The Official ES All Things Redskins Name Change Thread (Reboot Edition---Read New OP)

[Larry]

Apparently, so is everyone else in the DC Metro area. I think I'm the only person on this thead without a claim to Native ancestry.

A claim which is both calling multiple liars, and as grotesquely untrue as several of your posts on this page.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Show Dan Snyder a hypothetical poll that says that 90% of Natives are offended by the name? Then, IMO, if he keeps using it anyway, then that's proof that he intends to offend. He's been informed that he's offending people, and he's doing it, anyway. (Maybe offending them isn't his PRIMARY motivation. But he's absolutely saying that he DOESN'T CARE if he offends).

 

In that scenario, he just buys a bigger playground and keeps fighting for the name. Because he is not fighting for a priciple here; he is fighting for brand recognition.

 

Tyco could change to Covidien because no one in the general public knew what the hell Tyco was except it was the company with the solid gold toilet seat. Washington Redskins is an internationally recognized brand name.

A claim which is both calling multiple liars, and as grotesquely untrue as several of your posts on this page.

 

I'm glad you are here to ensure that every post is fact-checked and annotated.

[Larry]

Aside from the ridiculous "Redskins should be defined in the dictionary as a professional football team in Maryland" argument from the perpetually aggrieved Larry, redskin means a Native American in all non-potato related contexts. .

Are you capable of making a post in which you don't flat out lie about somebody else?

Actually, I guess that's a rhetorical question. I assume that you have done so, at least once.

You just seem to be unable to do so, this morning.

----------

But I love the "the context of a word is irrelevant, if you ignore certain contexts" argument. That's some real persuasive logic, there.

 

I'm glad you are here to ensure that every post is fact-checked and annotated.

I'm observing that you're back to supporting lies, by making more lies.

[Kosher Ham]

Apparently, so is everyone else in the DC Metro area. I think I'm the only person on this thead without a claim to Native ancestry.

 

(Oooooohhhhhh.....I bet that gets interpreted as a "personal attack." How dare I be so bold and impetuous and condescending and, um, bold and obnoxious and rude? Do I have no decency?!?!?! Do I?!??!)

 

I can prove it. It's not a claim it's a fact.

 

You can attack me all you want. I don't snitch.

I don't live in DC. I was born in NY...hint.

I was raised in DC and consider myself FROM DC.

 

WTH am I doing here ?  I don't owe it to you to explain that personal ****.

 

As I told you before, I don't need you to protect me. I have never been called a Redskin, nor anyone in my family.

 

It's offensive more than the name of the Washington Redskins.

 

Pay my bills and then you can tell me how we should feel.

 

I hate to say it this way...funny how the white guy wants to protect the natives now after all the ...yeah.

[btfoom]

The problem I have with this FCC nonsense is that there is no clear definition of 'offensive'.

 

First, there is no constitutional protection from being offended and the laws that cover 'offensive speech' are kept in due to political correctness and not legal statutes.

 

Next, the debate as to whether Redskins is a patently offensive name isn't settled.  The lawsuit should be dropped if constitutional law were followed.  Sadly, I think activist judges will again try to put forward a law they like, even though it's not properly constructed.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

The problem I have with this FCC nonsense is that there is no clear definition of 'offensive'.

 

First, there is no constitutional protection from being offended and the laws that cover 'offensive speech' are kept in due to political correctness and not legal statutes.

 

That's kind of a complaint against the FCC in general though. The FCC doesn't really have to follow the Constitution when it comes to the airwaves. That is why you don't see boobies on Fox prime time.

[Larry]

In that scenario, he just buys a bigger playground and keeps fighting for the name. Because he is not fighting for a priciple here; he is fighting for brand recognition.

 

Observing that nobody (including you) knows what Dan Snyder would do, if shown such a poll.

(And observing that your complete ignorance does not in any way inhibit you from slandering him, either).

However, I will observe that we DO know what THE NAME CHANGERS will do, if confronted by a poll that shows that 90% of Natives disagree with THEM.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

A claim which is both calling multiple liars, and as grotesquely untrue as several of your posts on this page.

 

Now you have gone too far.

 

It is pistols at dawn, sir.

Observing that nobody (including you) knows what Dan Snyder would do, if shown such a poll.

 

 

Dan Snyder will do what Dan Snyder always does. Dig in his heels and throw money at the problem.

 

Seriously, when this issue exploded on him in the last two years, Dan's response was to first yell. (The write that down in all caps thing). And then, throw money around. ("Find me a tribe, Gladys. I need to buy some loyalty stat!")

