Top 5 shooting guards in NBA history

[CrypticVillain]

This was a nice mixtape I found on Youtube. I always liked videos like this. Nice little instrumental in the background to match the way the person plays.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I wonder where would Toney be in this list if he wasn't injured all the time?

He was done physically at the age of 27, right when the Sixers were transitioning to Barkley. He should have been entering his prime right as Barkley was starting to establish himself - which is a really scary thought.

The Sixers were kind of a mess in those years. Toney was feuding with management. Moses aged 30 years overnight. Dr. J kept hanging around even though he was done. Barkley - the guy with the biggest personality in league history - had to play second-fiddle to a collection of fossils for years.

It would be really fun to retcon the NBA from 1986 on with Barkley and Toney as a healthy 1-2 punch in Philly. Maybe the 76ers could have dumped Moses for some role players and suddenly the Pistons never win a title.

[Predicto]

Vinnie Johnson was a backup shooting guard on the Bad Boy Pistons. He was nicknamed "The Microwave" because he could heat up so fast. I honestly can't think of a specific game that he dominated. I just know that in 87 and 88' date=' the Celtics bench was hopeless in trying to defend him, Rodman, and Salley. It was just completely unfair.[/quote']

VJ wasn't really a backup in the traditional sense. The Pistons used a three man backcourt rotation, and no other guards played any minutes. It was either Isaiah at the point and Dumars as the 2, or Isaiah at the point and the Microwave at the 2, or Dumars at the point and the Microwave at the 2. They all got their 30 mins a game, the Pistons got all of their offense from the backcourt. I think if Vinnie Johnson had played on pretty much any other team, he would have been a starter and a perennial all star. He had this weird little lean in jumper that was deadly and impossible to defend, because he didn't need to be squared up for it to go in.

[Going Commando]

Crap, I missed the PF thread then. Hey Sticksboi, I know this is a pain in the ass request, but is there anyway you could put links to the other four threads in the OP of each thread. I'm lazy and it would help me circumvent going and searching for the other threads.

---------- Post added July-20th-2012 at 07:36 PM ----------

Sidney Moncrief has to part of the conversation.

I agree. I was going to put him 4 probably.

I just love his overall creativity. Such a unique offensive player plus I think he was a much better defender than he probably got credit for. He was a great athlete that knew how to play the game. I'd rather have him than a guy like Reggie Miller.

---------- Post added July-20th-2012 at 08:07 PM ----------

To me this is the hardest ranking. So many divergent styles of play. So many flawed players on the all time list.

MJ and West are the only air tight all timers IMO. Kobe will get there but he's such a flawed player to be the second guy on the list. No other list has a consesus #2 this flawed.

A lot of guys, like Iverson, I just don't consider 2 guards since they were primary ball handlers. But if the consensus is that Iverson is a 2 guard, well, I'm putting him on my list here then.

A ton of guys from my lifetime probably make this list if their careers had played out like expected. But they didn't and they just can't be included. You can't in good conscience put Penny Hardaway on there. Too many injuries, and wtf position was he anyway? PG, SG, SF? Allan Houston and Steve Francis? Looked great for a hot minute before they flamed out. Same with Latrell Sprewell. T-Mac and Butch Carter never lived up to their expectations IMO. You just can't put them on a top 5 all time list. Dwyane Wade is cutting it close because of his injuries and lack of longevity. Manu? No. Reggie Miller and Steve Smith? Good, not really great. I like them for their TNT work more than anything. Reggie was a real ******* and dork during his playing days. I never really cared for him, he always seem vastly overshadowed by guys like Penny and Grant Hill. Kendall Gill and Jerry Stackhouse looked good at first then topped out early.

It's just a whole lot of really good but not great at this position throughout NBA history.

I guess I'd have to end up going:

1.) Jordan

2.) Kobe

3.) West

4.) Iverson

5.) Wade/Monroe/Moncrieff

Honorable mention to Mitch Richmond, Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, Bill Sharman, Pete Maravich, Clyde Drexler, and Chris Mullin I suppose. They were all one dimensional for the most part. I'd rather have Wade's 4 best years than the careers of any of those guys.

