Yahoo.com : US Ambassador to Libya Chris Stevens killed in consulate attack in Benghazi

[thebluefood]

Tonight I had a discussion about this with my wife, who was not born in the US (Hong Kong).

She wants to know why we can't arrest the filmmaker for instigating this.. and you know why, no need for me to write it out.

These folks in these countries.. freedom of speech, even speech we deplore,, it's something they don't understand. They'd cut out his tongue.. (at minimum) whereas we'd like to ... but realize that if we do, we're no longer free.

~Bang

And while I hate what this movie has started and loathe the SOB that made it, there's something so heart wrenchingly beautiful about that it brings tears to my eyes.

I've often thought the state motto of New Hampshire should be our state motto.

[zoony]

How about, "live free or whine prolifically on the Internet".

Thats something I could get behind!

[Destino]

Tonight I had a discussion about this with my wife, who was not born in the US (Hong Kong).

She wants to know why we can't arrest the filmmaker for instigating this.. and you know why, no need for me to write it out.

These folks in these countries.. freedom of speech, even speech we deplore,, it's something they don't understand. They'd cut out his tongue.. (at minimum) whereas we'd like to ... but realize that if we do, we're no longer free.

~Bang

We aren't without our own flaws. One thing about this that gets me though is that the video is an excuse, not a reason. While some may not understand why the film makers aren't jailed they all would understand a crowd of Americans firebombing a Libyan embassy and killing their people in response to something we saw on YouTube is wrong. The point is that this isn't a two way street. This isn't about a hard to understand foreign society that refuses to police their own. This is about finding an excuse for violence against those that are not worthy of respect.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

Tonight I had a discussion about this with my wife, who was not born in the US (Hong Kong).

She wants to know why we can't arrest the filmmaker for instigating this.. and you know why, no need for me to write it out.

These folks in these countries.. freedom of speech, even speech we deplore,, it's something they don't understand. They'd cut out his tongue.. (at minimum) whereas we'd like to ... but realize that if we do, we're no longer free.

~Bang

yeah, this is what I was saying earlier. We cant expect everyone to have our same views, or even think our views are correct. We should not expect that, and think they are worse for that.

We don't put up with similar small minded fools in this country, the rules don't change when you go overseas.

---------- Post added September-14th-2012 at 11:12 PM ----------

We aren't without our own flaws. One thing about this that gets me though is that the video is an excuse, not a reason. While some may not understand why the film makers aren't jailed they all would understand a crowd of Americans firebombing a Libyan embassy and killing their people in response to something we saw on YouTube is wrong. The point is that this isn't a two way street. This isn't about a hard to understand foreign society that refuses to police their own. This is about finding an excuse for violence against those that are not worthy of respect.

indeed

[GSF]

I have to admit that I a.m fairly ignorant when it comes to the middle east and muslims, but my gut reaction is pretty much in line with what Zoony said. Also, it's hard for me to believe that all of this was set off by a video. Do they not understand that this was just some guy making a video?

[KCClybun]

I have to admit that I a.m fairly ignorant when it comes to the middle east and muslims, but my gut reaction is pretty much in line with what Zoony said. Also, it's hard for me to believe that all of this was set off by a video. Do they not understand that this was just some guy making a video?

It's not the video; it's the fact that the United States haven't done anything to the guy who posted it.

You gotta understand; a lot of those countries either have no free speech, or very limited free speech (which is pretty much no free speech). Even though they technically know that the U.S has free speech, they have no idea what the concept of it is.

And it's not because their stupid or crazy. It's just the way it is in those countries; you film something the government doesn't like, it either doesn't make it onto the internet, or it does and you get punished. If something does get published, the government must of approved of it and endorsed it, because if they didn't, why would they post it? It's like how we have no concept

It's also worth mentioning that pretty much all these protest are small, with about 200 hundred people doing a lot of damage. And there are plenty of local clerics and politicians willing to stoke the fear and violence and anger for their own political gain with little regard for the people.

It's easy to say "I don't get what the big deal about an internet video" is over here. People post stupid **** on the internet all the time and none of us have any concept of not being allowed to put stupid **** on the internet. Imagine if all the sudden all the stupid **** we wanted to put on the internet was subject to government approval. It'd be mind blowing as **** and pretty damn angering to have that loss of freedom.

