Top 5 shooting guards in NBA history

[PeterMP]

And Kobe says West is.

[Predicto]

And Kobe says West is.

And I say that Magic is. So there.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

I promise you all, no more on this because its boring and repetitive.

No it isn't. Gasol was much better than Abdul Rahim. Lamar Odom's career is closer to Abdul Rahim's than Gasol's is.

why do you say career when I am specifically talking about Memphis? There numbers are identical, as are the playoff wins.

Elton Brand had an amazing year in 2005/2006. If he'd kept it up instead of getting fat and hurt, he'd be a HoFer. But he flamed out. That year Gasol was one of the 15 best players in the NBA. That's a true blue star.

Brand actually got injured. and Gasol was not a top 15 player in 2005-6. You are revising things.

Gasol broke out in 2005-2006. In that year, he was the fourth best big in the NBA and had a legit star season. The next year he was on track to have an even better season but he battled injuries and missed a lot of time. He had broken out.

he was the 4th best big in the league, yet made no all NBA team. Shaq, Dirk, Timmy, Brand, Ben Wallace, and KG were all better than Gasol that season. Go look at the advanced stats you praise over and they will show that too. You are doing that revision thing again.

Dominant means you go out and dominate your opponent most nights. That's what Gasol did. His season was fantastic.

and being a dominant NBA player means that you are an elite player. Gasol was never considered that until he got to LA where this overrating started.

His game was already excellent. It didn't need to change for him to be great because he's already super skilled. Gasol was a dominant player in LA. He's put up three All NBA caliber seasons since he's been there.

so now All NBA seasons matter when judging greatness? they didnt matter before.

He hasnt been dominant in LA either, he is a great complimentary player. Like Scottie Pippen in Chicago with Jordan. Or Joe Dumars with Isiah in Detroit. No problems with that, but he isnt the dominant.

Equating him with Sharif Abdul Rahim and Antawn Jamison is definitely knocking him. He's much better than both.

you are doing it again. I only mentioned Gasol's time in Memphis and you keep using his whole career. Shareef and Jamison were comparable players to Gasol when he was in Memphis. I would say Gasol has gotten better in LA, but not dominant.

If anyone is revising the past, it's you. Any metrics you could want demonstrate you are wrong and pretty much everyone else agrees you are wrong about this. You're argument is entirely based off of him not winning a playoff game but nobody else thinks that's sufficient (plus it's questionable when you're simultaneoulsy defending Kobe for having a lack of surrounding talent).

its actually also based on NO ONE talking about Gasol when he was in Memphis as a dominant player. And all the metrics point to this. Im trying to figure out how a dominant big man can not win a playoff game, and also not make an All NBA team? It doesnt happen. Even Brad Daugherty made one, and he was never considered as good as Hakeem, Ewing, DRob when they were all in the NBA.

and those Memphis teams had some good players on it. 7 guys finished with at least 10 points a game one year. Shane Battier, Jayson Williams, Bonzi Wells, Mike Miller... if Kobe had a team like that in the post Shaq/pre title years I can guarantee you he wins at least ONE playoff game.

That's because it's completely obvious Shaq was great and Kobe was the second banana on those teams. He said it himself at the time when he forced Shaq out--he was tired of being a sidekick.

you realize that didnt happen, right? Shaq even said it wasnt Kobe but instead Lakers management making the decision not to want to pay Shaq 30 million a year because he was breaking down.

On top of that, if it werent for Kobe killing the Spurs, the Lakers dont win 3 straight NBA titles in the early aughts as the Spurs did a great job of limiting Shaq (which is a big reason why I will always say Duncan>Shaq) so it wasnt a true sidekick deal.

Kobe is a true great. There is no need to knock Gasol in order to make this point. He's played at a high level for years and years.

havent knocked Gasol once, I would rather he be rated at the level he rightly is at instead of this overrating.

Jerry West's 14 seasons are better than Kobe's best 14 seasons. Kobe will eventually pass him on pure longevity. Their careers are close, but West was better.

he wasnt. West would disagree with you and fight fervently to tell you that Kobe was better.