[Larry]

That's kind of a complaint against the FCC in general though. The FCC doesn't really have to follow the Constitution when it comes to the airwaves. That is why you don't see boobies on Fox prime time.

Agreed that the FCC has powers that aren't as restricted by things like the constitution as if they were trying to regulate, say, newspapers.

They're more like, say, schools, where restrictions on things like speech are allowed.

(There are legal and practical reasons for some of these. And I will note that I don't agree with some of the powers that the FCC has been granted, in some cases).

But I will also observe that I think it's premature to be arguing the merits of the FCC banning the name. Near as I can tell, all that's hapoened is:

1). Some professional complainer has filed a complaint.

2). The FCC has said "yeah, right. We promise that we will pay it the attention it deserves".

[Soup's Uncle]

The name's gonna change sooner rather than later now.  With the Ray Rice scandal calming down, the eye of Sauron is coming back towards us.

 

And it's not going to go away.  Now "Redskins" won't be able to be said on all of the main networks?  Jeez.  Snyder's gonna have a stroke.

[Larry]

I actually agree with this position.   However, "You are in the minority." is also a complete sentence and it seems to me that this is where this issue stands.   Do most Native Americans actually find this offensive or not?   IMO, an independent, totally unbias study would go a long way towards settling this matter. 

That's been my response to anybody who has issues with the Annenberg poll: Don't like that poll? Run another one.

(Me, I think it's a pretty safe bet that opinions have changed, over 10 years. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the "percent offended" has doubled. And I have argued that, if that's the case, then it's time to be working on the exit strategy, because movements like that tend to snowball, and you don't want to be seen the way southern segregationists are, fighting for something even after society has decided that it's wrong).

[Bonez3]

This Oreo thing is really dumb. Also, who calls white people Oreos.

The Redskin thing is really dumb. Besides, who calls NAs Redskins.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

I was born in NY...hint.

Iroquois?

[Kosher Ham]

The Redskin thing is really dumb. Besides, who calls NAs Redskins.

 

Ignorant people that one poster on this thread has come to meet (which I feel is unfortunate) . I can not imagine calling people certain names.

I had to stop my wife from beating a woman down for calling me a name and it was not Redskin...ehh, what did the old lady know besides I have a tan, I would not be surprised if she called different races other names.

 

Iroquois?

 

Indeed. I may have stated that (pretty sure) in this thread.

 

That was kind of a jerk post that I made and you quoted though after reading it.

[ZRagone]

An Oreo is a cookie first and foremost. A redskin was always a Native American.

And both were originally non-offensive in their use.

Regardless, my discomfort tends to be with all-native themed names and imagery because I find cultural appropriation troubling in a general sense. And I do think Chief Wahoo is the most egregious current image. I'm not sure why Redskins is  the #1 cause here aside from the fact that the NFL is bigger than MLB and Dan Snyder is a dick.

Now I disagree with you in terms of native american themes, but I can at least understand this argument better than the "Redskins is inately offensive and wrong to use" argument. And would explain why you have an issue with Redskin over "oreo", since it's not about whether or not it's a slur but whether or not it's referencing a group of people who shouldn't be referenced in sports.

[Fan since a Fetus]

I am disappointed in the people that have allowed their opinions to be manipulated with the absence of facts.  It is really disheartening.  I don't even know that disappointed is the correct word.  It is more than that.  It is very troubling to me.  This goes beyond the name change of a football team now.  This is more of a disappointment in society as a whole.  I think overall, this will make me a better person just because I will devote more time to researching a subject rather than following because I think I agree. 

[Kosher Ham]

An Oreo is a cookie first and foremost.

 

Hmmm...

 

Again... my mom in her sixties, grandmother...never been called a Redskin. I'm mid 40's...my mom was a teen.

 

And a Redskin is first and foremost...a football player.

 

 

[ZRagone]

Apparently, so is everyone else in the DC Metro area. I think I'm the only person on this thead without a claim to Native ancestry.

 

(Oooooohhhhhh.....I bet that gets interpreted as a "personal attack." How dare I be so bold and impetuous and condescending and, um, bold and obnoxious and rude? Do I have no decency?!?!?! Do I?!??!)

Yes, why in the world would someone take you insinuating a person is lying about their heritage as being an attack. How silly of people :roll:

[VinnyIsThatYou?]

Guys, I'm sorry if this has already been addressed, this is a very long thread and I can't read it all.

