No More Excuses, Our Interior Oline Is Terrible

[RemoveSnyder]

Any chance we can try Gettis and/or LeRibeus? They can't be any worse.

LeRib was in street clothes for the last game, so ... I don't know what's going on with him.

 

And what's more, those two guys are not exactly a departure from what we already have. Our interior guys were being physically outmatched, but more importantly, they even had difficulty "moving," staying with a slanting defender.

 

So the whole shine-up statements that we parrot constantly, like: "theses guys are smaller but fast" - that actually happens to be a bit of a misnomer.

 

Our guys are getting older & slower and never were strong brutes to begin with.

 

I mean Chester was our most athletic lineman when he first got here. He literally ran downfield with ease, ran faster than anyone else on our line and could catch defensive LBs and d-linemen. Well, NOW, he's not getting to the LBs like Lee. He's having trouble adjusting to whoever that #97 was for the dallas D-line. He's holding, looking slow and getting bulled backwards.

 

So it's more about functional strength, controlling the POA while simultaneously having the ability to run zone based scheme. Alabama runs a zone blocking scheme. You don't need small o-linemen to run Zone (another misnomer).

 

I think basically what has been discussed often in the comprehensive, for a couple years now, has been trying to get the best combo of size, strength with athleticism and good feet. And those guys are out there, you just have to make that paradigm shift first in philosophy.

 

Steve and I have wanted some brutes in the last handful of drafts.

[Going Commando]

The sad part is the offense has been the worst part of the team.  Yes, worse than the defense. 

 

Agreed.  But they're a more stable unit than the D, and if RGIII plays brilliantly, they can be very effective.  The D has some serious personnel and coaching flaws.  It's a bad situation to have to rely on RGIII to be perfect every game though.  The offense has so few playmakers.  I'm hoping Jordan Reed becomes a stud because we're desperate.  Trent is a difference maker (can't really call an OL a playmaker), and RGIII and Garcon are consistent playmakers.  Garcon's not elite but he makes his catches and often gets positive yardage that really wasn't there for normal receivers.

 

Alfred isn't really a playmaker, someone who is going to create for himself behind the LoS, routinely make tacklers miss, and rip off huge positive plays out of nothing.  But truth be told, there are so few RBs like that in the NFL now.  If you can win the numbers game up front (and a healthy RGIII makes this easy for us), then Alfred gets you yards almost every single time, and he doesn't fumble.  And he's good enough in blitz pick up.  And he's been tough and reliable and able to handle a big workload.  IMO that's all you need from your ground game.  Look to the passing game for frequent chunk plays.

 

RGIII is a stud and the fans complaining about him are fools.  He's a once in a generation talent and he's an unbelievably valuable asset.  He's the ultimate playmaker.  But he does need more help IMO.  If you got one true playmaking WR for him, the ripple effect on the rest of the offense would be huge.  It'd be a synergistic effect with RGIII and Garcon because that guy could break up schemes and divide the defensive focus.  If you got one more true difference making OL to go with Trent, preferably at OT, that would also have a huge ripple effect because it'd make it easy to win the numbers game up front and force defenses to send extra men against the passing game to achieve the same results.

[RandyHolt]

The problem the is Skins haven't run enough. This is the same team that led the league in rushing last year, with same OL. Zone blocking scheme is not about overpowering the defensive line. The OL is smaller because the scheme is about speed and the running back making one cut.

 

I agree we haven't run much. When teams are running hurry up and clobbering our defense, Kyle has been forced to abandon his game plans early. 

 

But my point stands. Could defenses be defending us differently? Bull rushing Litch and Monty every play?  Watch our next stretch, its not NEARLY as clean looking as years past. 

 

My gut feeling is, if we could run to victory every game, that is all Mike and Kyle would do. I feel confident in saying defenses adjusted and figured out that the key to beating us it so run blitz, or prevent our OL from running sideways.

 

Why don't we run, if its working perfectly like last year? Something has changed. I highly doubt our exact same OL and offense forgot how to do it. 