There was a time when I would have agreed with you. Kareem and Wilt each have strong cases for GOAT but Jordan wins pretty easily when you look at the total picture. He crushes Wilt on all of the intangibles and when you compare the level of competition each faced. He beats Kareem in the wide

The funny thing is, Jordan accomplished everything you can basically do to be considered the GOAT.

- Unstoppable champion as the top dog on a team that didn't have a dominant offensive post player? Check

- Freakish scoring exploits cementing his case as the greatest offensive player in NBA history? Check

- One of the best defensive players at his position of all time? Check.

- A career full of legendary moments? Check.

- Impact on the game that goes far beyond the numbers and the wins? Check.

Even something as simple as changing the way the game looked belongs to Michael. He made shoes awesome and he ushered in the transition from hot pants to bermuda shorts. What's crazy is Jordan lost two of his prime years too. If he doesn't get burned out, what's his career look like then?

He's a one of a kind player. LeBron is the only player I expect to ever see in my lifetime have a chance of topping him as the GOAT. And I don't think he'll do it.

Push comes to shove, I'll take Jordan over any big. You can't bet against him. Everyone was afraid of him and basketball ultimately comes down to respect. Nobody disrespected Jordan, not for long anyway. Nobody bet against him. He'd find a way to be a champion with Luc Longley or Bill Cartwright as his bigs. Oh wait..

yeah, Kareem won multiple titles at every level.

He had his spectacular plays, of course its not remembered because the NBA got big on TV in the 1980s.

I dont know what this "intangibles" are but Wilt Chamberlain is the most dominant player the NBA has ever seen.

[Sticksboi05]

Great, he still says Kobe is the better player and best Laker. So does Earvin

Cool, and everyone else says Magic is the best Laker ever. So...

[Going Commando]

why do you say career when I am specifically talking about Memphis? There numbers are identical, as are the playoff wins.

No they aren't. Abdul Rahim's best season was an 81 game 19.9 PER campaign where he accumulated 9.7 WS. His career numbers are 18.2 PPG, 7.5 RPG, and .472 fg %, 19.0 PER and 71.2 WS.

Gasol's 2005-2006 blows any season of Abdul-Rahim's out of the water. He scored 20.4 PPG, with 8.4 RPG on .502 shooting with a 22.7 PER and 12.0 WS. This was Gasol's breakout year in Memphis.

Brand actually got injured. and Gasol was not a top 15 player in 2005-6. You are revising things.

No. You're full of it. Gasol was 11th in WS that season, 7th in defensive WS, 18th in defensive rating, and 17th in PER. He was one of the 15 best all around players in the league that season. If he hadn't missed so much time because of his broken foot the next season, he would have surpassed those numbers in 2006-2007.

he was the 4th best big in the league, yet made no all NBA team. Shaq, Dirk, Timmy, Brand, Ben Wallace, and KG were all better than Gasol that season. Go look at the advanced stats you praise over and they will show that too. You are doing that revision thing again.

No. It's the advanced stats that show you're wrong. Dirk, Brand, and KG were better than him. They finished as three of the top six players that season in WS and PER. They were better than a lot of people. It's debatable with Duncan. Ben Wallace and Shaq certainly weren't. Shaq only played 59 games that season and Ben Wallace finished with only 10.1 WS to Gasol's 12.0 and only finished 1.5 Defensive WS ahead of Gasol. His 17.5 PER is substantially lower. His 7.5 PPG was nowhere close to Pau's scoring totals. Duncan finished behind Gasol in WS and just .4 in his PER ahead of Pau. Gasol was slightly better offensively, Duncan was about equally as good in terms of rebounding and defending.

and being a dominant NBA player means that you are an elite player. Gasol was never considered that until he got to LA where this overrating started.

According to you. I prefer the much more straightforward definition of dominant player = guy who goes out and dominates night to night. Feels a bit like yours is an obfuscation.

so now All NBA seasons matter when judging greatness? they didnt matter before.