We're trying to quell anger with a group of people who, for the most part, have no idea what that freedom is like.

[zoony]

No, it's becaus they are stupid. Exceedingly so. Every single one of them

There is a reason the vast majority of the populations of those countries stayed home and even expressed sorrow for what happened. Because they're not dumb and wastes of DNA, that's why.

Here we go trying to justify and understand. It ain't free speech laws.

No offense to anyone with that viewpoint of course, I just have no tolerance for this stuff no more than I have for racist groups, etc. in this country

[Prosperity]

Tonight I had a discussion about this with my wife, who was not born in the US (Hong Kong).

She wants to know why we can't arrest the filmmaker for instigating this.. and you know why, no need for me to write it out.

These folks in these countries.. freedom of speech, even speech we deplore,, it's something they don't understand. They'd cut out his tongue.. (at minimum) whereas we'd like to ... but realize that if we do, we're no longer free.

~Bang

Kind of a tangent but free speech as we know it is a relatively new thing for the US as well. Just a few decades ago we actually imprisoned people who passed out socialist literature or gave speeches about socialism. We put people in prison for speaking out against wars. It wasn't until the 50's and 60's that we started actually giving weight to the idea of free speech.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

Kind of a tangent but free speech as we know it is a relatively new thing for the US as well. Just a few decades ago we actually imprisoned people who passed out socialist literature or gave speeches about socialism. We put people in prison for speaking out against wars. It wasn't until the 50's and 60's that we started actually giving weight to the idea of free speech.

exactly

America wasnt really a democracy until the Voting Rights Act and Civil Rights Act both came to pass. And that was only in 64 and 65.

And like you said, Free Speech didnt exist in this country until around that point too.

[GSF]

yeah I still agree with Zoony...

[HeluCopter29]

I have to admit that I a.m fairly ignorant when it comes to the middle east and muslims, but my gut reaction is pretty much in line with what Zoony said. Also, it's hard for me to believe that all of this was set off by a video. Do they not understand that this was just some guy making a video?

The thing is that it's still extremely offensive to them. It'd be less offensive to us if they burned an American flag then the movie was.

I don't necessarily agree, but that's the fact.

---------- Post added September-15th-2012 at 12:35 AM ----------

How many did we get?.....many obviously needed killing..... and we missed some

Sweet Jesus, please tell me you didn't mean this?

[KCClybun]

No, it's becaus they are stupid. Exceedingly so. Every single one of them

There is a reason the vast majority of the populations of those countries stayed home and even expressed sorrow for what happened. Because they're not dumb and wastes of DNA, that's why.

Here we go trying to justify and understand. It ain't free speech laws.

No offense to anyone with that viewpoint of course, I just have no tolerance for this stuff no more than I have for racist groups, etc. in this country

Okay, I'll try it this way; ever seen a ****ing tea party rally?

"Stupid" isn't confined to the middle east. We got plenty of morons in this country who say the most ignorant **** on a regular basis. We give them radio shows and talk shows and even allow them to run for President of the United States, and like most groups of stupid people they are a small but vocal group who **** it up for the rest of the sane people.

The difference is here, the right to be stupid is protected, so you can haul off and create controversial videos disparaging another cultures entire religion, setting off violent protest across an entire region and you can sit comfortably in your home knowing the United States government can't do **** about it.

In those countries, they have no free speech, they have no concept of it, and are highly susceptible to those who wish to cause discontent, malice, and otherwise **** up progress. Here, since we've been at the whole free speech for longer (even though it still hasn't been very long), we've learned to put our dumbasses in a corner and ignore them.

Democracy in the Middle East is young, and this kind of ****, historically, always happens in the transition to democracy.

Sorry if it offends your worldview, but it's kind of how this **** works.

[visionary]

Something to think about though.

While I agree on Free Speech, I wonder if we're over simplfying things here.

There are a lot of situations where videos are banned online and their creators are punished in the US.

I would not be surprised if the maker of this one is as well.

He has a criminal past, and a ton of false identities, and he made this thing through lying and tricking people that he hired to act in it.

I would not be surprised to see this guy end up in jail soon or sued for all he's worth.

