Should Kyle still be calling our plays on offense?

[skins island connection]

I am not the biggest Kyle fan by any stretch; IMO his experience in the NFL doesn't really qualify him to be an OC, BUT;

I will admit he has gotten better, and its not the playcalling so much as the execution, or lack of for that matter, thats the problem. Watch certain receivers on plays; half-ass running routes, not attempting to sell the route one bit when they know the ball isn't coming their way. Hankerson is guilty of this alot.

Of course receivers actually 'catching' the ball would help too, as well as getting open and not running INTO coverage. With a less than good o-line on passing downs, there's only so much time to hold the ball, and at some point RGIII has to either move or run out of the pocket; as he does this, you see alot of receivers more or less stop to see whats going on.

Its still a very young season, and things can change in an instant; i'm not expecting it quickly, but there are other obvious changes that need to be made, but Kyle's playcalling isn't one of them...yet...

SIC

[KCClybun]

Pretty sure your sarcasm meter just failed you.

.

Sorry, im on my phone and trying to weed through the crazy.

[DCsportsfan53]

Sorry, im on my phone and trying to weed through the crazy.

Don't have to look hard to find that, it's everywhere you look.

[grego]

Threads like this reassure me that im not going crazy. Not yet anyway.

It seems like every week there are the strangest calls. A few posters really hit the nail on the head with some of the head scratchers.

Put me down for not getting why people go nuts when you question his calls. Then again, the same thing happened with haynesworth and mcnabb

[Duckus]

Maybe so, but I've felt that way since day one. Your obviously entitled to your own opinion, and I respect it, but Kyle S is and has been in way over his head.

From day one you had an opinion. You formulated a negative opinion on KS before he even coached a pre-season game. Based on your own words, you never gave him a chance.

[PorkSkins]

I for one am not onboard for giving the Shananigans a free ride this year. The dad found a gem in Morris and bet the farm on RGIII. Both dad and son neglected to go after quality offensive lineman. RGIII had been lucky to this point and it was only a matter of time before he was going to get knocked out. I don't want another MV. I hope he learned his lesson and makes better choices. We aren't going to win many games with a running QB.

[Duckus]

You know what,I can't deny it anymore. This fanbase has gone full retard

The scary part is the scale. After any loss there are a handful a retards. Today it seems like hundreds.

[MustangSteve]

Kyle's hiring has smacked of nepotism from day one; I've seen nothing during his tenure here to suggest he should be our O-coordinator, We have been among the worst in the league on 3rd down during his tenure. But, more fundamentally, he seems to have no real feel for the flow of the game, which is something that any NFL caliber playcaller should possess in spades. I'm not calling for his head, because it isn't realistic to think anything will change, but I don't think he's the right man for the job, and I think Mike S. made a bad move bringing his son in.

:applause:

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

I don't really like the play calling we've had for all of Mike's tenure here. They tend to get away from things that work, and try to be too cute with quick screens, end arounds, and sometimes the often/read dive offensive looks this year. If you look at the way we were running the ball you have to wonder why we weren't going heavy with a mix of playaction bootlegs today. There were two I remember and one of them was the injury play which came at what? 3rd and 7 or 8? The purpose of a bootleg is simple: you are somewhat effective calling in on 1st down, 2nd and less than 6, or 3rd and short. That is about it. I don't know why we would bother playfaking and rolling out a QB on 3rd and long when they know we're passing and we would have to be idiots to run the ball. When we're breaking off 4,5,6+ yards each run and gashing a defense like that, we should always be going to a play action boot on 2nd and medium/short. We should almost always be running out of 3 WR or 2WR 2 TE single back sets. This gives us a lot of flexability when it comes to showing a team the same look and running a different play out of it. Why would we run a run 5 times out of one formation and then run our pass out of a different one? I saw plenty of that today as well. Also on these playaction passes we should almost always be sending somebody deep on either a deep cross or post and give the QB 2 other short options minimum. With the way we were running today there is no reason why we couldn't come out, run Morris to the left and fake a boot for 6 yards, come out on 2nd down and run a similar run play bootleg with Pierre Garcon doing a deep cross from left to right. The way their safeties were sticking their noses into the box after Morris was gashing them we likely could have hit on some big ones and if we didn't and completed for a 1st down to Fred Davis underneath, come back out the next play and run a similar pattern on 1st down and see if we can get it.

