Top 5 shooting guards in NBA history

[Hunter_R]

To say that Kobe's not a strong shooter is just hilariously funny to me. While he's never seen a shot he didn't want to take, just look at the way he's STILL defended in the final minute of a game. Has there EVER been a better CLUTCH shooter? He's maybe the most clutch shooter the league has ever seen. Imho he's firmly entrenched @ #2 in the shooting guard category.

[Sticksboi05]

To say that Kobe's not a strong shooter is just hilariously funny to me. While he's never seen a shot he didn't want to take, just look at the way he's STILL defended in the final minute of a game. Has there EVER been a better CLUTCH shooter? He's maybe the most clutch shooter the league has ever seen. Imho he's firmly entrenched @ #2 in the shooting guard category.

I could think of one probably.

[DieselPwr44]

Umm.........Sam Jones has to be in the discussion...

http://www.game7.com/sam-jones.php

He led Boston in scoring in the 1962-63 NBA season (19.7 points per game), 1964-65 NBA season (25.9) and 1965-66 NBA season (23.5).

Sam Jones had a perfect record (9-0) in Game 7s. He averaged an astonishing 27.1 points in those potential season-ending, elimination games, including a Game 7-record 47 points in the 1963 East Finals.

"In the years that I played with the Celtics, in terms of total basketball skills, Sam Jones was the most skillful player that I ever played with. At one point, we won a total of eight consecutive NBA championships, and six times during that run we asked Sam to take the shot that meant the season. If he didn't hit the shot we were finished and we were going home empty-handed. He never missed." -Bill Russell, in an interview with Celtic Nation

[PeterMP]

Tracy McGrady was an all nba player 5 times (same as Moncrief). Was a better scorer, got more rebounds, and dished out more assists than Moncrief.

Moncrief was an incredible defender, but McGrady was the better player in their primes.

McGrady's post season numbers also destroy Moncrief's.

Moncrief could get a high percentage shot at almost any time. He routinely shot over 48%, which McGrady never did.

If you look at absolute numbers and don't worry about rule changes, changes in the style of the game, or effeciency, you' might conclude that McGrady was easily the better player, but then you'd be fool.

If you look at things like win shares, McGrady's best season was better than Moncrief's, but Moncrief then has 6 seasons that are better than McGrady's 2nd best season.

**EDIT**

Jordan on Moncrief:

"When you play against Moncrief, you're in for a night of all-around basketball. He'll hound you everywhere you go, both ends of the court. You just expect it."

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

Moncrief could get a high percentage shot at almost any time. He routinely shot over 48%, which McGrady never did.

If you look at absolute numbers and don't worry about rule changes, changes in the style of the game, or effeciency, you' might conclude that McGrady was easily the better player, but then you'd be fool.

If you look at things like win shares, McGrady's best season was better than Moncrief's, but Moncrief then has 6 seasons that are better than McGrady's 2nd best season.

**EDIT**

Jordan on Moncrief:

"When you play against Moncrief, you're in for a night of all-around basketball. He'll hound you everywhere you go, both ends of the court. You just expect it."

chill out

and most top players shot over 50% in the 1980s. It was a more open court, transition based game back then. Also, team defenses and strategies were not important back then. You put McGrady in the 1980s, and he would be a 6'8" 2guard who could handle like a point and would be the best athlete on the court. He would be amazing in the 1980s.

You put Moncrief in the early 2000s NBA which was a slower game and had a better emphasis on team defending, do you think Moncrief shoots over 50%?

[Going Commando]

chill out

and most top players shot over 50% in the 1980s. It was a more open court, transition based game back then. Also, team defenses and strategies were not important back then. You put McGrady in the 1980s, and he would be a 6'8" 2guard who could handle like a point and would be the best athlete on the court. He would be amazing in the 1980s.

You put Moncrief in the early 2000s NBA which was a slower game and had a better emphasis on team defending, do you think Moncrief shoots over 50%?

Moncrieff was a better all around player. He won more, he did more. Two time DPOY and one of the best defenders of his era plus a terrific offensive player that could score inside and out and pass and rebound.

Guys like Dr. J and Jordan point out he was one of the best players of the 80s. I think after Bird and Magic, you could make him being the third best all around player of the 80s.

The fact that T-Mac has never been out of the first round weighs heavily against him. He had a very brief moment where he was the best player in the NBA. But he didn't extend that long enough to lead to significant team success.

[artmonkforHOF]

Yep top 3 are a lock, 4 is Clyde for me 5 is open to a few. Reggie miller is nowhere near this list, Cheryl has a better chance of making any list of mine over Reggie.