Now that said, this IS different from locking him up because we don't like what he has to say.

On a seperate note:

http://in.reuters.com/article/2012/09/14/film-protests-google-idINDEE88D0FT20120914

Google rejects White House request to pull Mohammad film clip

Google Inc (GOOG.O) rejected a request by the White House on Friday to reconsider its decision to keep online a controversial YouTube movie clip that has ignited anti-American protests in the Middle East.

The Internet company said it was censoring the video in India and Indonesia after blocking it on Wednesday in Egypt and Libya, where U.S. embassies have been stormed by protestors enraged over depiction of the Prophet Mohammad as a fraud and philanderer.

On Tuesday, the U.S. Ambassador to Libya and three other Americans were killed in a fiery siege on the embassy in Benghazi.

Google said was further restricting the clip to comply with local law rather than as a response to political pressure.

"We've restricted access to it in countries where it is illegal such as India and Indonesia, as well as in Libya and Egypt, given the very sensitive situations in these two countries," the company said. "This approach is entirely consistent with principles we first laid out in 2007."

[DjTj]

The difference is here, the right to be stupid is protected, so you can haul off and create controversial videos disparaging another cultures entire religion, setting off violent protest across an entire region and you can sit comfortably in your home knowing the United States government can't do **** about it.

In those countries, they have no free speech, they have no concept of it, and are highly susceptible to those who wish to cause discontent, malice, and otherwise **** up progress. Here, since we've been at the whole free speech for longer (even though it still hasn't been very long), we've learned to put our dumbasses in a corner and ignore them.

What movies was the Aurora shooter watching? What video games were the Virginia Tech shooters or the Columbine shooters playing? What groups were the Oklahoma City bombers involved in? What was the Unabomber reading?

Speech-inspired stupidity in America is much more dangerous to Americans than anything going on overseas. And while we are not protesting like they are in Cairo, there have been many movements to ban violent movies and video games, to criminalize fringe groups, or even just to limit the press coverage of mass murderers. Our religious extremists often advocate for censorship of racy television shows or even of athletes that speak out on political issues. We are still struggling with drawing the right lines on free speech, and it's not always that clear.

And we're not exactly free from mass protests either. The Occupy protests of last year certainly walked a very thin line between peaceful and violent, and nearly every city government that dealt with the protesters eventually resorted to force to evict them.

So it's not always easy for us to put our extremists in a corner and ignore them. We need to straighten them out from time to time, and every once in a while, crazy and stupid people are responsible for mass violence. While we have certainly been pretty successful at reducing violence incited by provocative speech, we have not eliminated it. There will always be stupid people in the world, and they will always find stupid reasons to do dangerous things.

[visionary]

http://e-ring.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2012/09/14/exclusive_panetta_says_pentagon_prepositioning_forces_for_additional_unrest

EXCLUSIVE: Panetta says Pentagon Pre-positioning Forces for Additional Unrest

With anti-American demonstrations spreading across the Middle East and North Africa, Defense Secretary Leon Panetta told Foreign Policy's National Security channel on Friday evening that the United States is positioning military forces so that it can respond to unrest in as many as 17 or 18 places that the Pentagon is "paying particular attention to." But he cautioned against writing off the region's recent moves toward democracy. "[O]ne demonstration of extremists, any more than a Ku Klux Klan demonstration in the United States, is not necessarily reflective of what the rest of the country feels," he said.

Panetta's comments were his first, publicly, since protests first erupted in Cairo and Libya, during which U.S. Ambassador Chris Stevens, two former Navy SEALs, and a State Department worker were killed. The Middle East, Panetta argued, is going through "convulsions" after its momentous change in leadership since the eruption of the Arab awakening early last year, on which al-Qaeda and other extremists are trying capitalize, but they do not necessarily reflect a change in regional security.

A U.S. defense official later told Foreign Policy that the Pentagon was discussing, but had not decided, late Friday whether to send a third platoon of 50 anti-terrorism Marines to protect the embassy in Sudan, to follow the roughly 100 Marines that already have landed in Tripoli and Yemen.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-anti-muslim-film-20120915,0,7929906.story

California Muslims hold vigil for slain ambassador

About 60 Southern California Muslims gathered Friday evening at the intersection of Barranca Parkway and Jamboree Road in Tustin to mourn the loss of U.S. Ambassador J. Christopher Stevens and the three others killed earlier this week in an attack on the U.S. Consulate in Benghazi, Libya.

