Oldfan Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Well, guess you and Polian disagree about his skill set. I haven't really sat down and studied Peyton so am not inserting my own opinion in the mix. But on one thing, and that's why I asked you about release, Peyton does seem to get rid of the ball quick. ditto Drew Brees who doesn't have a gun. So just wondering via the QB geeks -- you, DG, Martin C -- how important do you think the release is or is not compared to lets say arm strength? They are both important. I wouldn't want a pro QB who didn't have both attributes. Trying to say which is more important, I come up blank, though. I can't say. Shanny has flat out said that's the last thing you need to see from a player and that is how they handle the pressure of the game. I recall him talking about that in talking about K. Moore as safety, he liked his camp but some players he said you don't know for sure until you see them in action under stress. Agree, that the specific component of dealing with the stress and speed of the game is unknown -- you won't know until you see it. But there seems to be some things you can disicpher to a degree such as work habits, intelligence and personality. I agree.Some would disagree on Shuler -- I recall some people close to the team later saying he struggled picking up the offense and didn't seem "football smart"My source was Trent Green.Understanding an offense and executing it under fire are two distinct things. It's not likely that Heath wasn't bright enough to understand Norv's offense just as it is unlikely that John Beck didn't understand Mike's offense. Seems more likely that they failed the execution under fire test. Norv did not make a mistake in selecting Shuler. Mike didn't make a mistake giving Beck a shot. Expertise will only take you so far in grading QBs. The rest is unpredictable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinsinparadise Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Norv did not make a mistake in selecting Shuler. Mike didn't make a mistake giving Beck a shot. Expertise will only take you so far in grading QBs. The rest is unpredictable. I would agree with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGmonster3 Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Article is spot on. The key to the redskins success is doing what was pointed out in the article - we've tailored our offense around him. That is where I give Mike Shannahan the most respect. He took a year off, out of the league to conceive the perfect offense - didn't work. Needed a qb. He went back to the drawing board and our offense has the chance to be one of the most dynamic in the league. Are we going 16-0? Never. But RG has the tools and he's perfect for us (like orakpo, Trent Williams, Ryan Kerrigan, Alfred Morris, etc etc. Kudos to the whole organization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpaskin Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Some would disagree on Shuler -- I recall some people close to the team later saying he struggled picking up the offense and didn't seem "football smart" Isn't he a Democrat Represenative?Seems a bit slow on the Political spectrum also... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Cowboy Bamma Rocker Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 I want a quarterback with fast eyes that can see a passing window and a fast, accurate arm that allows him to strike while it's open. I want a quarterback who can read defenses and process information under fire. I want a quarterback who can make the right play under duress and stay alive in the pocket, not just scramble downfield at the first sign of pressure. And ultimately I want a quarterback who will make a big play in clutch situations. I want a Quarterback with a short skirt and a loooooooooooooooooong jacket Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enter Apotheosis Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 That's an interesting piece, but I had to read it twice to understand it because the word "prototype" to me means: 1. the original or model on which something is based or formed. 2. someone or something that serves to illustrate the typical qualities of a class; model; exemplar: She is the prototype of a student activist. What he's saying, I think, is that there is no prototype QB -- each organization can create its own unique scheme built around the attributes of a talented QB. Polian went with the second definition, he just rejected the idea of a physical prototype. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewCliche21 Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Did anyone else read this to the tune of Cake's Short Skirt, Long Jacket? Late for work, but I had to acknowledge this beast of a post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Damn I'm old - I have absolutely no idea what u r talking about.What I thought about was an old test they used to give QBs where they timed them reading the song list off of a spinning record LP. Supposedly Jurgensen was the one guy whose eyes were so fast he could read one spinning at 78 rpm. What is this "LP" of which you speak? I joke I'm almost as old as you and I to have no idea what this Short Skirt Long Jacket song is - but I do know its not by Pink Floyd ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoVaSkins21 Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 I'm sorry but does the post, "Did anyone else read this to the tune of Cake's Short Skirt, Long Jacket" mean exactly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 So just wondering via the QB geeks -- you, DG, Martin C -- how important do you think the release is or is not