[NoCalMike]

People forget that the 'Skins had 3 red zone trips that resulted in 0 TDs.  

The play where RGIII did the keeper. He is in easily if the block is finished.  Instead it was more like a lunge at Lee instead of finishing the block, and Lee was able to go around it.  Otherwise RGIII walks in.

 

The offense is getting better, but it seems like in all this mess the small things have become a problem.  Maybe it is because the O-line is learning how to play when RGIII's mobility is not doing all the heavy lifting?

[RandyHolt]

Good point NoCal, the OL is out of their element as RG3s health and Kyles play calls get sorted out. Oh snap, he is running fast this week! Right when they started getting settled in with Kyle using him in the pocket a lot more, he is running for 80 yards. It is not easy being a Skins OL this season. Maybe they would be better if they had a threat of job security but it appears no backup has any chance of pushing anyone to play better.

 

But I think its also Kyle that is learning to call plays when RG3's legs are not doing the heavy lifting. It seems like they rushed back RG3 more and more, as we see him slowly rounding back into form. RG3 may not have been ready but Kyle was not ready to call the offense for him at 20% run ability, 40% the next week, etc.  We heard it was the knee brace slowing him down, but he should be accustomed to it from previous injuries, and it didn't slow him vs Dallas. I am not sure how much the healing was mental, as he has been down this road before. Hindsight, it may have just been easier to rest him until the bye, and use that to feature Cousins and push his trade value through the roof.

[WhoRUSupposed2Be]

 

Cheaper to build it that way.  And our scheme is one of the few that can make it work with undersized OLs at all.  I'm not sure it's totally accurate to say we're undersized.  Gettis and Lichtensteiger are smaller, but everyone else is over 300 pounds.  But I would definitely agree that we're underpowered.  No power players and no remarkable athletes aside from Trent, who is spectacularly different from the others.  We're not necessarily quick either, you saw our guards struggling to pull and they got beat to the point of attack by the Cowboys players.  You saw them strungle with interior speed and commit holds and false starts.

 

We've had limited resources and we've spent most of them at QB, OT, WR, and on the defense. I don't really have a problem with that, except we've made mistakes and haven't gotten the best return on investment at those positions.

 

We've probably spent more on the QB position than any other team during the last four offseasons.  McNabb + RGIII was a boatload of draft picks.  Then we spent a high pick on Trent and gave up some draft picks for Jammal Brown and that didn't work out.  Spent a lot of our FA money on defensive linemen and only Cofield has worked out really well.  Spent a lot of the rest of our money on the receivers and secondary, and only Garcon has really shined from that entire crop of DBs and WRs.  We spent a second rounder on a DE that we've gotten nothing from.  And we just spent a lot of draft picks on DBs and we probably won't see a proper return on that investment for a few years.

 

We've spent draft picks on the linebackers, and that's worked fairly well for us.  Though our work isn't done and the ILBs need work moving forward.

 

I still think that, outside of Kerrigan, our 2011 draft class was a failure.  One big sad missed opportunity.  We picked up a lot of draft picks to fill in all of these supposedly huge holes in the roster... and ended up with a lot of low quality depth chart filler that we're looking to upgrade as soon as possible.

 

You're never going to fix everything.  But we've just made too many mistakes with our personnel, been simultaneously screwed over by the NFL in unprecedented fashion, and we've paid the price by having to go cheap at spots and live with lesser talent.  Now our results aren't very good and it's a major disappointment.  I truly believe our problems are mostly personnel issues and we're not going to be able to start addressing them until the offseason.

For a basketball person, you certainly have a unique IQ when it comes to personnel

[WhoRUSupposed2Be]

Agreed.  But they're a more stable unit than the D, and if RGIII plays brilliantly, they can be very effective.  The D has some serious personnel and coaching flaws.  It's a bad situation to have to rely on RGIII to be perfect every game though.  The offense has so few playmakers.  I'm hoping Jordan Reed becomes a stud because we're desperate.  Trent is a difference maker (can't really call an OL a playmaker), and RGIII and Garcon are consistent playmakers.  Garcon's not elite but he makes his catches and often gets positive yardage that really wasn't there for normal receivers.