It just seems we're doing obvious things in obvious situations, and then when a situation calls for us to do the obvious thing, to not **** around, and to just get the tough yards the old fashioned way, that's usually when we get cute with some stupid play that takes a lot of effort to ultimately do nothing.

Even though I strongly support Kyle and I think most of the people who call for his head are morons, I believe this is a VERY valid critique of Kyle's performance as an OC and playcaller, summed up with these words: We get too cute. There's a great deal to be said for just making the safe, obvious, common sense play, but I think Kyle Shanahan basically outsmarts himself at times and tries to dial up a flashy, complex play that doesn't really work out. Kyle needs to know just *WHEN* to bust out the fakes and the trickery, and to know when to keep it simple and ride the hot hand until it goes cold. Kyle needs to know that a 2nd and 5 should dictate, as the above says, a 2 TE 2 WR set or something along those lines where you can either go PA or just run it for a 3rd and short.

Kyle is a young OC still - he's only been in the NFL since 2004, and an OC since 2008. The guy is all of 32 years old. I think he's already a brilliant schemer and has designed an effective and creative offense with lots of tools and weapons in the arsenal. His offenses have generally been effective, especially in the passing game. But he needs to learn when to use what on a more consistent basis.

[Commander Chaaarmnder]

The answer you're looking for is YES.

Yeah pretty much, stupid thread can we get a nnt? Hell yeah?

[Hitman21ST]

Well Alfred Morris has a 6.1 YPC average. No throws down field until Cousins is in. Josh Morgan not being thrown to. That direct snap to the meat of the offensive line knowing our strength is to Trent's side.......Bush league play calling if you ask me. Seems to me that RG3 being such a great athlete tends to mask Kyle's deficiencies. Where is another Gary Kubiak when you need him.......

You do realize you can't just keep calling plays to one side of the field, right? Nor can you just call for a "throw downfield" whenever you feel like it. You call plays off of what looks the defense gives you, and if they're giving you the underneath stuff, then you call those plays.

My guess is the Falcons knew of RG3's strengths (deep throws, etc), so they gameplan to take that away. Therefore Kyle calls more runs and shorter passes. Then when Cousins came in, the defense started stacking the box, making Cousins throw it to beat them. He did just that, so they drop back again. You'll notice that Morris couldn't run until that throw to Moss was completed, then when they dropped back he immediately broke another long one?

[KCClybun]

People don't realize teams play Robert completely different from how you usually play rookie quarterbacks.

You know the old adage about how you blitz quarterbacks and try to confuse them with different looks? That's not how teams are playing Robert. He's one of the least blitzed quarterbacks in the league right now.

Teams are rushing four or five at most and dropping everyone else. When teams blitz RG3, he either kills them on the ground or, usually, with his arm. If you were a defensive coordinator, would you want to blitz and leave a receiver one on one on a quarterback with the kind of deep accuracy RG3 has?

The reason we're not seeing as much deep stuff is because teams are taking away the deep throws and making Robert drive the length of the field. And I'll add that Robert does a pretty damn good job of leading us down the field. The reason the third down stuff hasn't been there is part safe play calling, and part having a quarterback who knows it's better to punt sometimes than to throw an INT. The two picks Kirk threw were plays Robert wouldn't make. And I'm not knockin' Kirk, he's always been that guy. But Robert's always been good about protecting the football. If we had a kicker worth a **** it'd help.

Kyle's called some awesome games these last few weeks and if you can't see that, that's your problem.

[DaSkinzBaby]

You do realize you can't just keep calling plays to one side of the field, right? Nor can you just call for a "throw downfield" whenever you feel like it. You call plays off of what looks the defense gives you, and if they're giving you the underneath stuff, then you call those plays.