Sam Bowie

Vlade Divac

The Logo

Clyde the Glide

Iceman

Mentions to Joe Dumars, Bill Sharman, Iverson, Bernard King, Mitch Richmond & any old-timer I might be forgetting

[grhqofb5]

Give some Bernard King and Jimmy Jones from the ABA.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

Moncrieff was a better all around player. He won more, he did more. Two time DPOY and one of the best defenders of his era plus a terrific offensive player that could score inside and out and pass and rebound.

what does that mean?

and Moncrief won more with a much better team than McGrady had. Marques Johnson, a still good Bob Lainer, Brian Winters, Terry Cummings (all in different times, but those were his teammates). Look over those Orlando rosters and see if TMac ever had a teammate as good as Marques Johnson and Terry Cummings.

Not only that, but those Bucks teams were post season failures. They were that eras Phoenix Suns.

Guys like Dr. J and Jordan point out he was one of the best players of the 80s. I think after Bird and Magic, you could make him being the third best all around player of the 80s.

thats great, and guys like Duncan, Shaq, and Kobe, etc would say that McGrady was one of the best players of the 2000s.

and Moncrief a better all around player than Jordan? Akeem? ionno.

The fact that T-Mac has never been out of the first round weighs heavily against him. He had a very brief moment where he was the best player in the NBA. But he didn't extend that long enough to lead to significant team success.

Im not denying that, Im not even a big fan of McGrady. I just think he was a better player than Sidney Moncrief. Was there ever a point where you could say Moncrief was the best player in the NBA?

shoot, I would argue TMac's prime was better than Paul Pierce and Ray Allen. Of course people think a ring makes a player better, but its whatever.

Give some Bernard King and Jimmy Jones from the ABA.

King was a small forward and this is for the NBA.

[amm0409]

What stands out to me on that top 10, is how much the second 5 drop off (generally) from the top 5. Not that the bottom half is in any way shabby. This is a completely subjective thread (which is what makes it fun to debate).

what stands out to me is the drop off from #1

Also I think there could be some small forwards playing SG and some of the SG could be known as a PG so blah blah on this for right now

[Reaper 21]

To say that Kobe's not a strong shooter is just hilariously funny to me. While he's never seen a shot he didn't want to take, just look at the way he's STILL defended in the final minute of a game. Has there EVER been a better CLUTCH shooter? He's maybe the most clutch shooter the league has ever seen. Imho he's firmly entrenched @ #2 in the shooting guard category.

I agree with this. Except Jordan is more clutch.

Top 5 sg of all time

Mj

Kobe

West

Iverson

Ray Allen

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

To say that Kobe's not a strong shooter is just hilariously funny to me. While he's never seen a shot he didn't want to take, just look at the way he's STILL defended in the final minute of a game. Has there EVER been a better CLUTCH shooter? He's maybe the most clutch shooter the league has ever seen. Imho he's firmly entrenched @ #2 in the shooting guard category.

That's demonstrably wrong by every conceivable metric.

I agree that he's the second best 2 guard ever.

But people can't just make things ups.

[Going Commando]

what does that mean?

He did more on the court. Nearly as good an offensive player and rebounder as TMac, but a much, much better defender. Probably the preeminent defender of the early 80's.

and Moncrief won more with a much better team than McGrady had. Marques Johnson, a still good Bob Lainer, Brian Winters, Terry Cummings (all in different times, but those were his teammates). Look over those Orlando rosters and see if TMac ever had a teammate as good as Marques Johnson and Terry Cummings.

Those Orlando teams were better than you think. TMac never had anyone nearly as good as Marques Johnson with Grant Hill missing so much time, but they had a well balanced team built around him that had top notch shooters like Mike Miller and Pat Garrity and had decent forwards like Darrell Armstrong and Drew Gooden. And of course, when Grant Hill was healthy, he was a force. Early in his career he played with Vince Carter. But it's really in Houston where TMac had a lot of talent surrounding and underachieved. At that point, Yao was the only dominant true big left in the NBA. Houston is one of the best franchises in the NBA and has a history of success. It should have been the situation he could have thrived in but he just wasn't as good as he was in Orlando at that point and he was never able to stay healthy enough.

Not only that, but those Bucks teams were post season failures. They were that eras Phoenix Suns.