 

First, a disclaimer - I do not want the name to change but I'm not going to cry and stay up at night if it does. It would suck to bend to the whims of perpetual whiners who don't focus on important issues, but whatever, that's life.

 

Are there bylaws forcing a team to have a name? Can we just be the "Washington Football Club" or Washington FC? We could keep the colors and go back to the old Arrow helmet or even the old "R" helmet. I pretty much hate all of the countless suggestions for a new name. They're horrible. I'd prefer it have no name. Obviously, Burgundy & Gold remain the colors.

 

I am a Wizards fan too. I think "Wizards" is the worst name in professional sports but I still root for the team, but it kind of still annoys me they changed from a perfectly fine name to the worst name in sports. I don't want that happening to another team I root for. Washington FC would allow the name Redskins to live on in the minds of fans and we'd also be unique. It's also a not-so-subtle "**** you" to the whiners.

 

Sadly, I'm confident the name change is going to happen when the FCC approves because just like any department in the government, they have nothing better to do. NFL cannot allow a football team to be censored, forcing Snyder to fold. When we do change names, I want a name that has nothing to do with native indians, animals or washington. Get new colors. Distance overself as far away from the natives as we can get.

 

I'm tired of fighting this issue because it doesn't matter if the majority of people don't mind it and that there isn't concrete evidence of it being offensive, it only matters to a select few who has nothing better to do.

 

No way to new colors! Native Americans don't own the colors Burgundy & Gold. That would be a new level of absurd if the whiners lobbied to have the colors changed too. It is a fantastic color combination and we have one of the best uniforms in professional sports, which is one of the few things we can be proud of currently.

[ABQCOWBOY]

That's been my response to anybody who has issues with the Annenberg poll: Don't like that poll? Run another one.

(Me, I think it's a pretty safe bet that opinions have changed, over 10 years. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the "percent offended" has doubled. And I have argued that, if that's the case, then it's time to be working on the exit strategy, because movements like that tend to snowball, and you don't want to be seen the way southern segregationists are, fighting for something even after society has decided that it's wrong).

 

 

In all fairness, I think that other polls have been conducted but I'm not at all sure that they have been as highly publicized and it's hard to say if they actually have been inclusive enough.   Doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things.   I would not be surprised if the percentage offended has gone up in the last 10 years but even if that is the case, it still doesn't mean that, whatever that percentage is, is representative of how the country actually feels.   I mean, it might be but it might not be either.   If the percentage was 10% ten years ago and it's doubled, that's still far short of a majority, as I'm sure you know.  

 

This is really why the Federal Government has no place in matters such as this.   You can not act on incomplete data, especially when the ramifications of such a decision could have such far reaching effects on America as a whole.   Not just from a social aspect but from a financial one as well.   If this happens, you are giving over a huge amount of power to the Federal Government IMO.   That's a really, really dangerous street to head down.

 

That's not how the system was designed to work.

[Bonez3]

Ignorant people that one poster on this thread has come to meet (which I feel is unfortunate) .

I understand Codeorama's claims in this thread. But outside of even him, it's an antiquated word and benign at its origin and even 'represented a POSITIVE relationship between whites and Indians' per Goddard's paper.

For the last hundred years or so it meant a Football team.

[Fan since a Fetus]

Guys, I'm sorry if this has already been addressed, this is a very long thread and I can't read it all.

That is understandable, but yes everything has been answered in your post. In short, no one really agrees with how to handle any of it. One person likes an idea, another person doesn't. That is the way it will go even if a name change is forced. There will be a lot of disagreement no matter how this is handled.

[Kosher Ham]

So is Viking ? Buccaneer ?

 

 

Hmm...

[grego]

I am disappointed in the people that have allowed their opinions to be manipulated with the absence of facts.  It is really disheartening.  I don't even know that disappointed is the correct word.  It is more than that.  It is very troubling to me.  This goes beyond the name change of a football team now.  This is more of a disappointment in society as a whole.  I think overall, this will make me a better person just because I will devote more time to researching a subject rather than following because I think I agree. 

 

 

couldnt have said it better. 

[Bonez3]

Very well put Fan S.A.F.

I can be pretty objective and if the scalp theory were common knowledge and well documented, than I actually would support change.

But the facts seem overwhelming it is no more offensive than Indian or Brave or Chief.

If, however, the collective NAs wanted to remove imagery and reference from mascots, than ok. BUT ALL GO. I actually would be sympathetic to that, but tying the hitch to only Redskin is misguided based on what I've read.