My guess is the Falcons knew of RG3's strengths (deep throws, etc), so they gameplan to take that away. Therefore Kyle calls more runs and shorter passes. Then when Cousins came in, the defense started stacking the box, making Cousins throw it to beat them. He did just that, so they drop back again. You'll notice that Morris couldn't run until that throw to Moss was completed, then when they dropped back he immediately broke another long one?

Good points but the one thing I didn't agree with is our not using Banks in the backfield today. That formation presents so many problems. I think more than anything especially today Kyle's playcalling was that of a man in over his head and playing scared. Let the reigns go and let RG3 do what he does best. Pass the ball down field.......

[KCClybun]

Good points but the one thing I didn't agree with is our not using Banks in the backfield today. That formation presents so many problems. I think more than anything especially today Kyle's playcalling was that of a man in over his head and playing scared. Let the reigns go and let RG3 do what he does best. Pass the ball down field.......

You mean the triple option?

You mean the formation that two weeks ago everyone was screaming about how Kyle was getting Robert killed by running him too much?

And again; there was probably no one OPEN down the field. I know we're used to crappy quarterback play, but typically, ya don't throw down field unless you actually, ya know...have a guy open!

Part of what's killing the Saints and the Packers is their insistence on trying to take the top off the defense instead of going on methodical drives and setting up the deep throws via play action in the run game and getting everyone to crowd the box. Teams rush four and drop 7 into coverage, particularly deep.

It's not that we're not calling deep plays; we run play action looking for the deep shot a lot. What's happening is defenses know and are scared of Robert's ability to throw it deep, so they force him to throw it short or intermediate.

He's not a man in over his head. He's got a quarterback teams are actually scared to blitz and a quarterback who teams are scared to let throw deep.

[Warhead36]

I'm tired of people saying "take what the defense gives you."

A good offense doesn't "take what the defense gives them." You think the Patriots give a **** what the defense does?

A good offense dictates play.

[skins4eva]

You know what? You guys are right, this thread is ridiculous. Kyle is the greatest OC of all time. But, before we move on, and some of you dismiss this thread and the posters who don't view Kyle as the second coming of Bill Walsh--just a few facts. Guess what team is tied for absolute last place in third down conversion rate so far this season? Kyle Shanahan's squad. We've converted 13 of 51 3rd downs this seasons. 3rd down is where an offense (and an offensive coordinator) earn their money. 3rd down conversions sustain drives and keep the defense rested. That stat to me is glaring. Last year, we ended the season in the middle of the back--15th in 3rd down conversion rate. But, if you go back to 2010, we ended the season 31 out of 32 teams--with a conversion rate of 29% for the season on 3rd downs. Sorry, guys. But, that just doesn't cut it.

[KCClybun]

I'm tired of people saying "take what the defense gives you."

A good offense doesn't "take what the defense gives them." You think the Patriots give a **** what the defense does?

A good offense dictates play.

So what? You want Robert to throw into double or triple coverage? Because we had a guy who did that, and everyone keeps complaining that he's still on the team and he gets booed whenever he steps on the field.

Tom Brady absolutely takes what the defense gives him. That's his whole deal. He'll line up, start his cadence, get the defense to show what their trying to do, then he'll adjust his playcall accordingly. Same with Peyton.

Robert is still second in the league in terms of yards per attempt and he's top ten with 18 plays over 20 yards. This assertion that we are not attack defenses is bull. Robert is playing his game exceptionally well for a rookie quarterback.

[Dirt]

Since when do people think they understand enough about coaching/playcalling to speak on it..? I mean that's kind of a new thing, right? Used to be: "we're not coaches so we don't know". People suddenly act like football isn't very very very very complicated.

I don't mean to be so harsh with that first sentence, I mean of course it's fine to speak on it/discuss it...but not to the point where you think you should determine someones job.

It's knee-jerk because we didn't win. Simple as that.