He had 3 All NBA caliber seasons. That's not the same. It's objectively based on his numbers. An 11 + WS season is an All NBA caliber season most years.

you are doing it again. I only mentioned Gasol's time in Memphis and you keep using his whole career. Shareef and Jamison were comparable players to Gasol when he was in Memphis. I would say Gasol has gotten better in LA, but not dominant.

The numbers say he's pretty much the same player and this accurately reflects the advanced skill level he's played with since he was in Memphis.

You're simply not remembering Gasol in Memphis accurately. That's where the entire problem lies. Nobody else agrees with you here.

you realize that didnt happen, right? Shaq even said it wasnt Kobe but instead Lakers management making the decision not to want to pay Shaq 30 million a year because he was breaking down.

Wrong.

I nodded. The next subject was Shaquille. "Will Shaq's presence on this team color your decision to come back or not?" I asked [Kobe].

"Yes, it does," [Kobe] said.

"There's no doubt about that," [Kobe] said. "I've done that for eight years with him, but I'm tired of being a sidekick." His sentiment came as no surprise, obviously. In the last few years the entire city of Los Angeles has heard many times from many "sources" that Kobe was no longer willing to play a subservient role to Shaquille. But to hear it in the words of the only source that matters, to hear Kobe say "sidekick," really struck me. I told Kobe I hoped he would find happiness in basketball and in his life, and that his family would remain intact after everything that had transpired in the last year. The meeting was over.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/basketball/nba/10/12/jackson/

On top of that, if it werent for Kobe killing the Spurs, the Lakers dont win 3 straight NBA titles in the early aughts as the Spurs did a great job of limiting Shaq (which is a big reason why I will always say Duncan>Shaq) so it wasnt a true sidekick deal.

Kobe was absolutely Shaq's sidekick. Sidekicks have their roles.

he wasnt. West would disagree with you and fight fervently to tell you that Kobe was better.

But then Kobe will probably tell you it was West. So what? West's individual career was better than Kobe's right now. It's going to take a couple more great seasons from Kobe to pass West and put distance between them.

yeah, Kareem won multiple titles at every level.

He had his spectacular plays, of course its not remembered because the NBA got big on TV in the 1980s.

I dont know what this "intangibles" are but Wilt Chamberlain is the most dominant player the NBA has ever seen.

Jordan was individually better than both, particularly when you factor in he was a guard and they were 7'1. Wilt was a loser for the better part of his career too. Those were his intangibles. Sure he was dominant, but considering the era and the level of competition he faced, Jordan's domination of the 80's and 90's is far more impressive and meaningful.

[Shabby]

But to kill this "pot meets kettle" thing, Kobe took the team with the best record in the NBA in the Suns to 7 games - and probably wins that series if Lamar Odom wasnt a dummy in game 6 - with Kwame Brown, DeVean George, Brian Cook, and Smush Parker either starting or in the rotation. With Luke Walton making big shots. If Gasol is the best player on that team, they dont make the playoffs and may end up with 50+ loses. That was a terrible team that Kobe had an out of this world season to get them into post season contention.

Lol clearly we see your "agenda" too, dont we? People making excuses for Kobe, "It was Lamar's fault."

Im sure when Gasol hit the game winning shot in the playoffs off of a Kobe miss, I am guessing Kobe got fouled or something, or Kobe missed the shot in a way where he knew Pau would get it and put it back for the win lol. If it wasnt for that, who knows what would have happened in that series. Also, same thing happened in the next series when Kobe air balled a game winning shot but luckily he gets bailed out again by Artest.

I read your post and understood it fine. He was not a better offensive big man than Webber, Duncan, and Amare. Webber and Duncan are probably the two best big man passers ever. Especially Webber in that Princeton offense in Sacramento. Webber finding cutters in the high post made that offense soar.

