Mike knows offense, but....

[Thegiantduckman]

---------- Post added October-24th-2012 at 04:52 AM ----------

[/color]His argumentative BS trumps my objection to it? Why?

---------- Post added October-24th-2012 at 05:05 AM ----------

your response is the response of a man who lost an argument and cant admit it because their ego is too big

[Jumbo]

your response is the response of a man who lost an argument and cant admit it because their ego is too big

This kind of post and similar ones in this thread, especially when containing nothing of topical nature, that include a personalized castigation of some overall characterization of a member (the underlined phrase), are of the nature that can get a poster banned for a week.

People concerned with best ways to avoid such possibilities should learn such things. Reading rule 5 carefully might help.

[Burgold]

Its a mystery to me why Grossman is still on the team.

-Hail

From what we are hearing in the background, it seems pretty clear that Grossman is on the team this year as a quarterbacks coach and been there mentor. Apparently, Grossman has been in RGIII ear a lot and has helped him. In a way, it's not surprising... you could often tell that Grossman knew what to do, but just didn't have the arm or the athleticism to get it done. That's why he kept making mistakes. He knew what to do, tried to do it, but couldn't.

[darrelgreenie]

Make him a coach, save the roster spot.

[Skinsinparadise]

Jurgensen throwing the football to Jerry Smith and Charley Taylor was fun to watch, but we were outscored half the time. I'd much prefer that such artistry on offense not be wasted once more.

To your point. for me this defense is even more frustrating to watch because the offense right now is so good. The defense is horrible, this team would be tough to stop even if they had a so so defense. Only silver lining for me is IMO the defenses short comings doesn't require a full fledged fix, its very focused on the secondary and Orkapo coming back healthy. And if its obvious to us, am sure its obvious to them. Not that I give them an out for having a terrible secondary now but I think they can fix it this off season. Ironically its a deep draft for the secondary -- they still have 8 picks in the draft, and a decent free agent class.

[Oldfan]

To your point. for me this defense is even more frustrating to watch because the offense right now is so good. The defense is horrible, this team would be tough to stop even if they had a so so defense. Only silver lining for me is IMO the defenses short comings doesn't require a full fledged fix, its very focused on the secondary and Orkapo coming back healthy. And if its obvious to us, am sure its obvious to them. Not that I give them an out for having a terrible secondary now but I think they can fix it this off season. Ironically its a deep draft for the secondary -- they still have 8 picks in the draft, and a decent free agent class.

It sounds like you are more optimistic than I am because:

a) We are going forward having given up three ones and a two in picks for Griffin. Setting aside the debate on whether that was wise, there is no doubt about the trade hurting our capability of strengthening the rest of the roster;

We took a cap penalty;

c) I don't think talent is the only problem with the defense. I think we also have poor coaching as a factor;

d) While the above is going on, our most prized team asset is running a high injury risk offense.

[daveakl]

It sounds like you are more optimistic than I am because:

a) We are going forward having given up three ones and a two in picks for Griffin. Setting aside the debate on whether that was wise, there is no doubt about the trade hurting our capability of strengthening the rest of the roster;

We took a cap penalty;

c) I don't think talent is the only problem with the defense. I think we also have poor coaching as a factor;

d) While the above is going on, our most prized team asset is running a high injury risk offense.

Silver lining:

A. Only two 1st rounders lost moving fwd.

B. After next year we will have an "extra" 18 million coming free to use.

C. New defensive coaches are easier to get then top qbs.

D. But he is learning to avoid those risks.

[Oldfan]

Silver lining:

A. Only two 1st rounders lost moving fwd.

B. After next year we will have an "extra" 18 million coming free to use.

C. New defensive coaches are easier to get then top qbs.

D. But he is learning to avoid those risks.

A. Granted

B. Granted

C."New" DCs are easy to find; Shanny hasn't been able to find a "good" one in 16 years

D: Correction; he is learning to avoid some of those risks.

[daveakl]

A. Granted

B. Granted

C."New" DCs are easy to find; Shanny hasn't been able to find a "good" one in 16 years

D: Correction; he is learning to avoid some of those risks.

Please clarify, what high injury risks is he not learning to avoid?

[Oldfan]

Please clarify, what high injury risks is he not learning to avoid?

QBs, by rule, are protected in the pocket. Therefore, pocket passers like Brady and Manning take minimal risk. Any QB who routinely leaves the pocket is running a greater risk -- and a QB who runs quite a bit, as Griffin does, has a much greater risk of injury than the pocket passers.

[daveakl]

QBs, by rule, are protected in the pocket. Therefore, pocket passers like Brady and Manning take minimal risk. Any QB who routinely leaves the pocket is running a greater risk -- and QBs who run quite a bit, as Griffin does, is taking much greater risk of injury than the pocket passers.