Meh, they couldn't beat the Sixers with Dr. J and Moses Malone. Then they couldn't beat the Celtics with Bird, Parish, and McHale. The East was stacked and better teams than those Bucks ran into that same wall and couldn't get past it. Even if they had somehow managed to make a finals, they wouldn't have beaten the Lakers. That was an era of Super teams. Moncrieff was the only top tier All NBA player on his team. He was good, but not that good.

I'd say the Suns were actually better. Steve Nash is a HoFer and Amare is nearly as good as Moncrief (and has had a longer prime IMO). But again, the problem for the Suns is they just weren't better than the Lakers, Spurs, and Mavs in alternating years.

and Moncrief a better all around player than Jordan? Akeem? ionno.

During the 80s, yeah probably. Guys like Jordan and Hakeem and Barkley didn't really hit their peak until the 90's. Moncrieff's prime fell entirely within the 80s. Rodman was more in the 90's. Same for Robinson and Pippen and Stockton and Malone. Jordan has a case because right at the end of the decade he became a brilliant defender and was already a brilliant scorer, but I don't know it you can say he was one of the greatest players of the 80s based on a two or three year run at the end of the decade.

Dr. J and Kareem had their best years in the 70s for the most part. Moses should be ahead of Moncrieff though, I forgot about him. Seems to happen a lot to him. I could definitely see an argument for Kevin McHale and maybe one for James Worthy. Probably go McHale over Moncrieff and Moncrieff over Worthy. Bernard King's run was too brief.

I'd probably say greatest players of the 80's would be 1.) Bird, 2.) Magic, 3.) Moses, 4.) Isiah, 5.) McHale, 6.) Moncrieff

Im not denying that, Im not even a big fan of McGrady. I just think he was a better player than Sidney Moncrief. Was there ever a point where you could say Moncrief was the best player in the NBA?

No, I don't think you could ever say he was. But his good years lasted longer than TMac's. T-Mac's pinnacle was really maybe just two years. Moncrieff was arguably the best two way player in the league for four or five seasons. He wasn't a better player than Bird or Magic mid decade, or Moses or Dr. J early decade because he wasn't nearly as good offensively as those guys. But he was, at least, a more well rounded player and significantly better defender than them.

shoot, I would argue TMac's prime was better than Paul Pierce and Ray Allen. Of course people think a ring makes a player better, but its whatever.

I wouldn't disagree. TMac's 2002 and 2003 is hands down better than either of those guys's peaks. Hell, TMac's 2002-2003 is better than the peak of any other player from the 2000's except Shaq, Iverson, Kidd, Duncan, Dirk, Nash, Kobe, LeBron, and Wade IMO. Maybe Yao too, except he could never make it an entire season.

But T-Mac's run was brief and longevity/staying power matters in debates like these. It's about being healthy, or if not, playing anyway (and playing at a high level). It's about being to adjust as opponents figure you out. And it's about growing your game into new areas as your speed/flexibility/agility/body control recede. That's one reason while you'll not hear me say Wade beats Kobe overall. Kobe wins in a landslide on longevity. Wade hasn't really adjusted his game to remain dominant as his speed fades like Kobe did. Wade also can't stay nearly as healthy as Kobe, who has been a freak of nature in terms of durability.

[PeterMP]

In 2002-2003, McGrady was a great basketball player. If he had more seasons like that, he'd be in the conversation, but that was by far in away his best season.

As a starter, he never had a better 3%, FT%, or FG% than he did in 2002-2003. Not suprisingly, it was also the highest number of points he ever scored.

Was that his peak and he went "down" from there because of injuries or other issues or was it just a statistical anomollay, I don't know, but it was only one year.

[Sticksboi05]

During the 80s, yeah probably. Guys like Jordan and Hakeem and Barkley didn't really hit their peak until the 90's. Moncrieff's prime fell entirely within the 80s. Rodman was more in the 90's. Same for Robinson and Pippen and Stockton and Malone. Jordan has a case because right at the end of the decade he became a brilliant defender and was already a brilliant scorer, but I don't know it you can say he was one of the greatest players of the 80s based on a two or three year run at the end of the decade.

Dr. J and Kareem had their best years in the 70s for the most part. Moses should be ahead of Moncrieff though, I forgot about him. Seems to happen a lot to him. I could definitely see an argument for Kevin McHale and maybe one for James Worthy. Probably go McHale over Moncrieff and Moncrieff over Worthy. Bernard King's run was too brief.

