JMS's Chronology of the Bengazi Raid and "cover-up"

[twa]

If Al Qeada or people associated with them would be waiting for re-enforcements coming to the Benghazi annex, then sending in said re-enforcements would have likely resulted in their death and then people would be rightfully criticizing Obama for their deaths.

And people wouldn't be making stupid comments like 'well, he deserves an A for effort" or not an A for effort at those people's funerals.

How's that for avoiding the subject for you?

any evidence to that?

why would that not apply to those that did respond?....the notion it is too dangerous for special forces,yet not for others seems suspect.

I can tell you how the special forces would vote, as would they if the gag is removed

[DjTj]

I can tell you how the special forces would vote, as would they if the gag is removed

Sometimes it's the coach's job to bench a player even when they want to play.

Merge: http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?378477-How-is-RGIII

[twa]

Sometimes it's the coach's job to bench a player even when they want to play.

certainly, but benching your star usually comes with a explanation.

and a loss raises many questions

[Stadium-Armory]

Nobody's suggesting that mistakes weren't made. The issue is that the republicans in congress are choosing to scream scandal instead of pursuing a methodical investigation based on facts. They passed go and went straight to "cover up", deciding to ignore the systemic problem with embassy security, instead choosing to focus on "who knew what when". Its a slap in the face of those who gave their lives, and it does a great disservice to our country. We rely on them to hold the administration accountable and to uncover areas of opportunity for improvement. This type of witch hunt based on speculation doesn't do anything to make the situation better.

If they were to pursue an open and honest line of questioning, something good might have come of it. Sadly, not.

[DjTj]

certainly, but benching your star usually comes with a explanation.

and a loss raises many questions

My point is the two situations are very comparable. But no hue and cry. So silly to berate Shanny for Seattle while giving a pass for Baltimore. My POV is we should all stop second guessing and look forward.

[LadySkinsFan]

Four people against the thousands that have been killed and maimed in Iraq, all because a stupid frat boy and his warmongering self-selected VP wanted to invade a sovereign nation based on lies. No WMD, No Al Queda connection, billions nay probably trillions of US taxpayer dollars spent on a useless unnecessary war. And let's not forget torture. Bush and company are very lucky that the incoming Obama administration didn't have them all prosecuted for treason.

[PeterMP]

certainly, but benching your star usually comes with a explanation.

and a loss raises many questions

I don't know all of the details and why decisions were made the way they were, but the fact of the matter is neither does anybody else in this thread.

.

In addition, this isn't that uncommon. For example, a report from Congress on Tora Bora was only issued in 2009 and even then the report comes from a committee in the Senate meaning we (the general public and even many members of Congress) still don't know why certain decisions were made and what real evidence there was in support of making those decisions.

http://www.foreign.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/Tora_Bora_Report.pdf

I'm still unsure why the Marines were "benched" for Tora Bora. I'm sure they would have loved in on the hunt to get Bin Laden.

To suggest that in what was essentially a battle field that a year afterwards we (the general public) don't have the details we'd like in terms of troop deployment is evidence of a cover up or a white wash is not credibile based on history.

[twa]

Nobody's suggesting that mistakes weren't made. The issue is that the republicans in congress are choosing to scream scandal instead of pursuing a methodical investigation based on facts. They passed go and went straight to "cover up", deciding to ignore the systemic problem with embassy security, instead choosing to focus on "who knew what when". Its a slap in the face of those who gave their lives, and it does a great disservice to our country. We rely on them to hold the administration accountable and to uncover areas of opportunity for improvement. This type of witch hunt based on speculation doesn't do anything to make the situation better.

If they were to pursue an open and honest line of questioning, something good might have come of it. Sadly, not.

The review board covered the appalling lack of embassy security and addressed the how and why of that already.

you want them to do it again?

IF we had the transparency promised instead of obstruction you might be right.

IF some measure of progress against those responsible were evident you might be right.

[PeterMP]

The review board covered the appalling lack of embassy security and addressed the how and why of that already.

you want them to do it again?

IF we had the transparency promised instead of obstruction you might be right.

IF some measure of progress against those responsible were evident you might be right.

What happened to Charlene Lamb?

[deejaydana]

That piece from ABC this morning seems pretty damning about how the talking points were scrubbed repeatedly. I don't want to believe this was done to simply downplay the event given the date of this incident relative to the election but this is Obama afterall. It's completely within keeping in how he runs his show. I don't want to run down the same partisan path though (though we're all guilty of doing that to various degrees and I'm not above it at times as well) , this is just a black eye for America's foreign policy imho. Will the public move on from this? Most likely they will. Both sides will either amplify or minimize this event and its aftermath cause that's simply how the game is played in the Beltway.

[Tulane Skins Fan]

That piece from ABC this morning seems pretty damning about how the talking points were scrubbed repeatedly. I don't want to believe this was done to simply downplay the event given the date of this incident relative to the election but this is Obama afterall. It's completely within keeping in how he runs his show. I don't want to run down the same partisan path though (though we're all guilty of doing that to various degrees and I'm not above it at times as well) , this is just a black eye for America's foreign policy imho. Will the public move on from this? Most likely they will. Both sides will either amplify or minimize this event and its aftermath cause that's simply how the game is played in the Beltway.