Fair enough. But you stated that he is not learning to avoid some of those risks. Perhaps I should have phrased my question better. What risks do you see rgiii not learning to avoid? For example, in the game against cincinnati we all watched him take hits after the pitch when running the option. In the game against Atlanta we saw him try to get the extra yard and extend the play only to get knocked out of the game. In each case he has adjusted his style a bit so that he is no longer taking the hard hit after a pitch nor fighting for the extra yard/extending the play and risking his body.

[Oldfan]

Fair enough. But you stated that he is not learning to avoid some of those risks. Perhaps I should have phrased my question better. What risks do you see rgiii not learning to avoid? For example, in the game against cincinnati we all watched him take hits after the pitch when running the option. In the game against Atlanta we saw him try to get the extra yard and extend the play only to get knocked out of the game. In each case he has adjusted his style a bit so that he is no longer taking the hard hit after a pitch nor fighting for the extra yard/extending the play and risking his body.

You are asking for specifics that are impossible to give. If you understand that it is impossible for RG3 to avoid ALL the added risk that a running QB takes on, then you should understand my correction that " he is learning to avoid SOME of those risks."

EDIT: I just realized that you probably misunderstood my remark. I didn't realize there were two ways to take it.

[Skinsinparadise]

It sounds like you are more optimistic than I am .

They were a decent but not elite defense last year. I don't think its a stretch for them to get back there. if they had last years defense which granted wasn't elite, they'd likely be 5-2 this year. Signing and drafting a corner and safety doesn't IMO seem to be a tall order.

We are going forward having given up three ones and a two in picks for Griffin. Setting aside the debate on whether that was wise, there is no doubt about the trade hurting our capability of strengthening the rest of the roster; .

They have 8 picks next draft, with Vinny we mostly became accustomed to we got the first round to find a player and the rest of the draft are likely to be backups or busts. It hasn't been that problem under Shanny -- and with 6 draft picks from the 2nd round through the fifth round, am sure they can find a corner and safety, right now its looking like a rare deep draft for safety.

We took a cap penalty; .

Inspite of it, they are still under the cap this year, they don't front load contracts Vinny style so Allen for his faults is forward thinking with contracts. If I recall if you dump J. Brown, D. Hall, S. Moss -- that alone frees up a lot of room

I don't think talent is the only problem with the defense. I think we also have poor coaching as a factor;

It was interesting Don Banks was asked this morning on the radio about Haslett's rep. he said its average -- people don't think he's one of the better coordinators and ditto not one of the worst ones either. Yeah it would be great to get an above average coordinator, Assuming you are talking Haslett on defense and not Shanny on offense?

[daveakl]

You are asking for specifics that are impossible to give. If you understand that it is impossible for RG3 to avoid ALL the added risk that a running QB takes on, then you should understand my correction that " he is learning to avoid SOME of those risks."

Maybe there is the problem then. I believe it is possible for the qb to learn to avoid the added risks. Since you are unable to give an example of one he is not learning to avoid I must believe that your mind has been changed also.

Back to the original thread topic. What are your thoughts on bill belichick and his time in NE. Would it be fair to say he does not do a good job with his defensive coaching hires and personal and that side of the ball has dragged down his teams?

[Oldfan]

They were a decent but not elite defense last year. I don't think its a stretch for them to get back there. if they had last years defense which granted wasn't elite, they'd likely be 5-2 this year. Signing and drafting a corner and safety doesn't IMO seem to be a tall order.

They have 8 picks next draft, with Vinny we mostly became accustomed to we got the first round to find a player and the rest of the draft are likely to be backups or busts. It hasn't been that problem under Shanny -- and with 6 draft picks from the 2nd round through the fifth round, am sure they can find a corner and safety, right now its looking like a rare deep draft for safety.

Inspite of it, they are still under the cap this year, they don't front load contracts Vinny style so Allen for his faults is forward thinking with contracts. If I recall if you dump J. Brown, D. Hall, S. Moss -- that alone frees up a lot of room

It was interesting Don Banks was asked this morning on the radio about Haslett's rep. he said its average -- people don't think he's one of the better coordinators and ditto not one of the worst ones either. Yeah it would be great to get an above average coordinator, Assuming you are talking Haslett on defense and not Shanny on offense?

Aside from the RB position, and one WR (Brandon Marshall) -- I can't, off the top, think of a high caliber starter, found by Shanahan in his drafts below the first round. So, I don't share your confidence in him.

You say the 2013 draft will be deep in safeties. But, how often do NFL scouts agree with the draftniks who create the mocks?

Shanny's offense might be partly responsible for the lower ranking defense. The opening drive against the Giants was 19 plays of ball control. That's unusual for Mike's teams. Lack of ball control on the offense can make a defense look worse than it really is.

Also, a very agressive defense will get more takeaways, but it will also be burned more often. If Mike wants his D very agressive D, then the result is higher scoring games which make the defense look bad.

