***2021-2022 NBA Season Thread***

[Bubble Screen]

If a player doesn't want to play somewhere, then pull a Kobe or Eli.

Personally, I agree with the poster that said if a team is paying me 5 million a year, I will play wherever they want me to. It's not like a player is forever tied to the city he is drafted. Sheesh.

Edited May 21, 2014 by Bubble Screen

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Wait...Boston is considered an elite team.

 

My point was that the market does not make the player. The player makes the player.

 

The market does not make the player, but a player often has to be drafted by the right team. Jalen Rose hits on this on his podcast (which is really good) all the time. This week, he went in depth on it. He got drafted by Denver, where he played quite a bit but where Bernie Bickerstaff was the coach/GM/and soon to be fall guy. Bickerstaff was desperate to save his job and made a big trade to get Mark Jackson.

 

Rose goes to Indy, where Reggie Miller is pissed because Jackson was his best friend and where Larry Brown hates rookies. And Larry Brown particularly hated Rose. He sees limited action in 66 games and Brown more or less tells him that he's not sure he should even be in the league. If Brown had stuck around, he's probably just a journeyman for the rest of his career.

 

But Larry Bird comes in and loves him. He becomes a starter and a 20 ppg player.

 

I don't know if Kwame Brown was ever going to be a star. But the two worst things that ever could have happened to him were being drafted #1 overall and having to deal with the insane Michael Jordan. If he and Gasol had switched places, he would have had few expectations and an easy place to learn to play. And he would have had Jerry West guiding his career instead of the hobo army that ran the Wizards.

[Kosher Ham]

since when werent the Boston Celtics an elite franchise? What are you talking about?

I did not say anything about the market, you did. My point was about a dysfunctional franchise wrecking a career before it starts.

 

The franchise does not hurt the player.

 

Timberwolves...Garnett, Love...etc.

 

Chris Bosh, LeBron, etc.

 

They have to bring it. New Orleans was a pitiful team...certainly did not hurt Chris Paul.

 

OT - Take a look at some of the best WR's to ever play the game... not even in the first round. It's the same thing really.

[Bubble Screen]

Tom Brady is a Cali guy. Drafted in the 6th round by a team on the East coast. My point? Either you can play, or you can't.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

The franchise does not hurt the player.

 

Timberwolves...Garnett, Love...etc.

 

Chris Bosh, LeBron, etc.

 

They have to bring it. New Orleans was a pitiful team...certainly did not hurt Chris Paul.

 

OT - Take a look at some of the best WR's to ever play the game... not even in the first round. It's the same thing really.

 

Franchises can certainly hurt players. Kyrie Irving just may have been saved, but Cleveland last year was a place where all of his worst habits could thrive.

 

Some players are going to thrive regardless of where they are. Chris Paul was the best point guard on the planet when he was 16 years old. Lebron could have played on a rec league team and would have turned out largely the same.

 

But it's there are a lot of dudes who need the right team with the right coach. Can you even begin to imagine Lance Stephonson's career if the Knicks had drafted him? He might be in federal prison right now, instead of a borderline all-star.

 

Antoine Walker was ruined as a player by his rookie year in Boston where ML Carr let him play any position he wanted and take any shot he wanted at any time he wanted.

 

Does anyone really think Tony Parker would be Tony Parker if he had been taken at 26 by Philadelphia and forced to watch Allen Iverson go 1 on 5 for his first few years in the league?

Tom Brady is a Cali guy. Drafted in the 6th round by a team on the East coast. My point? Either you can play, or you can't.

 

What do you think happens if Lance Stephonson is drafted by the Knicks? Is he still in the NBA today?

[Destino]

By the way, let's not pretend that the draft is the only of doing this. EPL does not have a draft. It's first-signed, first-served. And MLB's international signings are largely a free-for-all. So, other models can work.

It's first scouted first served. If you wanted to do that in the nba the D-league would be signing 15 year olds and college basketball would essentially cease to exist.

[CrypticVillain]

I don't know LKB... You really think that the Knicks are that bad that Stephenson would be a criminal  had he stayed home instead of going to Indiana? 

 

I think he would still be a good player had he played for the Knicks, just not as good as he is now. 

[Bubble Screen]

I understand your point, LKB. It's just that I have a hard time having sympathy for an 18-20 year old making 5 mil, not landing in an ideal situation.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

It's first scouted first served. If you wanted to do that in the nba the D-league would be signing 15 year olds and college basketball would essentially cease to exist.

 

They do that in international baseball already. Either the league or the federal government could set age limits on minors. I don't think a challenge to an 18 year old age limit would lose in court.

[Kosher Ham]

LKB, The player has to be held accountable regardless by his own standards. Brown was drafted #1...I blame him not the Bullets.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I don't know LKB... You really think that the Knicks are that bad that Stephenson would be a criminal  had he stayed home instead of going to Indiana? 