You put amare in the category, when he had steve nash distributing him the ball for easy buckets, but you dont have Gasol there? Thats ridiculous.

no, I give Gasol credit for being a great complimentary player. No insult in that, but he was never dominant. That has only been brought up in his LA years to take credit away from Kobe. Where as this "dominant big man" when Boston had Big Baby and an old KG punking him when the Finals returned to Boston in 2010? He was nonexistant all 3 games there.

If it werent for Gasols game winning shot against Thunder, they might not even have been in the finals that year.

explained this earlier, but Kobe at least WON a playoff game. Think about that, he WON a playoff game. Gasol couldnt even do that in Memphis

Yeah, what was the end result tho? Gasol and Kobe ended up in the same place, at home watching the rest of the playoffs

And I give Gasol a lot of credit, but I refuse to accept people re-writing the past to suit their agenda.

It all makes sense now

now the agenda is coming out. It took you long enough.

Sometimes championship teams have their runs end. Not a bad thing, no? in 2011, Dallas made Kobe a jump shooter by crowding the lane. But I ask, where was Gasol, the dominant big man, in that series? But its cool, its all Kobe's fault. (and I dont say this to say Kobe played well either).

This year, OKC were a better team and Kobe lost them game 2. Again tho, where was this dominant big man in Gasol? He should have been the best front court player in that series since he is so dominant, but that did not happen. Some how that is Kobe's fault.

So what exactly are you saying here? Gasol played bad, and by your own words kobe played bad also. So then why is it only Gasols and the rest of the lakers fault??

yup, your agenda has been shown out.

:ols:

---------- Post added July-26th-2012 at 02:26 AM ----------

No they aren't. Abdul Rahim's best season was an 81 game 19.9 PER campaign where he accumulated 9.7 WS. His career numbers are 18.2 PPG, 7.5 RPG, and .472 fg %, 19.0 PER and 71.2 WS.

Gasol's 2005-2006 blows any season of Abdul-Rahim's out of the water. He scored 20.4 PPG, with 8.4 RPG on .502 shooting with a 22.7 PER and 12.0 WS. This was Gasol's breakout year in Memphis.

And the next season gasol average 21, 10, and shot 54%.

---------- Post added July-26th-2012 at 02:28 AM ----------

No they aren't. Abdul Rahim's best season was an 81 game 19.9 PER campaign where he accumulated 9.7 WS. His career numbers are 18.2 PPG, 7.5 RPG, and .472 fg %, 19.0 PER and 71.2 WS.

Gasol's 2005-2006 blows any season of Abdul-Rahim's out of the water. He scored 20.4 PPG, with 8.4 RPG on .502 shooting with a 22.7 PER and 12.0 WS. This was Gasol's breakout year in Memphis.

And the next season Gasol averaged 21, 10, and shot 54%.

[Shabby]

wasn't that the year the Lakers didn't make it to the playoffs?

Yupp lol

---------- Post added July-26th-2012 at 03:12 PM ----------

You see I never said anything against Shaq, even tho similar arguments about Kobe needing a big man could be made for Shaq needing a dominant perimeter player, but I digress. I dont question anyone saying Shaq was a great or dominant player. He was a beast as soon as he entered the NBA.

Shaq won finals MVP those 3 times he won with the lakers. Again, when he left and before the lakers traded for another great big man in Pau, what was Kobe doing besides scoring a lot?

Jordan is only the undisputed GOAT because of Nike and the NBA allowing it..

:doh:

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

wasn't that the year the Lakers didn't make it to the playoffs?

nope, lost to the Suns in 7 games in the first round.

---------- Post added July-26th-2012 at 06:59 PM ----------

Yupp lol

why are you still peddling this lie? Kobe has only missed the postseason once in his career.

Shaq won finals MVP those 3 times he won with the lakers. Again, when he left and before the lakers traded for another great big man in Pau, what was Kobe doing besides scoring a lot?

and what was Pau doing before he went to LA? This is what I keep asking and you all decide to use Kobe not getting out of hte first round for two years against him (and he had bad teams) but then decide to not think much of Gasol not winning a playoff game in 3 tries, with a team that had 7 players finish over 10 points a game in scoring. Its a double standard.