---------- Post added July-20th-2012 at 08:07 PM ----------

Brandon Roy is another one that got away.

[Going Commando]

Dwyane Wade's prime is second only to MJ's prime. Less selfish and far more efficient than Kobe. Better all around game than any other 2 except MJ. Arguably the greatest individual performance in NBA finals history.

There must be something about playing SG that just impedes longevity for most players. Of all the other positions, this one would have the weakest top 5 and top 10 list on resumes.

9/10 of the big time talents didn't make it ten years of high play. I wonder what it is?

Nature of the position? Typically least important role on the team? Least creative offensive role? Gotta be big for a guard and fast and as soon as that speed is gone, kaboom? Gotta be able to shoot? The better ball handlers get moved to PG and the bigger players that can rebound and defend better get moved to SF? That would in effect, take away a lot of the most talented potential off guards.

Jordan and Kobe skew the perceived value and longevity of the SG position so much despite the fact they are freakish outliers not even remotely matched by the other outliers at their position.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

2 guard is historically the weakest position in the NBA...

one and two are automatically MJ and Kobe.

3 to 5 is when you have to ask questions. I see people say Iverson, but I always think of dude as a combo guard more than a pure two. And Iverson couldnt play defense. Then you have Jerry West, but he played a lot of small forward in his most productive years. West also played some point guard

From 3 to 5 I wont rate them but you could argue Pete Maravich, Mitch Richmond, Dwyane Wade, Ray Allen, and George Gervin all over each other.

---------- Post added July-20th-2012 at 09:51 PM ----------

and if you are including a guy like Sidney Moncrief whose career was derailed by injuries, then I think Tracy McGrady should also be included.

---------- Post added July-20th-2012 at 09:53 PM ----------

Dwyane Wade's prime is second only to MJ's prime. Less selfish and far more efficient than Kobe. Better all around game than any other 2 except MJ.

absolutely not. Kobe is a better player than Wade, even today. Wade, outside of 2 years, is not a good shooter. Not that good in the post and was never the defender Kobe was when he cared about defending earlier in his career.

[JMS]

1. Jordan
   
2. Kobe
   
3. West
   
4. The Ice Man, George Gervin
   
5. Iverson
   -----------------------------------------------------
   
6. Clyde Drexler
   
7. Dwyane Wade
   
8. Pistol Pete Maravich
   
9. Ray Allen
   
10. Reggie Miller
    

[Going Commando]

I see people say Iverson, but I always think of dude as a combo guard more than a pure two. And Iverson couldnt play defense.

Yeah Iverson couldn't play D but he was probably the most remarkable scorer of his era. One of the most remarkable scorers in NBA history.

The great thing about Iverson is he never took a night off in his career. Every NBA player looks at their schedule and thinks, "hmm, I can dial it down tonight and just coast and get my points and save myself for Miami at the end of the week."

Not Iverson. Iverson's only speed was 250 MPH and he was an absolute warrior every night. Put that kind of heart and motor on a much bigger man and you're looking at the GOAT.

absolutely not. Kobe is a better player than Wade, even today. Wade, outside of 2 years, is not a good shooter. Not that good in the post and was never the defender Kobe was when he cared about defending earlier in his career.

I'd rather have DWade in his prime than Kobe.

I would actually put them level defensively at each point. Today? Wade is a better defender. He and LeBron completely lock the perimeter down and Miami is the best defensive team in the league. Plus Wade gets into the paint and protects the rim. I think Kobe has some real problems defending smaller perimeter players that Wade doesn't.

Wade is also at least as good a shooter as Kobe is.

The major difference between Wade and Kobe is that Wade is a much better teammate/much less selfish, a far better passer, and a much, MUCH more efficient offensive player.

Also there's the fact Wade's 2006 finals performance is arguably the greatest individual finals performance in NBA history.

Kobe wins by a landslide on freakish longevity. But at their apex, Wade was a better all around player. Hell they were probably at their primes at the same time.