I'd probably say greatest players of the 80's would be 1.) Bird, 2.) Magic, 3.) Moses, 4.) Isiah, 5.) McHale, 6.) Moncrieff

Jordan is definitely one of the best players of the 80s. He came into the league and put up 28 ppg in 1984. Other than the missed sophomore season, he dominated. Was DPOTY by 1988. Does it get better all-around than averaging 35 ppg while winning DPOTY? Then in 1989 a 32.5/8/8 season. And becoming the only player besides wilt to score 3,000 in a season with 37.1 ppg in 1987. Not top 5 of the decade because he began halfway through but surely one of the best.

[deejaydana]

That's demonstrably wrong by every conceivable metric.

I agree that he's the second best 2 guard ever.

But people can't just make things ups.

Dramatic much? Do you watch basketball or just make humorous posts? Just add in 'degree of difficulty' to his clutch shots as something that also sets him apart. He seemingly does better when there's a defender in his face. Agree to disagree I suppose.

[DCranon21]

Umm.........Sam Jones has to be in the discussion...

http://www.game7.com/sam-jones.php

The problem with this is, his PPG and not a lot of tape on Jones is the problem. Everyone seen what West done during that era. True enough he killed the Lakers during that era, but what about people who are 45 and younger know about Jones? I'm not going to lie, I know he's in the Hall, and won 10 titles with Boston, but did he do anything that was considered to be a top 10 shooting guard?

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

McQueen, you are 26.

Why are you so on Moncrief's jock?

I saw him play. He was pretty good. But he does not belong in this discussion.

[JMS]

What stands out to me on that top 10, is how much the second 5 drop off (generally) from the top 5. Not that the bottom half is in any way shabby. This is a completely subjective thread (which is what makes it fun to debate).

I don't know about that. Jordan is #3 Kobe is #4 all time in scoring and respectively have a PPG of (30.1, and 25.4 )...

1.Jordan-----------------------------------30.1

2.Kobe------------------------------------25.4

3.West------------------------------------27.0

4.The Ice Man, George Gervin---- 25.1

5.Iverson-------------------------------- 26.7

My bottom five have PPG scoring totals of ...

6. Clyde Drexler -------------------------- 20.4 ( 27th all time)

7. Dwyane Wade --------------------------25.2

8. Pistol Pete Maravich ------------------24.2

9. Ray Allen---------------------------------20.0

10. Reggie Miller---------------------------18.2

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

He did more on the court. Nearly as good an offensive player and rebounder as TMac, but a much, much better defender. Probably the preeminent defender of the early 80's.

Moncrief was not near the offensive player McGrady was. I asked before, if you swap eras who plays closer to their peak level? McGrady or Moncrief? a 6'4" two guard or a 6'8" athletic freak of a two guard? Especially in the 80s which wasnt the most defensive and a transition based era.

Those Orlando teams were better than you think. TMac never had anyone nearly as good as Marques Johnson with Grant Hill missing so much time, but they had a well balanced team built around him that had top notch shooters like Mike Miller and Pat Garrity and had decent forwards like Darrell Armstrong and Drew Gooden. And of course, when Grant Hill was healthy, he was a force. Early in his career he played with Vince Carter. But it's really in Houston where TMac had a lot of talent surrounding and underachieved. At that point, Yao was the only dominant true big left in the NBA. Houston is one of the best franchises in the NBA and has a history of success. It should have been the situation he could have thrived in but he just wasn't as good as he was in Orlando at that point and he was never able to stay healthy enough.

Pat Garrity who never averaged more than 11 points a game, Darrell Armstrong who was a 40% shooter in his career, and Drew Gooden who has played for 9 years in 9 years. You compare them to Marques Houston and Terry Cummings who were All-NBA caliber players and Bob Lanier who was an all star caliber player in his time in Milwaukee. You are so far wrong on this its hilarious. Those Bucks teams were waaaaaaaaay more talented than McGrady's Orlando teams. Those Magic teams did not underachieve, they did just about what was expected of them

Meh, they couldn't beat the Sixers with Dr. J and Moses Malone. Then they couldn't beat the Celtics with Bird, Parish, and McHale. The East was stacked and better teams than those Bucks ran into that same wall and couldn't get past it. Even if they had somehow managed to make a finals, they wouldn't have beaten the Lakers. That was an era of Super teams. Moncrieff was the only top tier All NBA player on his team. He was good, but not that good.

I'd say the Suns were actually better. Steve Nash is a HoFer and Amare is nearly as good as Moncrief (and has had a longer prime IMO). But again, the problem for the Suns is they just weren't better than the Lakers, Spurs, and Mavs in alternating years.

sounds like the Phoenix Suns not being able to get by the Spurs, Mavs, and Lakers.