What is it about talking points being edited that people think is damning? I don't get that at all. Maybe I'm missing something, but is there some rule that the State Department can't edit documents from the CIA based upon what they know, etc? First draft is final draft? That's just silly.

You know what we need to add to the timeline of this story: how pathetic this is all is. The real story here is how pathetic the GOP has become in trying so desperately to pin a scandal on someone associated with the White House.

[twa]

What happened to Charlene Lamb?

Changed jobs?

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/benghazi_penalties_are_bogus_ncP7RZx5uTIgDPbTp5WtoN?utm_medium=rss&utm_content=International

I was referring to the terrorists, but if ya want to explore State Dept musical chairs we can

[deejaydana]

What is it about talking points being edited that people think is damning? I don't get that at all. Maybe I'm missing something, but is there some rule that the State Department can't edit documents from the CIA based upon what they know, etc? First draft is final draft? That's just silly.

You know what we need to add to the timeline of this story: how pathetic this is all is. The real story here is how pathetic the GOP has become in trying so desperately to pin a scandal on someone associated with the White House.

I don't know if I hold onto partisanship as zealously as you do. I know I don't know the entire story but pinning the attack upon a video was, well, at the least it was an incredibly amateurish move. I've come to expect that from Obama though. I know both parties are looking bad by clinging to party here, the whole things just makes me look down on many members of each side.

[PeterMP]

I don't know if I hold onto partisanship as zealously as you do. I know I don't know the entire story but pinning the attack upon a video was, well, at the least it was an incredibly amateurish move. I've come to expect that from Obama though. I know both parties are looking bad by clinging to party here, the whole things just makes me look down on many members of each side.

Go back and read the ABC report again.

The FIRST sentence of the FIRST version of the talking points document from the CIA talked about it being the result of spontaneous protest:

http://abcnews.go.com/images/Politics/Benghazi%20Talking%20Points%20Timeline.pdf

(That's why it is key to WrongDirection's story line that the WH and Clinton were involved that first day and night so they would have even influenced that document.)

---------- Post added May-10th-2013 at 03:25 PM ----------

Changed jobs?

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/benghazi_penalties_are_bogus_ncP7RZx5uTIgDPbTp5WtoN?utm_medium=rss&utm_content=International

I was referring to the terrorists, but if ya want to explore State Dept musical chairs we can

Ah, I see now you don't just want detailed information on troop deployments shortly after the fact, but up-to-date intelligence on active intellengence operations.

[Bang]

Did the review board take a roll call of how each of them voted on funding embassy security?

Seems to me if you want to call the security appalling, OK, that's fair, But then accountability needs to be addressed properly. As we all know and are told over and over, the President doesn't vote to fund things.

This whole thing is a waste of time. We are weak, squabbling children.

no wonder little pissant terrorists think they can knock us over.

We ought to be ashamed to be a people behaving like this.

~Bang

[twa]

Ah, I see now you don't just want detailed information on troop deployments shortly after the fact, but up-to-date intelligence on active intellengence operations.

What I want is the heads of the terrorists that killed and abused our people on pikes.

after 8 months I instead get deflections

Add

Bang....funding was not the problem per the State dept

but keep deflecting

[Tulane Skins Fan]

I don't know if I hold onto partisanship as zealously as you do. I know I don't know the entire story but pinning the attack upon a video was, well, at the least it was an incredibly amateurish move. I've come to expect that from Obama though. I know both parties are looking bad by clinging to party here, the whole things just makes me look down on many members of each side.

You are much more partisan than I. There are a lot of things about Obama that I don't like at all. Things that I wish he were a lot different on.

But, there is nothing here but GOP anger that Obama won another election. That's all it is.

The story has changed so much too. The GOP doesn't even know what they are upset about. They are just going from one irrational outrage to another on this.

[Spaceman Spiff]

You are much more partisan than I. There are a lot of things about Obama that I don't like at all. Things that I wish he were a lot different on.

But, there is nothing here but GOP anger that Obama won another election. That's all it is.

The story has changed so much too. The GOP doesn't even know what they are upset about. They are just going from one irrational outrage to another on this.

I'm not as political as a lot of people on here, but as an outsider looking in, this seems to be the case. I certainly don't care for Obama but it seems like the right wingers will look for something/anything/everything to do whatever it takes to embarrass him.

Gotta wonder if it was a GOP president what the liberals would be saying though. A role reversal here would be interesting.

Anyone wanna guess what the reaction would be here if this was Bush and not Obama?

[TheItalianStallion]

Four people against the thousands that have been killed and maimed in Iraq, all because a stupid frat boy and his warmongering self-selected VP wanted to invade a sovereign nation based on lies. No WMD, No Al Queda connection, billions nay probably trillions of US taxpayer dollars spent on a useless unnecessary war. And let's not forget torture. Bush and company are very lucky that the incoming Obama administration didn't have them all prosecuted for treason.

Multiple investigations concluded otherwise. And peppering your posts with comments like "stupid frat boy" doesn't help your case.