 

Alfred isn't really a playmaker, someone who is going to create for himself behind the LoS, routinely make tacklers miss, and rip off huge positive plays out of nothing.  But truth be told, there are so few RBs like that in the NFL now.  If you can win the numbers game up front (and a healthy RGIII makes this easy for us), then Alfred gets you yards almost every single time, and he doesn't fumble.  And he's good enough in blitz pick up.  And he's been tough and reliable and able to handle a big workload.  IMO that's all you need from your ground game.  Look to the passing game for frequent chunk plays.

 

RGIII is a stud and the fans complaining about him are fools.  He's a once in a generation talent and he's an unbelievably valuable asset.  He's the ultimate playmaker.  But he does need more help IMO.  If you got one true playmaking WR for him, the ripple effect on the rest of the offense would be huge.  It'd be a synergistic effect with RGIII and Garcon because that guy could break up schemes and divide the defensive focus.  If you got one more true difference making OL to go with Trent, preferably at OT, that would also have a huge ripple effect because it'd make it easy to win the numbers game up front and force defenses to send extra men against the passing game to achieve the same results.

This is very important for alot of these impotent and illogical fans to understand.

[bobbi3stix]

Guys, lets be totally honest. Last year we were not even a good team we just got hot and emotional at the right time.

 

And played some teams at the best time. It was a "perfect storm" in our favor.

[Puma Kane]

Its funny watching our O-linemen get lifted off their feet on damn near every passing snap. These guys just seem to small to compete regularly. Some how they manage to hang in there from time to time, but they still get pushed back often before regaining leverage. That would make anybody panic back there.

If Shanny is going to keep them small upfront, then he better get another playmaker or go more toward two tight end sets.

[IrepDC]

I feel like they are executing. We are the exact same starting 11 as last year. Same coaches. 

 

I think the problem is that defenses just bull rush every time. If its a pass, great. If its a run, they don't let our mobile OL just run wherever they want. They are pushing them into the backfield. Our zone stretch runs wide aren't nearly as clean. That cutback lane is not clean. Morris has probably been stopped by one tackler more than all of last year. He is not getting up to speed before being engaged.

 

If I am wrong so be it. But lets speculate that I am correct.  Lets say defenses are simply attacking more / reading less.

 

Will better execution offset that?  Or, does Mike need to rethink rolling in the modern day game with a 284 pound guard. Or does Kyle need to adjust his play calling to limit plays that expose a very lightweight G.

 

About Monty getting blown up... I suspect it is not easy to play next to who must be the lightest guard in the NFL.

This is EXACTLY what's happening. Good breakdown.

Before Griffin's career is over, we will have a coach build a solid oline in front of him, and ESPN is going to have highlight reels of the Redskins on every single week.

[maskedsuperstar]

And you think what the Giants did is the norm? Go right ahead and keep.relying on late season magic.

Didn't say it was the norm. I said the Giants have LIVED BY IT!

Its funny watching our O-linemen get lifted off their feet on damn near every passing snap. These guys just seem to small to compete regularly. Some how they manage to hang in there from time to time, but they still get pushed back often before regaining leverage. That would make anybody panic back there.

If Shanny is going to keep them small upfront, then he better get another playmaker or go more toward two tight end sets.

The OL is not as bad people think it is. Teams are blitzing the Skins more.

[Puma Kane]

Didn't say it was the norm. I said the Giants have LIVED BY IT!

The OL is not as bad people think it is. Teams are blitzing the Skins more.

And why you think teams are blitzing us more and in particular, the 'interior' of the offensive line?

They're not blitzing us up the middle just for sake.

[TheLongshot]

Well, nobody was complaining about the OL last year, when they were mauling defenses. When they get back to executing, then you'll see everything else work. Comes down to executing.