Gasol was not great without Kobe, Kobe was great without Gasol. Its that simple

:doh:

i dont know what makes you upset about that? He isnt the undisputed greatest player ever for me and many others. Nike did a great job selling that he was, and that nothing else mattered in the NBA before his career, and the NBA have conspired with it. Its actually one of the greatest injustices in sports. I dont get why Kareem isnt better than him. Or Magic. Or Wilt. Or Oscar.

[Shabby]

why are you still peddling this lie? Kobe has only missed the postseason once in his career.

Huh? You got that from me saying yupp?

and what was Pau doing before he went to LA? This is what I keep asking and you all decide to use Kobe not getting out of hte first round for two years against him (and he had bad teams) but then decide to not think much of Gasol not winning a playoff game in 3 tries, with a team that had 7 players finish over 10 points a game in scoring. Its a double standard.

Gasol was not great without Kobe, Kobe was great without Gasol. Its that simple

HOW, thats what i keep asking you, HOW can you say that when he didnt get out of the first round? And missed the playoffs one year?? You keep saying Gasol wasnt great because he couldnt win a playoff game, and since when does having a bunch of players average 10+ ppg make your team great?? The suns had the best offense for a long time but they didnt win anything. Just cause you score a lot, doesnt make you great.

Gasol doesnt get out of the first round = Gasol is not dominant.

Kobe doesnt get out of the first round = Kobe is great but his team sucks.

This is your logic? Common now.

i dont know what makes you upset about that? He isnt the undisputed greatest player ever for me and many others. Nike did a great job selling that he was, and that nothing else mattered in the NBA before his career, and the NBA have conspired with it. Its actually one of the greatest injustices in sports. I dont get why Kareem isnt better than him. Or Magic. Or Wilt. Or Oscar.

Lol im not upset about it, I just find it funny. "Nike has brain washed most of the NBA players, as well as analysts in to thinking Michael Jordan is the GOAT." I find that hilarious. But it is your opinion, and ill respect that, but it doesnt mean i cant laugh.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

Huh? You got that from me saying yupp?

because you agreed with him saying an untrue statement and said that untrue statement before.

HOW, thats what i keep asking you, HOW can you say that when he didnt get out of the first round? And missed the playoffs one year?? You keep saying Gasol wasnt great because he couldnt win a playoff game, and since when does having a bunch of players average 10+ ppg make your team great?? The suns had the best offense for a long time but they didnt win anything. Just cause you score a lot, doesnt make you great.

The bolded, when did I say that?

What I actually said is that team should have won at least ONE playoff game in 3 years. And if SteveMcQueen1 is still involved in this, Shabby just dropped a strawman argument in what I underlined. That is what is a strawman statement, not comparing players who put up comparable stats with each other in a particular time frame which Gasol in Memphis, Abdur-Rahim, and Tawn did. Saying "the suns werent great so why couldnt the Lakers beat them" as a way to equate Gasol and Memphis getting swept every year in the playoffs.

And Kobe averaging the most ppg since Jordan in 1988 is great. It was agreed as well since he was voted All NBA first team again that year and finished top 4 in MVP voting (and in all honesty, he should have won it).

Gasol doesnt get out of the first round = Gasol is not dominant.

Kobe doesnt get out of the first round = Kobe is great but his team sucks.

This is your logic? Common now.

I listed the squads earlier. Compare Gasol's squads when Memphis was making the playoffs to the teams the Lakers had when they lost in back to back to Phoenix. Take out Gasol and Kobe and tell me which team had more talent.

And Kobe was great before that with Shaq as well.

Lol im not upset about it, I just find it funny. "Nike has brain washed most of the NBA players, as well as analysts in to thinking Michael Jordan is the GOAT." I find that hilarious. But it is your opinion, and ill respect that, but it doesnt mean i cant laugh.

I didnt say they brainwashed, I said they did a great job of making what was once a legit argument unarguable through their great advertising. Just like they make people believe you can play like MJ if you drink gatorade, buy air jordans, and wear his jersey.