The vigil was organized by a young Syrian American, who, along with some friends, wanted "to show that what happened in Libya does not represent us as Muslims," said Lilah Khoja, 21. "Even more important, we should stand by and honor the great Christopher Stevens, who did a lot for the Libyan people."

Khoja's initiative has led to other planned vigils throughout the nation, including in New York, Boston, Washington, D.C. and Chicago.

[alexey]

I think this has more to do with young men not having access to economic opportunities and females.

[twa]

I think this has more to do with young men not having access to economic opportunities and females.

the protests or the murder of diplomats?

if so,why do the females there not do so?

[alexey]

This is from 2003

http://www.brookings.edu/research/papers/2003/06/middleeast-fuller

The rapid population growth is such that youths under the age of 24 now make up 50-65 percent of the population of the Middle East. This places immense strains on the entire infrastructure of the state, especially on educational services that are already poor and declining in quality, and creates greater dissatisfaction among the most volatile elements of society. Social services need to be expanded as well to meet the growing population, but most states have been failing to meet the challenge. The slack is then usually taken up by Islamist organizations that are able to provide many of these services and gain increased support from the population. States likewise cannot employ the growing number of university graduates, heightening overall unemployment, also a volatile force.

---------- Post added September-15th-2012 at 08:22 AM ----------

the protests or the murder of diplomats?

if so,why do the females there not do so?

Protests... I understand those murders were a well coordinated terrorist attack.

Reproductive success of females is not as dependent on economic factors.

[twa]

the protests against the film does not enhance the economic opportunity,and in fact inhibits it

perhaps you overlook missing parts of their education

you do not see the same results in other areas with the issues you are focusing on.

[alexey]

the protests against the film does not enhance the economic opportunity,and in fact inhibits it

perhaps you overlook missing parts of their education

you do not see the same results in other areas with the issues you are focusing on.

Think of it as coping vs dealing with something.

Education is certainly a big part, especially if education consists of a mental virus called religious extremism.

---------- Post added September-15th-2012 at 08:57 AM ----------

It also seems that lack of economic opportunities would be an emasculating and pride-pinching kind of thing. Where the real world fails to give a sense of pride and self importance, religion provides. How dare they insult the prophet!

[twa]

Bin Laden and many other terrorists were far from poor

I'm certainly a fan of economic opportunity,but you cannot grow w/o proper nutrients/soil

hopefully the changes in leadership will help,but I'm not optimistic

[alexey]

Bin Laden and many other terrorists were far from poor

I'm certainly a fan of economic opportunity,but you cannot grow w/o proper nutrients/soil

hopefully the changes in leadership will help,but I'm not optimistic

Bin Laden wasn't protesting on the street.

It's a tough situation indeed with no clear solution. I'm just saying that it may help to examine this from a psychological perspective. Maybe this is more about where all this energy comes from rather than what releases it.

[twa]

It's a tough situation indeed with no clear solution. I'm just saying that it may help to examine this from a psychological perspective. Maybe this is more about where all this energy comes from rather than what releases it.

Nothing wrong with that, but what directs and releases it are more critical to me.

Energy can be beneficial or deadly

[HeluCopter29]

Nothing wrong with that, but what directs and releases it are more critical to me.

Energy can be beneficial or deadly

I actually agree with you on this.

It's terrorist groups fulfilling their wishes by misinforming potential recruits who have had their loved ones killed by US drone strikes (and other such events).

So maybe education, economic opportunity, and democracy being established over there wouldn't be such a bad thing for the US to do after all.

(Let's just not waste tons of money and ensure that we're going to have to cut from our own education even further then we will now).

[twa]

So maybe education, economic opportunity, and democracy being established over there wouldn't be such a bad thing for the US to do after all.

(Let's just not waste tons of money and ensure that we're going to have to cut from our own education even further then we will now).

We have a record of doing so, but that is a incomplete solution, nor really our place to do more than help.

It is also more than terrorist groups doing the directing....a issue that can only be resolved within their ranks.