 

I think he would still be a good player had he played for the Knicks, just not as good as he is now. 

 

It's not the Knicks franchise. It's New York City. You take the most heralded New York high school star of the decad whis is coming off a lousy college season and a domestic assault and throw him back into NYC at age 19 with a million dollars in his pocket. And you put him on a team with no real leadership at any level. How many times a day is he hearing:

 

"I need $50 thou to get his label off" and

 

"You should be playing. You betta than......."

 

What's the worst that could happen?

 

Larry Bird is not a perfect GM, but he has a history of taking on problem child players and getting them turned around. And it's a lot harder to get into trouble in Indianapolis than it is in Brooklyn (where he would almost certainly have lived in a house with 15 cousins, uncles, and hangers on. Lance on the Knicks would have been either a tragedy or a comedy.

[CrypticVillain]

LKB, The player has to be held accountable regardless by his own standards. Brown was drafted #1...I blame him not the Bullets.

I agree, to an extent. A player can put in all the work, but if the coaching, players, etc. around you are mediocre, or worst, what can you do?

 

I know I am going way off course, but look at Phillip rivers and Eli Manning. I think most of us can agree that Rivers is the better QB of the two, but Eli has two rings. Why? Because the Giants build a better team around Eli than Rivers had in SD. (For the most part)

[MattFancy]

I agree, to an extent. A player can put in all the work, but if the coaching, players, etc. around you are mediocre, or worst, what can you do?

 

I know I am going way off course, but look at Phillip rivers and Eli Manning. I think most of us can agree that Rivers is the better QB of the two, but Eli has two rings. Why? Because the Giants build a better team around Eli than Rivers had in SD. (For the most part)

 

That's tough. The Chargers had some really good team that just fell short. They went 14-2 one year with Marty at the helm. Now I agree that Rivers is better, but he's had some good teams in SD.

 

I do agree though that where the player lands does have some effect. If you put a rookie in a situation where he is expected to carry the load every night, that's a ton of pressure on a young guy right away. If they go somewhere with some more developed talent and don't have to the superstar from day 1, they seem to do better over the long haul.

[Kosher Ham]

MLS, Take a peek at Wilkins or hell, for football Owens, Marino.

 

They didn't get the bling, but they are still considered among the best that ever did it.

 

See what I mean ? D Green didn't get the highlights that Deion did, but he was right there with him as far as football talent.

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

 

If you cannot choose the destination for which you want to be employed, then it is illegal. I asked you this before, apply it to your life and keep it on the salary of the average American and everyone in this thread would be up in arms. The draft process is very illegal, but is accepted in CBAs.

 

At least with our jobs, we can say we chose to go into that work environment. These guys do not have that same option.

See, that's where you are wrong, they can choose the destination they want to be employed once they are a free agent.  They also can choose to apply for any other job in the world, the do not have to play in the NBA if they are against the draft and rules set in place by the league and owners.  

 

They know if they make themselves eligible for the NBA draft they most likely will go to a horrible team, possibly in a city they don't necessarily want to live in.  Its the same in a lot of job markets for everyday folks like me and you.  When I graduated college with a mechanical engineering degree, I hired a service to help me find a job in NC.  At the time I was told that the booming areas for those jobs were in Atlanta, Houston/Dallas and Seattle.  

 

Sure, there were places that hired in every state, but the job availability was not as good and they told me it would be extremely harder to find one in NC, especially with no experience.  I had a few interviews, never got a job in the field. I absolutely did not want to move to Seattle or Texas at the time, but was somewhat ok with Atlanta, which my wife didn't want to move to any of the locations.  

 

Bottom line, being an NBA player is the job, the team/city is the department.  Like them, I had a choice to make.  Live in a city I don't want to in order to get the engineering job and excellent salary.  Or stay put knowing I probably wouldn't catch a break for a really long time if at all.  We decided to stay put, wife got a job in her field, I worked in grocery retail for 4 more years (11 years total) before I got a break and on board at the company I'm at right now.

 

If making 5 million dollars to play in a city they don't want to live in bothers them that much, then go to Europe and play ball.  Don't like Europe, stay in college and get your college degree and start applying for a normal job.  Go work in retail busting your ass for $10/hr while trying to find a job that pays more so you can take advantage of the degree you earned on a scholarship.  I do not feel sorry for any athlete that gets drafted and paid to play professional sports in regards to which team drafted them or the city they will have to play in.  

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

LKB, The player has to be held accountable regardless by his own standards. Brown was drafted #1...I blame him not the Bullets.

 

I'm not saying the players who fail are blameless.

 

But you are discounting ownership, coaching, etc. to a ridiculous degree. Which I find remarkable considering this is a board filled with Redskins, Wizards, and - to a lesser degree - Orioles fans.