Im not saying its wrong to say Jordan isnt the GOAT, what I contend with is that its inarguable. Its absolutely not. Kareem's resume is actually greater than Jordan's, but somehow its inarguable for him to say "you know, my career was better than Mike's."

[Shabby]

and since when does having a bunch of players average 10+ ppg make your team great??

The bolded, when did I say that?

Here you go.

decide to use Kobe not getting out of hte first round for two years against him (and he had bad teams) but then decide to not think much of Gasol not winning a playoff game in 3 tries, with a team that had 7 players finish over 10 points a game in scoring.

What I actually said is that team should have won at least ONE playoff game in 3 years. And if SteveMcQueen1 is still involved in this, Shabby just dropped a strawman argument in what I underlined. That is what is a strawman statement, not comparing players who put up comparable stats with each other in a particular time frame which Gasol in Memphis, Abdur-Rahim, and Tawn did. Saying "the suns werent great so why couldnt the Lakers beat them" as a way to equate Gasol and Memphis getting swept every year in the playoffs.

How can you say i dropped a strawman argument when you completely made up that statement on your own??

PLEASE tell me when i said that? Or when anyone said that?

When I brought up the suns, i wasnt comparing them to the lakers, I said them scoring a lot didnt mean anything because in the end they didnt win anything. That was in response to what YOU said when you claimed and tried to justify that Gasol had a great team, or "not bad team" because the grizzlies had "7 players score more than 10 points a game". Dont twist my words lol

And Kobe averaging the most ppg since Jordan in 1988 is great. It was agreed as well since he was voted All NBA first team again that year and finished top 4 in MVP voting (and in all honesty, he should have won it).

So what? No one said Kobe wasnt a great scorer, hell i even said my self that he was a great scorer. Im just not trying to put him on a pedestal that you have put him. And in all honesty, the year Kobe actually did win the MVP, it should have been Chris Paul or LeBron.

EDIT*** Here, I thought Id just put in what I said about Kobe

Kobe is champion and a great scorer, but without a dominant big man, a great scorer is all he is.

And Kobe was great before that with Shaq as well.

Yeah, As the second banana.

I didnt say they brainwashed, I said they did a great job of making what was once a legit argument unarguable through their great advertising. Just like they make people believe you can play like MJ if you drink gatorade, buy air jordans, and wear his jersey.

lol yeah thats what most of the nba players that played with jordan fell for and thus making them believe MJ is the GOAT.

Sure its arguable, but to claim the media is the reason why people dont say otherwise? thats ridiculous.

---------- Post added July-27th-2012 at 01:50 AM ----------

He was considered a great player. I mean there's no point arguing if you choose to ignore being completely wrong as half a dozen in this thread have pointed out.

:applause:

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

Here you go.

good grief, I never said that made them great. What are you reading? My point is that Memphis team wasnt terrible like someone mentioned earlier.

How can you say i dropped a strawman argument when you completely made up that statement on your own??

PLEASE tell me when i said that? Or when anyone said that?

When I brought up the suns, i wasnt comparing them to the lakers, I said them scoring a lot didnt mean anything because in the end they didnt win anything. That was in response to what YOU said when you claimed and tried to justify that Gasol had a great team, or "not bad team" because the grizzlies had "7 players score more than 10 points a game". Dont twist my words lol

the irony.

and having 7 players score over 10 points a game and win 50 games in a very good western conference does not make your team bad. And I never called the Suns great, I said they had the best record in the NBA. Thats a factual statement. You are reading and responding to what you want.

So what? No one said Kobe wasnt a great scorer, hell i even said my self that he was a great scorer. Im just not trying to put him on a pedestal that you have put him. And in all honesty, the year Kobe actually did win the MVP, it should have been Chris Paul or LeBron.