During the 80s, yeah probably. Guys like Jordan and Hakeem and Barkley didn't really hit their peak until the 90's. Moncrieff's prime fell entirely within the 80s. Rodman was more in the 90's. Same for Robinson and Pippen and Stockton and Malone. Jordan has a case because right at the end of the decade he became a brilliant defender and was already a brilliant scorer, but I don't know it you can say he was one of the greatest players of the 80s based on a two or three year run at the end of the decade.

Dr. J and Kareem had their best years in the 70s for the most part. Moses should be ahead of Moncrieff though, I forgot about him. Seems to happen a lot to him. I could definitely see an argument for Kevin McHale and maybe one for James Worthy. Probably go McHale over Moncrieff and Moncrieff over Worthy. Bernard King's run was too brief.

I'd probably say greatest players of the 80's would be 1.) Bird, 2.) Magic, 3.) Moses, 4.) Isiah, 5.) McHale, 6.) Moncrieff

you all see this right? Just making sure Im not the only one.

No

exactly

I wouldn't disagree/QUOTE]

thanks again

[Sticksboi05]

Moncrief was not near the offensive player McGrady was. I asked before, if you swap eras who plays closer to their peak level? McGrady or Moncrief? a 6'4" two guard or a 6'8" athletic freak of a two guard? Especially in the 80s which wasnt the most defensive and a transition based era.

Pat Garrity who never averaged more than 11 points a game, Darrell Armstrong who was a 40% shooter in his career, and Drew Gooden who has played for 9 years in 9 years. You compare them to Marques Houston and Terry Cummings who were All-NBA caliber players and Bob Lanier who was an all star caliber player in his time in Milwaukee. You are so far wrong on this its hilarious. Those Bucks teams were waaaaaaaaay more talented than McGrady's Orlando teams. Those Magic teams did not underachieve, they did just about what was expected of them

sounds like the Phoenix Suns not being able to get by the Spurs, Mavs, and Lakers.

you all see this right? Just making sure Im not the only one.

exactly

I wouldn't disagree/QUOTE]

thanks again

It was funny to see Moncrieff ahead of Jordan for best of the 80s. Good for a laugh.

[DCranon21]

Steve I respect you and your basketball knowledge my man, but Moncrieff over MJ? I too remember Moncrieff, but he was no shape or form ahead of Jordan.

[PeterMP]

Moncrief was not near the offensive player McGrady was. I asked before, if you swap eras who plays closer to their peak level? McGrady or Moncrief? a 6'4" two guard or a 6'8" athletic freak of a two guard? Especially in the 80s which wasnt the most defensive and a transition based era.

The problem is that your talking about their best.

McGrady's peak was literally one year.

In that one year, you'd take him.

In the other years, he was a good player, but not great.

---------- Post added July-23rd-2012 at 02:51 PM ----------

McQueen' date=' you are 26.

Why are you so on Moncrief's jock?

I saw him play. He was pretty good. But he does not belong in this discussion.[/quote']

I saw Moncrief play too and originally brought him up.

I'd take him over IA and McGrady.

IA was great at one thing and pretty poor at the rest of basketball. McGrady had one REALLY REALLY good year and some other good years.

I'm not sure he's top 5, but he's at least got to be part of the conversation.

[CrypticVillain]

I just asked an old head who knows alot about Sidney Moncrief because I don't know much about him besides him playing for the Bucks. Anyways, he said he was a beast and he just was on the wrong team at the wrong time. I guess he meant having to play in the east with the Celtics and 76ers, and then messed around and had to witness the beginning of the greatest player ever.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

The problem is that your talking about their best.

McGrady's peak was literally one year.

In that one year, you'd take him.

In the other years, he was a good player, but not great.

McGrady didnt have one great year tho? He was a 7 time All NBA player. 2 times he made All NBA first team. In McGrady's prime, he was a top 5 NBA player.

From 2000-01 to 2007-8, McGrady averaged like 26 points a game. Thats not a one year thing.

---------- Post added July-23rd-2012 at 03:27 PM ----------

I just asked an old head who knows alot about Sidney Moncrief because I don't know much about him besides him playing for the Bucks. Anyways, he said he was a beast and he just was on the wrong team at the wrong time. I guess he meant having to play in the east with the Celtics and 76ers, and then messed around and had to witness the beginning of the greatest player ever.

yeah, Moncrief was a bad man. No disrespect to him at all, it was more just mentioning him as a top 10 2guard while throwing shade at anyone saying McGrady was better in their primes which were both relatively short due to injuries.