compared to lets say arm strength? I'm not sure whether to be flattered or insulted being called a QB geek On the question you ask - quick release versus arm strength - you need both to be a pro QB. However people - including Pro Scouts IMO - fall in love too much with arm strength. You need enough arm to be able to throw the full route tree and especially the deep out against Pro DBs who react and move SO much quicker than you see typically in College. Once a QB has that functional arm strength thats fine - more is good but not a difference maker IMO. I would say that right now there are 4 absolute elite QBs in the NFL. Peyton, Brady, Brees and Rodgers. Of these only Rodgers has a truly elite arm (and even he is a notch behind Stafford and Cutler) along with maybe Brady - Peyton and Brees dont have elite arm strength. That brings us to a quick release. When people talk about a quick release they are normally talking about the throwing mechanics. There are some QBs with quicker releases than others (Marino had a lightening fast release for example) and some have a very slow release (Tebow, Leftwich for example) but most QBs cluster around the average in terms of mechanics. Its the recognition - anticipation - of coverage's and where to throw and the time taken to make that decision and to throw that I think of in terms of release. The elite QBs get the ball out of their hands quicker than the average guys because they anticipate routes, make decisions quicker and better than the average guys. In the context of how I defined quick release above I'd take that with average but functional arm strength over a guy with an elite arm but average release every time. Of course if you can get a QB with an elite arm, really quick release who also runs a 4.3 40........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedlamVR Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Norv did not make a mistake in selecting Shuler. Mike didn't make a mistake giving Beck a shot. Expertise will only take you so far in grading QBs. The rest is unpredictable. I see what you are saying with the intangibles issue, but there are some clues .Norv should have done some more work and sit down meetings insted of being wowed by tape and on field football . I agree Mike did not make a mistake giving Beck the start but had it not been for Grossman really having two bad games Beck would never have seen the field . With Beck I think you saw a little of it in the preseason - Although Beck was efficient and put up respectable numbers you kind of saw a little over processing in the field and he would not be as sure on where to go with the ball and he would become short sighted (well long sighted really) looking for the dump off way too soon . That in itself would not be a red flag but a warning - maybe the guy just needs more time getting comfortable . It could come with time but some QBs will all the physical tools in the world fail because they doubt themselves too much and the game can never slow down if you cannot stop questioning yourself - I think that is why Beck was gone as soon as we had Cousins ... I I think the peception is he would never have got the game to slow down .... You also have to draw a difference between class room smarts and football smarts . Being able to recite 2 left, red 4, 2 banna from a play book is not football smart . Just like being able to recite biochemical transformation of ATP does not make you a great biochemist - just means you are great at remembering stuff . The difference is being able to remember what something is compared to why it is . If the player can understand it they will always remember it - ( that is football smart) if the player can remember it he may not understand it - (that is simple smarts) - Watching tape will not tell you that about anyone - talking to them having meetings and interviews will pull this out of a kid - so yes you can get some insight on the intangiables .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RG3 against the machine Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 New RG3 against the machine shirts! http://www.ebay.com/itm/221124372544?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649#ht_500wt_1414 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HogNose Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Did anyone else read this to the tune of Cake's Short Skirt, Long Jacket? ...Love CAKE. You're right it does go well with the tune! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 I see what you are saying with the intangibles issue, but there are some clues .Norv should have done some more work and sit down meetings insted of being wowed by tape and on field football . I agree Mike did not make a mistake giving Beck the start but had it not been for Grossman really having two bad games Beck would never have seen the field . With Beck I think you saw a little of it in the preseason - Although Beck was efficient and put up respectable numbers you kind of saw a little over processing in the field and he would not be as sure on where to go with the ball and he would become short sighted (well long sighted really) looking for the dump off way too soon . That in itself would not be a red flag but a warning - maybe the guy just needs more time getting comfortable . It could come with time but some QBs will all the physical tools in the world fail because they doubt themselves too much and the game can never slow down if you cannot stop questioning yourself - I think that is why Beck was gone as soon as we had Cousins ... I I think the peception is he would never have got the game to slow down .... You also have to draw a difference between class room smarts and