 

RG3's performance did a lot to cover for the sins of the OL.  They did a solid job run blocking last year, but it was a horrible pass blocking line.  Even so, it seems they performed above their ability last year and they can't get any sort of consistancy.  Even Williams has had some bad games this year.

 

To be honest, it goes back to Shanahan not making rebuilding the OL a priority from day one.  If we had drafted some young guys up front, they might have been ready by the time we drafted RG3.  Instead, four years down the line, we are still working with a patched together OL which the FO wanted to celebrate that they resigned all of them.  To me, it wasn't much of a positive that we were bringing back the same guys when they all needed to improve if we were going to get better as a team.  It is also a big disappointment that none of the young guys we have drafted (other than Williams) has stepped up to displace these underperforming starters.

 

We can talk about these guys getting back into form, but that should have happened during the bye.  I just have a feeling this isn't going to get any better this season.  It is just a low point that Dallas' beat up DL pretty much owned our OL for most of the game.

[cphil006]

The scrub backups of the Cowgirls d-line destroyed our o-line.

 

Complete disaster 

I was embarrased watching them play... did the coaches vacation the entire offseason in denial that we needed to imrove anywhere?  THat read option masked so many glaring weaknesses to a degree, but come on!!  the interior line has sucked for years!  couldn't pick up a cheap Free Agent?

[texasthunder]

RG3's performance did a lot to cover for the sins of the OL.  They did a solid job run blocking last year, but it was a horrible pass blocking line.  Even so, it seems they performed above their ability last year and they can't get any sort of consistancy.  Even Williams has had some bad games this year.

 

To be honest, it goes back to Shanahan not making rebuilding the OL a priority from day one.  If we had drafted some young guys up front, they might have been ready by the time we drafted RG3.  Instead, four years down the line, we are still working with a patched together OL which the FO wanted to celebrate that they resigned all of them.  To me, it wasn't much of a positive that we were bringing back the same guys when they all needed to improve if we were going to get better as a team.  It is also a big disappointment that none of the young guys we have drafted (other than Williams) has stepped up to displace these underperforming starters.

 

And it still is.

I hope they spend some FA money on some lineman and one or two good receivers.

[Ozymandias]

Im not so sure any more. Morris is still a beast, and RG3 is getting PLENTY of time to throw the ball, especially during the broncos game.

[Smurf85]

Im not so sure any more. Morris is still a beast, and RG3 is getting PLENTY of time to throw the ball, especially during the broncos game.

Lol they said he was hit 75 percent of the time when in the pocket today. So I don't know what you were watching, but even for the few plays kirk got he was getting knocked around.

[Laron Burgundy]

Im not so sure any more. Morris is still a beast, and RG3 is getting PLENTY of time to throw the ball, especially during the broncos game.

Plenty isn't exactly the word for it. A lot of it was great coverage too. Rg3 probably needed to scramble more cause nobody was open and our oline couldn't block long enough for crossing routes to develop.

[Ozymandias]

Lol they said he was hit 75 percent of the time when in the pocket today. So I don't know what you were watching, but even for the few plays kirk got he was getting knocked around.

 

Im pretty sure there were a bunch of times where he had a lot of time to throw but the recievers werent getting open, and thats why he was hit. Dont put all the blame on the oline because rg3 was hit.

[Chump Bailey]

I can work with Williams, Kory, Chester and even Polumbus to an extent but Montgomery is just bad beyond belief. He allows so much interior pressure right up the gut that it compromises the entire line. Then he has trouble getting to the next level to make plays (The QB draw where he fails to get the LB) As much as I would like them to get a RT in free agency to replace Polumbus I think they need to put their resources into signing a Center.

 

What? Our Pro Bowl caliber Center blows?

 

Yeah, been saying that for a long, long time...

[BraunMan92]

And it's because Shanahan BUILT the line that way.

 

We need more 40-gut and counter-trey, with guys spending more time in the weight room.

 

Snyder should realize that this is how we won 3 Lombardis.  Power run game.