drafting hasn't been the problem. Agreed again. I'm fine with most of the draft picks. It's putting the players in position to win (ie: coaching) that he and staff have failed at. We're close to the Chiefs of last year. Not saying we would be undefeated right now or will be this time next year, but this staff has been a major dissappointment. I think you're a little too skeptical on who will make it to FA. A lot of good players make it there. On Mack I agree, it's a bit of a longshot, (though you never know). It's tough because there isn't a lot more available for interior OL. They do but it's rare that it's an offensive linemen. Angerer is more realistic. I would love to grab him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus T Firefly Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 They do but it's rare that it's an offensive linemen. Angerer is more realistic. I would love to grab him. G is usually a strong position in FA, but not this year. LT is the spot that is rare to see big FAs. I want a stud T who can make RT a strength and move to LT if Trent gets hurt. Obviously an elite LT is too expensive. This year, though, there are a lot of guys who fit the description- Veldheer, Eugenee Monroe, Brandon Albert, Oher, Roger Saffold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbs Hog Heaven Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 Can't buy into Riley being a good starter. He's regressed massively this year. I will conceded that maybe if he has a complete stud alongside him he's a competent starter. But if he's asked to take over the main roll from Fletch next year, the carnage over the middle will continue. Hail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 well what do you expect from rounds 3 to 7?? all pro's with every pick? anyone drafted in round 4 through 7 especially who make a team and can contribute are wins in my book. Um, I'd expect, in four years, a pro bowl caliber (in the raw sense of the term, regardless of the joke it has turned into) guy from one of those rounds. Maybe even multiple, if I want to get crazy.More importantly, Shanahan's thing is trading back to accumulate late round picks to build depth. If he was even remotely successful at accumulating these late rounds guys, our ST's wouldn't suck serious ass. That's where you get ST's playmakers, the late round depth picks. We can't even do that correctly. Morris is a star, Reed is on his way. Riley's a good starter, Hankerson is at least solid, Helu is a good role player. There's a bunch of other good depth. That's actually pretty good for those rounds of the draft. Shanahan has screwed up a lot and I want him gone. But drafting hasn't been the problem. You're blind if you don't think drafting has been part of the problem. Or in denial. Or your bar for success is just set really low, which is an affliction I myself suffered from until fairly recently. Riley is not a good starter. He's a body. Hankerson is not solid, he's average. Maybe below average. To me, a guy like Decker is "solid". He makes plays but drops some passes and he's not a game breaker. Hankerson is a disappointment. Morris is one of the only exceptions to what I'm talking about, and Shanahan has always been known for finding late round gem RB's. Helu is a role player, which is fine for a 4th rounder but not great. What is this other "good depth" you speak of? I'm going to copy my post from the last page, which may have been missed because it was the last one before the new page. Answers a lot of what you're saying. You're just repeating what I already allowed in the first post of mine that you responded to--his hits have been our highest draft picks, Morris, and Reed. Maybe Cousins. That's it. That's not acceptable. Our OL is horrific, and Shanahan's entire philosophy is to acquire the athletic OL he needs in the mid-late rounds of the draft. Not a SINGLE one of our draft picks spent on the OL have panned out other than Trent. Not one. We're starting mediocre FA's across the board, with a C he inherited. Our defense is horrific, and the only decent players he's drafted have been with our highest picks in their respective years--Kerrigan and Amerson. He's brought in nobody else of note on that entire side of the ball. Our WR corps is awful. Hankerson is mediocre, and every other WR he's drafted, frankly has been terrible and hasn't developed. Our ST's are horrible--Shanny has CONSISTENTLY traded back for multiple picks in the 5th, 6th, and 7th, in order to cheaply infuse our roster with depth. Not only have almost none of those picks panned out, they haven't even yielded enough depth players with ST's prowess to allow us to field a competitive, hell competent, unit! Shanahan being in control of our drafts has been nothing but an unmitigated disaster, almost across the board, other than our highest pick every season (which even Vinny managed to almost always hit on). Because it's on him either way--either he's not drafting talent, or he's not developing the talent he drafted. It all falls at his feet--that's the beauty with a HC/GM being the same guy. You know exactly who to blame, and where to place the accountability. A classic case of ESOveratingourownItis. Happens to many from time to time but the more the games roll, the more it passes with time. Thankfully not terminal in all but the most homorific of cases. Hail. You're not kidding. It's almost sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drowland Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 I would be very surprised if Alex Mack made it to freedom. As much as Oher has dropped his play I don't think that he would Baltimore lets him go. It's something to keep an eye on. I'm not a huge Brent Grimes fan either. He is playing well this year, but I he is a little older than some of the other corners that'll be available. Joe Banner's calling the shots in Cleveland. From what I remember his philosophy in Philly wasn't investing a lot of $$ in centers. They usually developed UDFA's to take over. Many in Cleveland feel they're going to let Mack walk and will franchise TJ Ward if they can't get an extension done. Baltimore will probably have to decide between keeping Oher or Monroe. I think they'll keep Monroe since he's a LT. Oher's not having a great year, but he is playing with a bum ankle. He's still in his prime and as others said Shanny's passed on Winston and Franklin when they were available before. I forgot about Grimes age. If they re-sign Hall then it doesn't make sense to sign another CB in his 30s. Maybe Sam Shields. Talib might be the best CB in the NFL this year, but giving him a huge contract