football smarts . Being able to recite 2 left, red 4, 2 banna from a play book is not football smart . Just like being able to recite biochemical transformation of ATP does not make you a great biochemist - just means you are great at remembering stuff . The difference is being able to remember what something is compared to why it is . If the player can understand it they will always remember it - ( that is football smart) if the player can remember it he may not understand it - (that is simple smarts) - Watching tape will not tell you that about anyone - talking to them having meetings and interviews will pull this out of a kid - so yes you can get some insight on the intangiables .... We seem to have at least a partial disagreement, but it's hard to have an intelligent discussion on the topic of intangibles because we can't even define our terms clearly. For example, "football smarts" is a term that to me means simply "I don't know what I'm talking about, but I know it isn't ordinary intelligence." I don't use that term. Ordinary intelligence is useful in football and can be measured in any number of ways. The QB will use ordinary intelligence to shine in the classroom. He understands how to read defenses and how to attack them. On the practice field, he makes the right reads. Then, on gameday, his brain freezes. That brain freeze isn't predictable. Our best guess is that it has something to do with the speed of the game. Maybe some QBs just need more time to adapt than they are given by coaches who are under the gun to win now. It isn't something you can ferret out in interviews. It isn't about character, intelligence, work ethic or self-confidence. The interview process may offer clues on those factors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 I like hearing Polian, whom I respect, make the Steve Young comparison. To me, that's by far the most fitting. Young was a talented athlete, with nice wheels. But first and foremost, he was an intelligent QB with great vision and a quick release. Like Robert, he also looked to throw first (usually more than once, as RGIII does) before taking off if necessary.I think some people still get hung up on African-American quarterbacks and their athleticism. I can't tell you how many times I've had to correct people that have compared RGIII to Mike Vick. If you want to go the AA route for your comparison, you need look no further than Mr. Warren Moon. Robert may be...I hesitate to say this just a little...the best athlete that we've seen play the position. But I can assure you that he is a quarterback first, and an athlete second. Thanks for posting this. Nice read. Warren Moon? Are you kidding me? Moon had a 40 time of "next week". One of my favorite QBs all time, but wheels he had not. I like the McNair reference for a BQB myself, although I think that's lazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gortiz Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 I'm sorry but does the post, "Did anyone else read this to the tune of Cake's Short Skirt, Long Jacket" mean exactly? There's a song by the band Cake that has lyrics that list off things the a certain guy likes about a girl ... similiar to how Polian lists off everything he wants in a QB, pretty funny, very cool song. Cake song: I want a girl with A mind like a diamond I want a girl who Knows what's best I want a girl with Shoes that cut And eyes that burn Like cigarettes I want a girl with The right allocations Who's fast and thorough And sharp as a tack Article: I want a quarterback with fast eyes that can see a passing window and a fast, accurate arm that allows him to strike while it's open. I want a quarterback who can read defenses and process information under fire. I want a quarterback who can make the right play under duress and stay alive in the pocket, not just scramble downfield at the first sign of pressure. And ultimately I want a quarterback who will make a big play in clutch situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RansomthePasserby Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 ...Love CAKE. You're right it does go well with the tune! I pretty much spent the rest of yesterday listening to random Cake songs after reading that paragraph. Late for work, but I had to acknowledge this beast of a post. Haha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illone Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Robert may be...I hesitate to say this just a little...the best athlete that we've seen play the position. mariucci said the same thing about RG3 and his athleticism. I think RG buried the vick comparisons on Sunday, but you cant cure ignorance so I'm sure people will continue to do it. That throw to Moss when he could have gained the first down with his legs was a pretty strong message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoVaSkins21 Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 There's a song by the band Cake that has lyrics that list off things the a certain guy likes about a girl ... similiar to how Polian lists off everything he wants in a QB, pretty funny, very cool song. Got it. Thanks for the info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seriously Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 Pardon me as I am coming up on the end of an uneventful shift on staff duty, after being up all day prior. I do agree that it is unfavorable to compare RGIII to Vick, I personally find it downright disrespectful... But I would venture to say he is like an improved Randall Cunningham- if we are to find a similar or like player... Agree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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