[KCClybun]

You know what? You guys are right, this thread is ridiculous. Kyle is the greatest OC of all time. But, before we move on, and some of you dismiss this thread and the posters who don't view Kyle as the second coming of Bill Walsh--just a few facts.

Worst in the league in third down conversions. That's absolutely true.

We're also fourth in the league in first downs per game.

Maybe you don't need third down when you get first downs and 1st and 2nd. 3rd down percentage must improve. You're right. But let's not exaggerate Kyle's awfulness.

And no one is calling him the next Bill Walsh but you.

[skins4eva]

Worst in the league in third down conversions. That's absolutely true.

We're also fourth in the league in first downs per game.

Maybe you don't need third down when you get first downs and 1st and 2nd. 3rd down percentage must improve. You're right. But let's not exaggerate Kyle's awfulness.

And no one is calling him the next Bill Walsh but you.

All fair points. But, people are defending him, and I'm asking why? What has he done during his tenure here to earn our support? We've fourth in the league in first downs, and that's great. But, I'd much rather have a consistent offense than an offense that picks up chunks of yards but can't sustain drives when it needs to. What I saw out there today was a microcosm of Kyle's playcalling since he's been in DC: completely schizophrenic--no sustained vision behind any of the calls. No setting up the defense for anything down the road. Running the ball just to run the ball, but moving away from it for no reason even when it was working incredibly well. And of course, the requisite head scratchers: the reverse to Leonard freakin Hankerson....my god, one of the worst calls I've seen in some time, and the direct snap to Alfred Morris...another dozy.

[TheGreatBuzz]

And of course, the requisite head scratchers: the reverse to Leonard freakin Hankerson....my god, one of the worst calls I've seen in some time, and the direct snap to Alfred Morris...another dozy.

At least it wasn't the swinging gate. :kickcan:

[skins4eva]

At least it wasn't the swinging gate. :kickcan:

Good point--it could always be worse.

[KCClybun]

All fair points. But, people are defending him, and I'm asking why? What has he done during his tenure here to earn our support? We've fourth in the league in first downs, and that's great. But, I'd much rather have a consistent offense than an offense that picks up chunks of yards but can't sustain drives when it needs to. What I saw out there today was a microcosm of Kyle's playcalling since he's been in DC: completely schizophrenic--no sustained vision behind any of the calls. No setting up the defense for anything down the road. Running the ball just to run the ball, but moving away from it for no reason even when it was working incredibly well. And of course, the requisite head scratchers: the reverse to Leonard freakin Hankerson....my god, one of the worst calls I've seen in some time, and the direct snap to Alfred Morris...another dozy.

The end around to Hankerson tends to set up plays like this...

If those plays work, no one is talking about how horrible they are.

To put a point on it; you see what you want to see. If you don't think Kyle is a good playcaller, the last four weeks don't matter. All that matters is today, he validated your perception.

Kyle's had to make chicken salad out of chicken **** for the last two years with mediocre talent.

[skins4eva]

The end around to Hankerson tends to set up plays like this...

If those plays work, no one is talking about how horrible they are.

To put a point on it; you see what you want to see. If you don't think Kyle is a good playcaller, the last four weeks don't matter. All that matters is today, he validated your perception.

Kyle's had to make chicken salad out of chicken **** for the last two years with mediocre talent.

Ok--I understand where you are coming from. Our perception always guides our reality--it's all relative. And, you are absolutely correct to point out that our talent level has been subpar. With all of that accounted for in my analysis, I still don't think he's the right man for the job. Maybe he'll prove me wrong, but so far, I haven't seen it.

[LaxinFish29]

What makes you think for the most part he has done a fine job? Seriously this 30 point production was not him it was the league not having tape on RG3 now there is tape and you see what happens we are back to the normal offensive output of 10 points a game the same average we have had since Kyle has been here.....

You are aware RGIII didn't play the whole game correct?

So tape from weeks 1, 2, and 3 didn't matter but it was that damned week 4 tape that did us in....the 30+ point games don't count for him but the one 17 point game does count against him. Got it.