 

Why were the Steelers seemingly able to draft all pro after all pro in the mid teens and 20s for two decades while the Redskins busted on first round picks all the time? Is it just that they had a better eye for talent or did they know how to develop talent when they got it?

 

Why had the Wizards gone 30 years without winning a 2nd round game? A bad eye for talent or was it because Abe ran the team like a family-owned pawn shop?

 

Are we saying that the Clippers are the Clippers just because Elgin Baylor wasn't very good at drafting? Or did Sterling never give his coaches an environment where they could thrive?

 

Even elite teams can cause themselves problems. Want to know why Larry Bird was broken down as a player by 1988? Because the Celtics were stuck in 1958 and held their training camp in a tiny college gym in Boston on a floor that was basically concrete. He fell, hurt his back on that monstrosity, and was never the same again.

 

SteveMcQueen has stolen a theory of mine and may be claiming it as his own now. But I believe that NBA teams can only really develop three or four young players at a time (and that may be pushing it). The Wizards can probably only handle Wall and Beal, and that's why their roster is those two dudes and a bunch of 30 year olds. The teams that turn into the total disasters are the ones loaded with lottery picks under the age of 25.

 

My favorite team of all time? The 2000 Chicago Bulls.

 

Look at this roster:

 

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/2001.html

 

If told you that I could let you build a team around a young Elton Brand, Ron Artest, Brad Miller, and Jamal Crawford, you would probably kiss me on the mouth. And if told you that I was going to draft you Tyson Chandler the next year, you would probably do unspeakable things to me. That is five all-star level players who could all play multiple positions. That's two of the ten best defensive players of the decade. And those teams were terrible because everyone on the roster was 23 years old or younger. None of them ever played a meaningful minute in Chicago.

[Dan T.]

It's funny to me how, no matter who wins the lottery, the same people bleat "Fixed!" 

 

- Big market city wins? FIXED. 

- Recently relocated franchise wins? FIXED! 

- ****ing Cleveland wins? FIXED!

 

Is there any team that could win the lottery that would cause the conspiracy nuts to say, "Hmm, I guess it wasn't fixed this year."?

[CrypticVillain]

MLS, Take a peek at Wilkins or hell, for football Owens, Marino.

 

They didn't get the bling, but they are still considered among the best that ever did it.

 

See what I mean ? D Green didn't get the highlights that Deion did, but he was right there with him as far as football talent.

I hear you. I was just trying to say that the team you go to matters somewhat. 

Do you think if Marino went to the Bucs in the 80's he would be as good as he was in Miami. If TO went to the Redskins instead of Sans Frans would he be as good as he was.

 

I know the Chargers had good teams, but I think if you flipped Eli and Rivers, the Chargers wouldn't have been good with Eli as they were with Rivers and the Giants probably would have won another Super Bowl with Rivers.

 

Let me ask y'all this? If Duncan went to the 76ers or Grizzlies in 97, would he be as good as he was? 

It's funny to me how, no matter who wins the lottery, the same people bleat "Fixed!" 

 

- Big market city wins? FIXED. 

- Recently relocated franchise wins? FIXED! 

- ****ing Cleveland wins? FIXED!

 

Is there any team that could win the lottery that would cause the conspiracy nuts to say, "Hmm, I guess it wasn't fixed this year."?

 

It's funny to me how, no matter who wins the lottery, the same people bleat "Fixed!" 

 

- Big market city wins? FIXED. 

- Recently relocated franchise wins? FIXED! 

- ****ing Cleveland wins? FIXED!

 

Is there any team that could win the lottery that would cause the conspiracy nuts to say, "Hmm, I guess it wasn't fixed this year."?

It's not that Cleveland won, it's that they keep wining. Three times in four years? It ain't enough luck in the world lol

[Sticksboi05]

Everyone flops, get over it. The Stevenson flop was hilarious, convenient that you overlook that.

 

When you are 6'8 250 and a 4x MVP, you are going to get called out more than fairly good players, "get over it". 

Edited May 21, 2014 by Sticksboi05

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

 

It's not the Knicks franchise. It's New York City. You take the most heralded New York high school star of the decad whis is coming off a lousy college season and a domestic assault and throw him back into NYC at age 19 with a million dollars in his pocket. And you put him on a team with no real leadership at any level. How many times a day is he hearing:

 

"I need $50 thou to get his label off" and

 

"You should be playing. You betta than......."

 

What's the worst that could happen?

 

Larry Bird is not a perfect GM, but he has a history of taking on problem child players and getting them turned around. And it's a lot harder to get into trouble in Indianapolis than it is in Brooklyn (where he would almost certainly have lived in a house with 15 cousins, uncles, and hangers on. Lance on the Knicks would have been either a tragedy or a comedy.