EDIT*** Here, I thought Id just put in what I said about Kobe

I actually agree with that. It has nothing at all to do with the 2005-6 season tho. And as I keep saying, Gasol was never a dominant big man. Its something you and others have decided to create to throw shade at Kobe's greatness.

and the guy was more than a great scorer, but its whatever when you read that Kobe cant even make the playoffs without a great big man and then someone props up Lamar Odom and Kwame Brown and Chris Mihm as great big men, then I know this conversation has veered into a path of utter delusion and Kobe hate.

Yeah, As the second banana.

no doubt, this "VERY SELFISH" player won 3 rings as the 2nd primary scorer on that team. Imagine that.

people are so transfixed on their dislike of Kobe that they contradict themselves that its almost hilarious. ;ols:

lol yeah thats what most of the nba players that played with jordan fell for and thus making them believe MJ is the GOAT.

Sure its arguable, but to claim the media is the reason why people dont say otherwise? thats ridiculous.

who are the ones who shape the sports agenda in this country?

I mean this conversation we have about Kobe has shown the power of the media on peoples minds. Some how Kobe won 3 rings as second banana but is also one of the most selfish players ever and then later could only make the playoffs with good big men like Kwame Brown, Lamar Odom, and Chris Mihm and could only win an NBA title with a dominant big man who never won a playoff game before he arrived in LA and never made an All NBA team in Pau Gasol. These have all been popular talking points in the media for most of Kobe's career and some how many in here believe that is all fact.

:applause:

dont forget the rest of the statement... that averaging 20 and 9 makes you a great power forward but then again Shareef Abdur Rahim and Antawn Jamison were not great even tho they also averaged 20 and 9.

[Going Commando]

Im not saying its wrong to say Jordan isnt the GOAT, what I contend with is that its inarguable. Its absolutely not. Kareem's resume is actually greater than Jordan's, but somehow its inarguable for him to say "you know, my career was better than Mike's."

I think that's worth debate. I haven't looked at all the numbers, but off the top of my head, I think Jordan's resume is better.

[CrypticVillain]

Yeah, As the second banana.

To be fair, during that run, anybody would have been second banana to Shaq. Probably even Jordan. (I will say that if you put Jordan on those Laker teams they probably would have won four or 5 straight. )

[Sticksboi05]

To be fair, during that run, anybody would have been second banana to Shaq. Probably even Jordan. (I will say that if you put Jordan on those Laker teams they probably would have won four or 5 straight. )

Of course. The East was a joke. Aside from the Kings and Blazers the Lakers cakewalked to that three-peat.

[CrypticVillain]

Of course. The East was a joke. Aside from the Kings and Blazers the Lakers cakewalked to that three-peat.

And the Spurs.

Yeah, the East was a joke, but the West was ridiculous at that time.

[Going Commando]

To be fair, during that run, anybody would have been second banana to Shaq. Probably even Jordan. (I will say that if you put Jordan on those Laker teams they probably would have won four or 5 straight. )

Jordan at that age would have been, but Jordan in his prime defers to no one. It wasn't in his nature. He could get you involved certainly but he'd be the undisputed leader and the guy every takes their cues from.

The Lakers could have won four or five championships with Kobe and Shaq. Not in a row, but I think they could have gotten 5 in six years. Shaq still had dominant years left in him. But Kobe didn't want to defer to Shaq any more and wanted it to be his team and said he'd leave in FA if Shaq stuck around. The Lakers decided to stick with their 26 year old budding superstar and let the chips fall where they may. It ended up being the right choice because Bynum worked out and they pulled off the Gasol heist, but it was dicey for a hot minute. If they hadn't been able to get him a contender in the nick of time, Kobe would have probably forced his way out. He was disgruntled. All of that and i'm thinking to myself, you kind of made your bed there Kobe when you forced LA to get rid of Shaq.

At that point, DWade hadn't really broken out yet, he had just showed signs and tons of promise. I'm wondering what would have happened if LA had decided to trade Kobe for DWade and Odom and such and keep Shaq? I bet they get their other championships faster and maybe Shaq retires a Laker. What a Bizarro NBA that would have created. LeBron comes to LA to play with his buddy who is racking up championships? Kobe frozen out of contention in Miami, maybe becomes an NBA nomad?