scares me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 Can't buy into Riley being a good starter. He's regressed massively this year. I will conceded that maybe if he has a complete stud alongside him he's a competent starter. But if he's asked to take over the main roll from Fletch next year, the carnage over the middle will continue. Hail. Great post. Riley isn't a bad player, but he's mostly just a body who needs a more rangy talent next to him to excel. He's nothing special and is someone who isn't going to make very many impact plays. Like you said, he'd be perfectly adequate if we had a really talented prospect starting next to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus T Firefly Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nwe/draft.htm http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/rav/draft.htm http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/gnb/draft.htm http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/sfo/draft.htm Here's the draft history for what are considered maybe the 4 best organizations out there. So, from 2010 on, how many All-Pros do we count after round 2? Assuming we are not insane enough to consider Aaron Hernandez a great pick, I think we're left with Navarro Bowman and Dennis Pitta. Am I missing anyone else? Can't buy into Riley being a good starter. He's regressed massively this year. I will conceded that maybe if he has a complete stud alongside him he's a competent starter. But if he's asked to take over the main roll from Fletch next year, the carnage over the middle will continue. Hail. He's no star, but he's tied for 19th in the league in tackles, and he's good in coverage for an ILB. He certainly qualifies as a solid starter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbs Hog Heaven Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 Great post. Riley isn't a bad player, but he's mostly just a body who needs a more rangy talent next to him to excel. He's nothing special and is someone who isn't going to make very many impact plays. Like you said, he'd be perfectly adequate if we had a really talented prospect starting next to him. I look at our entire roster, and who, in an ideal World, you'd want starting going forward, and this is all I got: Robert, Trent, Garcon, Morris, Young and Reed on offense. (Maybe Hurt and Gettis at guard too.). Hall and Kerrigan on defense. (Hopefully adding Amerson, Chase, Jenkins, Rambo and Thomas to that over time. But as of right now, just those two.). The lack of top tier talent to take this on to the next level is criminal 4 years in. We have good young depth. But with the best will in the World, they aren't guys that you'd consistently want starting if you REALLY want to take this on. This roster is still a sub-standard mess when it comes to REALLY competing with the top teams. Hail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieHardSkinsfanNJ Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 Don't care how but my main target is Fitz. same Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nwe/draft.htm http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/rav/draft.htm http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/gnb/draft.htm http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/sfo/draft.htm Here's the draft history for what are considered maybe the 4 best organizations out there. So, from 2010 on, how many All-Pros do we count after round 2? Assuming we are not insane enough to consider Aaron Hernandez a great pick, I think we're left with Navarro Bowman and Dennis Pitta. Am I missing anyone else? This is irrelevant. Someone else sarcastically made a comment about All-Pros. Nobody on this board is saying that Shanahan is a poor drafter because he's not picking up multiple All-Pros after the 2nd round. So don't moved he goalposts for this discussion. Another thing, I know many people on this board have been incredibly critical of the Patriots drafting over the years, and believe that in many ways they've succeeded despite tons of poor draft choices made by Belichick (with a few brilliant picks and Tom Brady throw in, of course). I wouldn't put the Pats in the top-4 of drafting organizations. I'd go, in no particular order: Seattle, GB, SF, KC, and maybe the Bengals in there somewhere, they're great at collecting talent and working it in. In past years PIT and BAL in their prime years have been included, but they're in a bit of a slump as they age and don't effectively re-stock, so I'm not sure I'd count them as of now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus T Firefly Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 I look at our entire roster, and who, in an ideal World, you'd want starting going forward, and this is all I got: Robert, Trent, Garcon, Morris, Young and Reed on offense. (Maybe Hurt and Gettis at guard too.). Hall and Kerrigan on defense. (Hopefully adding Amerson, Chase, Jenkins, Rambo and Thomas to that over time. But as of right now, just those two.). The lack of top tier talent to take this on to the next level is criminal 4 years in. We have good young depth. But with the best will in the World, they aren't guys that you'd consistently want starting if you REALLY want to take this on. This roster is still a sub-standard mess when it comes to REALLY competing with the top teams. Hail. You've said this before, but it's an overreaction. Basically, anyone we have who isn't a star, you're saying isn't starting caliber. Great teams have mediocre starters, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibbs Hog Heaven Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 You've said this before, but it's an overreaction. Basically, anyone we have who isn't a star, you're saying isn't starting caliber. Great teams have mediocre starters, too. No, I just don't see solid starters from our group. I see talented youth, that maybe with far better coaching may develop into solid starters. But as we currently stand, they aren't at that standard to be consistently relied on for me. Hail. *Edit* That's presuming, which I agree with, you'd cut ties with Bowen and Cofield. (Carriker's not coming back.). With a proper 34 nose, they'd be fine starting at end. J.Jenkins is looking more and more like a bust with the passing week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan2k Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 Absoutely no reason to bring back Orakpo. Rob Jackson can easily replace him. Most of the orakpo sacks come against trash Qbs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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