[Wrong Direction]

You are much more partisan than I. There are a lot of things about Obama that I don't like at all. Things that I wish he were a lot different on.

But, there is nothing here but GOP anger that Obama won another election. That's all it is.

The story has changed so much too. The GOP doesn't even know what they are upset about. They are just going from one irrational outrage to another on this.

Yes, politics are part of this on both sides. That's Washington. It's part of it, but it doesn't invalidate the complaints. The anger on the right is related to politics, but there is substance behind it. The substance is two fold.

1. The President or someone in his chain of command violated the military principal of "Leave no man behind." We were under attack, could have responded, and some decision maker left our Ambassador and 3 others to be killed (2 of which where SEALs who inserted themselves against orders precisely because they wouldn't leave Americans behind).

2. Then we created a lie to hide the fact that that decision was made.

Yes, it is potentially defensible not to respond in a military manner. However, it's political suicide for a President to leave those people there to be slaughtered. There's speculation about bloody handprints on the walls of the compound, as if the Ambassador was really brutalized. We don't know that either, because the nature of his death has not been declassified (going by memory on this part...but sure I've heard it as speculation, not fact).

All we know is someone left him there, but we don't know who and the left wants to act like that question isn't relevant.

[TheItalianStallion]

I'm not as political as a lot of people on here, but as an outsider looking in, this seems to be the case. I certainly don't care for Obama but it seems like the right wingers will look for something/anything/everything to do whatever it takes to embarrass him.

Gotta wonder if it was a GOP president what the liberals would be saying though. A role reversal here would be interesting.

Anyone wanna guess what the reaction would be here if this was Bush and not Obama?

The left would be worse, if anything. Look at Plamegate: a woman who worked behind a desk in northern VA gets "outed" and the left goes bonkers, stating that the Bush admin put the life of a "covert agent" in danger.

I don't know if the Obama admin is guilty of any serious wrongdoing beyond pretty standard politician BSing, but there is no doubt that the left would've been up in arms if the roles were reversed.

[Tulane Skins Fan]

The left would be worse, if anything. Look at Plamegate: a woman who worked behind a desk in northern VA gets "outed" and the left goes bonkers, stating that the Bush admin put the life of a "covert agent" in danger.

I don't know if the Obama admin is guilty of any serious wrongdoing beyond pretty standard politician BSing, but there is no doubt that the left would've been up in arms if the roles were reversed.

I agree the left would be upset too, but I'm not sure they'd be as relentless as the house GOP has been.

Valerie Plame is a good comparison, actually.

First of all, didn't Scooter Libby get convicted of violating federal law in relation to that claim? Isn't that a bigger scandal?

Second, were there really as many hearings for Valerie Plame as there have been for Benghazi? (I don't know the answer to this question.)

And third, isn't that what we know happened, i.e. that someone in the White House administration outed a covert agent due to her husband's bad press?

[PeterMP]

The left would be worse, if anything. Look at Plamegate: a woman who worked behind a desk in northern VA gets "outed" and the left goes bonkers, stating that the Bush admin put the life of a "covert agent" in danger.

I don't know if the Obama admin is guilty of any serious wrongdoing beyond pretty standard politician BSing, but there is no doubt that the left would've been up in arms if the roles were reversed.

I actually went back and looked at the Tora Bora and the reports. There isn't a single case as near as I can tell of somebody sitting in Congress calling the resultant action (where a Congressional report wasn't issued until about 8 years after the events) a "cover up".

I think the Plame thing was different in that it was a political response to a CRIMINAL political event (the leaking of her name being political in the first case).

[twa]

Why do you compare Tora Bora to Benghazi?

because of failure or something else

[JMS]

I don't know if the Obama admin is guilty of any serious wrongdoing beyond pretty standard politician BSing, but there is no doubt that the left would've been up in arms if the roles were reversed.

I hate hate hate... offsetting penalties.... Yeah sure X is acting like swine, but you know Y would do the same thing... I think the democrats have acted like petulant children before... Hell they may have even invented it. But I really can't remember when the last time they did it was. They've been a pretty honest and strident group for a pretty long time... And I'll tell you the GOP hasn't followed suit... not even close. What is that Will Rodgers line... I don't belong to an organized political party; I'm a Democrat. chalk it up to good taste, or a maturity, or just political incompetence... I don't think the Democats on the hill hit the GOP on all the stupid stuff which went on in the lead up to the Iraq War as the GOP had executed on this Benghazi fiasco. Nor the 2008 financial crisis, Nor Afghanistan.... Nor 9/11, Nor even Katrina.. All of those showed real GOP incompetence at work. Their entire self fulfilling philosophy about the government can do no right. The country loosing it's AAA rating entirely because of house Republicans idiocy? I wish the Democrats had the ability and disipline to organize around an issue and drive it home like the republicans continuously do.

This entire line of reasoning which justifies continued support of these idiots just has no traction with me. When you see one party consistently being idiots... you just simple must hold your nose and support the other party for a period of time until the idiots get the message. If you don't then you just get more idiocy and the country is denied a viable alternative for that much longer.