---------- Post added October-26th-2012 at 01:50 PM ----------

Maybe there is the problem then. I believe it is possible for the qb to learn to avoid the added risks. Since you are unable to give an example of one he is not learning to avoid I must believe that your mind has been changed also.

That's not a reasonable deduction at all. You asked a question impossible to answer because the situations that expose a running QB to injury are nearly endless.

EDIT: I just noticed that now you are saying that I could not even provide an example. Well, that's because you didn't ask for an example. You asked for a list which is endless.

Here's an example: When running QBs run, they are likely to get tackled by bigger people -- which adds risk when compared to QBs who don't run.

Back to the original thread topic. What are your thoughts on bill belichick and his time in NE. Would it be fair to say he does not do a good job with his defensive coaching hires and personal and that side of the ball has dragged down his teams?

I haven't researched Belichik's coaching history as I did with Shanahan so I can't answer your question. Why do you ask?

[daveakl]

That's not a reasonable deduction at all. You asked a question impossible to answer because the situations that expose a running QB to injury are nearly endless.

No, you edited what I said from he is learning to avoid those risks to he is learning to avoid some of those risks. Since you are the one challenging what I am saying the onus would be on you to provide at least some examples of risks he is not learning to avoid.

One of the main points in your first post was that "Since the offense and defense are equally important, his defenses have been dragging down the quality of his teams over the past 16 years." I was wondering if you felt that if Bill Belichick had a similar low DVOA average over the last 10 years in NE (which could be argued as one of the most successful decades during the free agency era) that his defense was dragged his success down.

[Oldfan]

No, you edited what I said from he is learning to avoid those risks to he is learning to avoid some of those risks. Since you are the one challenging what I am saying the onus would be on you to provide at least some examples of risks he is not learning to avoid.

You didn't ask for examples. This was your request: What risks do you see rgiii not learning to avoid? That's asking for a list.-- it is not asking for examples.

In a previous post, I edited in an obvious example of a situation that happens several times a game.

One of the main points in your first post was that "Since the offense and defense are equally important, his defenses have been dragging down the quality of his teams over the past 16 years." I was wondering if you felt that if Bill Belichick had a similar low DVOA average over the last 10 years in NE (which could be argued as one of the most successful decades during the free agency era) that his defense was dragged his success down.

So, you are trying to undermine a premise of my argument by offering a hypothetical that probably could not happen?

[Saqs]

Doesn't matter who you have as DC if you dont have the talent. Look at king Bellichick the last couple years for a good eye opening example.

[Rabsuz]

Mike Shanahan's offenses have ranked #9 on the average DVOA while his defenses have ranked #18.

I would kill for an 18th ranked defense right now.

[skinsmania123]

Not in the secondary.

I agree with you and on top of that how many of these current guys would be starting if we had the guys we thought we were going to have back there?

[planter]

Yes, we can say the acclaimed offensive guru is who tbey said he was...

BUT he needs a. good DC , scouts, and the capspace/will to acquire defensive draft picks and free agents .

[daveakl]

You didn't ask for examples. This was your request: What risks do you see rgiii not learning to avoid? That's asking for a list.-- it is not asking for examples.

In a previous post, I edited in an obvious example of a situation that happens several times a game.

So, you are trying to undermine a premise of my argument by offering a hypothetical that probably could not happen?

I apologize for the confusion, I was not asking for a specific list, I was looking for examples of risks that RGIII was not learning to avoid. Can you point me to the previous post? There are 7 pages of posts now.

No, I am simply asking that if Bilichicks DVOA was in the 14-17 range would you say his defense dragged down their success over the past decade.

[Oldfan]

Doesn't matter who you have as DC if you dont have the talent. Look at king Bellichick the last couple years for a good eye opening example.

True. But like Shanahan, Bill has full control, so the imbalance is his fault whether the problem is coaching , personnel, or a combination of both.

[Jericho]

At least Shanahan is an offensive "guru". I find it funny that Brian Billick, a supposed Offensive genius, head coached Baltimore - a team known for terrible offense and an awesome defense. Bill Belichick is another defensive guy who's had a horrible D in New England for years. Or even Tony Dungy. A great D guy for Tampa, but Indianapolis always sucked on D (although they at least did not spend much on D and managed to ride one Bob Sanders hot streak to a Super Bowl). Football does not always make sense.

[Oldfan]

I apologize for the confusion, I was not asking for a specific list, I was looking for examples of risks that RGIII was not learning to avoid. Can you point me to the previous post? There are 7 pages of posts now.

This is the most obvious example and one which happens several times a game: When running QBs run, they are likely to get tackled by bigger people -- which adds risk when compared to QBs who don't run.

No, I am simply asking that if Bilichicks DVOA was in the 14-17 range would you say his defense dragged down their success over the past decade.

If that was the case, then yes -- he could have had even greater success had his defense averaged a ranking of 4-6 on the DVOA over the same span.