[CrypticVillain]

and they pulled off the Gasol heist

At that point, DWade hadn't really broken out yet, he had just showed signs and tons of promise. I'm wondering what would have happened if LA had decided to trade Kobe for DWade and Odom and such and keep Shaq? I bet they get their other championships faster and maybe Shaq retires a Laker. What a Bizarro NBA that would have created. LeBron comes to LA to play with his buddy who is racking up championships? Kobe frozen out of contention in Miami, maybe becomes an NBA nomad?

That is exactly what that was and I am pissed nobody called Jerry West out on that. Now I know that Marc Gasol ended up becoming a good player, but at the time that move was made strictly to get the Lakers back in championship contention.

I would have loved it everything went down the way you said it Steve. It would have been nice.

[Shabby]

the irony.

and having 7 players score over 10 points a game and win 50 games in a very good western conference does not make your team bad. And I never called the Suns great, I said they had the best record in the NBA. Thats a factual statement. You are reading and responding to what you want.

Still havent told me when I said that...? Waiting for it....

And the bolded part, you gotta love the irony in that statement alone

I actually agree with that. It has nothing at all to do with the 2005-6 season tho. And as I keep saying, Gasol was never a dominant big man. Its something you and others have decided to create to throw shade at Kobe's greatness.

Yeah, but i was just saying he shouldnt have won it that year just as you said he should have won it some other year. Only said that because it means nothing and adds nothing to the argument. Me saying he shouldnt have won that year, and you saying he should have won another year, doesnt add anything to the debate. Would coulda shoulda.

and the guy was more than a great scorer, but its whatever when you read that Kobe cant even make the playoffs without a great big man and then someone props up Lamar Odom and Kwame Brown and Chris Mihm as great big men, then I know this conversation has veered into a path of utter delusion and Kobe hate.

Delusion, you got that part right, but not about Kobe hate, more about a Kobe love affair.

no doubt, this "VERY SELFISH" player won 3 rings as the 2nd primary scorer on that team. Imagine that.

And this "not selfish" player you claim destroys a dynasty because he no longer wanted to be second banana, so he pushes one of the best centers of all time out of LA, and eventually causes a coach who many claim as the GOAT, to leave as well. Imagine that.

people are so transfixed on their dislike of Kobe that they contradict themselves that its almost hilarious. ;ols:

You talk about irony, and yet you make the most ironic statements lol

who are the ones who shape the sports agenda in this country?

I mean this conversation we have about Kobe has shown the power of the media on peoples minds. Some how Kobe won 3 rings as second banana but is also one of the most selfish players ever and then later could only make the playoffs with good big men like Kwame Brown, Lamar Odom, and Chris Mihm and could only win an NBA title with a dominant big man who never won a playoff game before he arrived in LA and never made an All NBA team in Pau Gasol. These have all been popular talking points in the media for most of Kobe's career and some how many in here believe that is all fact.

So you're right, and the rest of the country is wrong? haha if i would have known that was your logic then I wouldnt have bothered debating this topic.

dont forget the rest of the statement... that averaging 20 and 9 makes you a great power forward but then again Shareef Abdur Rahim and Antawn Jamison were not great even tho they also averaged 20 and 9.

Fair enough, as long as you admitted that the first part was right, then im fine with it.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

That is exactly what that was and I am pissed nobody called Jerry West out on that. Now I know that Marc Gasol ended up becoming a good player, but at the time that move was made strictly to get the Lakers back in championship contention.

I would have loved it everything went down the way you said it Steve. It would have been nice.

it wasnt exactly a heist then, was it?

Marc Gasol is an All Star center in the NBA and he and ZBo form one of the best frontlines in the NBA. The trade actually worked out for Memphis, even though the Lakers won titles with Pau Gasol.

---------- Post added July-27th-2012 at 04:52 PM ----------

I think that's worth debate. I haven't looked at all the numbers, but off the top of my head, I think Jordan's resume is better.

its not