Maybe if he took advantage of the free ride to college, stayed four years and earned a degree he would have matured enough to not act like a dumbass should he be drafted by NY or any big city market team.  

 

If a player can't stay out of trouble, regardless of what city he lives/plays in, then they don't deserve to play professional sports.  It's a gift and privilege not entitlement.  

Edited May 21, 2014 by Dont Taze Me Bro

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

MLS, Take a peek at Wilkins or hell, for football Owens, Marino.

 

They didn't get the bling, but they are still considered among the best that ever did it.

 

See what I mean ? D Green didn't get the highlights that Deion did, but he was right there with him as far as football talent.

 

You are talking about the .1 percent though.

 

It would have been pretty difficult to screw up Lebron James and Dwyane Wade. It will ne next to impossible to screw up Anthony Davis. Those guys had off-the-charts talent but they also had a drive and work ethic at 19 that was remarkable. Same deal with Kobe. Kobe Bryant is a sociopath and was going to do whatever it took to be great. Same deal with Garnett. Garnett is a physical freak who had an intenisty and work ethic that were alarming.

 

And then there are talents like Shaq who were so unfairly talented that lousy work ethics couldn't stop them. Hell, I'm not sure Ricky Davis ever played a game without a hangover and he could average 16 to 20 ppg. (Part of me is convinced that Ricky Davis is the greatest pure talent in the history of the NBA, because seriously, how does THAT guy have a good ten year career?)

 

I'm talking about the Tyson Chandlers of the world. Guys with really good talent who needed the right coaching and the right organization. Did anyone consider him worth mentioning until Rick Carlisle figured out that you could build an entire defense around him?

 

Here's another good example: Rajon Rondo. Sick athlete. High basketball IQ. Frighteningly intense. But what happens to him if he ends up on a team where he needs to score 18 ppg as a rookie and where there is a head coach that thinks he is a moody loner? If Larry Brown coaches Rondo as a rookie, he may not be in basketball right now. I'm deadly serious about that.

[Kosher Ham]

MLS, I do believe those players would have still been great.

 

LKB, I am not dismissing it completely, but I feel like the stars are going to perform regardless.

 

Melo as another example. Iverson was not my favorite player at his position...but the guy was exciting to watch and went all out,  every player around the league understood that.

 

Sticks...250 is not a tank. My father in law is about 290 and 6-7.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Maybe if he took advantage of the free ride to college, stayed four years and earned a degree he would have matured enough to not act like a dumbass should he be drafted by NY or any big city market team.  

 

Lance Stephenson was famous when he was 15. He was punking Jamal Crawford in games in the Rucker League at age 16.

 

Do you really think he was going to spend four years in Cincinatti studying criminal justice or something?

 

Stephenson might be my favorite player in the league right now, because - by rights - he should be Steph Marbury or Isiah Rider at best and Sebastian Telfair at worst. He should either be a gunner on a lousy team that no one wants to play for or someone who never learned a thing about basketball past the age of 17. The fact that he is a third or fourth option on a contender is just insane to me.

[Kosher Ham]

Some great points there LKB. I won't deny that.

 

Flip side...Why are Kobe, LeBron, Shaq High School coaches...etc. Not head coaches in the NBA at this point ?

 

MJ was the same way...he refused to lose. No coach was stopping his potential. No one was going to stop his determination, drive, desire.

 

That's what I mean man. Think more along the lines of a Wes Welker or Santana Moss, umm.. Steve Smith.  They brought it.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

MLS, I do believe those players would have still been great.

 

LKB, I am not dismissing it completely, but I feel like the stars are going to perform regardless.

 

Melo as another example. Iverson was not my favorite player at his position...but the guy was exciting to watch and went all out,  every player around the league understood that.

 

Sticks...250 is not a tank. My father in law is about 290 and 6-7.

 

You keep naming Hall of Famers. I keep naming marginal all-stars and middle of the road players.

 

With rare exceptions, Hall of Fame level players are going to thrive. They generally just have way too much talent and enough work ethic. They can certainly go sideways on you too. Iverson never really had the right coach beyond college. (John Thompson was an over-rated in game coach, but he was the perfect person to coach a young Iverson). But even an Iverson going sideways is still pretty spectacular.

 

There is a reason that nearly every team in the league would like to have Doc Rivers as their coach, and it has nothing to do with strategy. He gets guys to play their balls off, to play unselfishly, and to develop into real human beings (at least for a while). Rondo is a weird dude with a weird skillset who could have gone south in the wrong situation. Christ, the second Big Baby Davis left Doc the first time, he turned into a disaster as a player.

 

And there is a reason Mike Brown keeps getting fired. He is a defensive genius. But he has no idea how to develop players and he apparently even has a hard time keeping veterans in line. And everyone seems to eventually hate him.

 

By the way, I apparently really really hate Larry Brown.