[DieselPwr44]

Nobody remembers Sam Jones...do they?

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

Yeah Iverson couldn't play D but he was probably the most remarkable scorer of his era. One of the most remarkable scorers in NBA history.

The great thing about Iverson is he never took a night off in his career. Every NBA player looks at their schedule and thinks, "hmm, I can dial it down tonight and just coast and get my points and save myself for Miami at the end of the week."

Not Iverson. Iverson's only speed was 250 MPH and he was an absolute warrior every night. Put that kind of heart and motor on a much bigger man and you're looking at the GOAT.

He was also a chucker and inefficient scorer. I love Ivy, been to a few of his parties here in DC, etc. But Iverson is more of a combo guard and was a volume scorer.

I'd rather have DWade in his prime than Kobe.

Kobe averaged 35 point a game one year. Wade averaged 30 one year. Nah, Kobe's prime is better than Wade's.

I would actually put them level defensively at each point. Today? Wade is a better defender. He and LeBron completely lock the perimeter down and Miami is the best defensive team in the league. Plus Wade gets into the paint and protects the rim. I think Kobe has some real problems defending smaller perimeter players that Wade doesn't.

I said Wade is a better defender today, but in his prime Kobe was a DPOY candidate. Wade has never been on that level. Shoot, this is the first year that Kobe didnt make Defensive first team since 2004-5

Wade is also at least as good a shooter as Kobe is.

mularky

Kobe's midrange shooting is better than Wade's and has been every year except 2010-11 when Kobe was having knee issues. Wade is a beast getting to the basket and finishing around the rim, but he struggles as a jump shooter. Kobe has the best midrange game in the NBA. And this is with Kobe taking difficult shots because a)his teammates give him the ball in tough situations b)he has a massive ego.

The major difference between Wade and Kobe is that Wade is a much better teammate/much less selfish, a far better passer, and a much, MUCH more efficient offensive player.

Wade is not a better passer than Kobe. I know you are basing it off assists, but Kobe played in the triangle most of his career which isnt a ball dominant offense like Wade played in Miami before Lebron.

Also, I always love the "Kobe is selfish" argument even though Kobe has 5 rings. The only thing Wade has over Kobe is that he is better around the basket than Kobe, but thats also because Wade attacks the basket more.

Also there's the fact Wade's 2006 finals performance is arguably the greatest individual finals performance in NBA history.

and Kobe scored 81 points in a game.... so?

Kobe wins by a landslide on freakish longevity. But at their apex, Wade was a better all around player. Hell they were probably at their primes at the same time.

Kobe is also the better and more complete player. Always has been, even Wade would admit that.

[Sticksboi05]

Wade's performance in the 2006 Finals should have an asterik because the officiating was so absurd it's hard to describe.

[Going Commando]

Kobe averaged 35 point a game one year. Wade averaged 30 one year. Nah, Kobe's prime is better than Wade's.

Ironic that you say this right after saying this about AI:

He was also a chucker and inefficient scorer.

If Iverson is an inefficient chucker, then so is Kobe.

I said Wade is a better defender today, but in his prime Kobe was a DPOY candidate. Wade has never been on that level. Shoot, this is the first year that Kobe didnt make Defensive first team since 2004-5

Kobe turns it on in crunch time and has had a reputation as being a good perimeter stopper late in games. But he wasn't the kind of all around defensive presence that Wade was when healthy. Wade can keep small speedsters in front of him or get into the paint and defend the rim. I don't think Kobe has ever had a reputation for doing either of those things.

mularky

Kobe's midrange shooting is better than Wade's and has been every year except 2010-11 when Kobe was having knee issues. Wade is a beast getting to the basket and finishing around the rim, but he struggles as a jump shooter. Kobe has the best midrange game in the NBA. And this is with Kobe taking difficult shots because a)his teammates give him the ball in tough situations b)he has a massive ego.

You are EXTREMELY overrating Kobe's shooting ability. Saying his midrange game is the best in the NBA is laughable. LeBron's mid range game is better and he's not even a shooter. Kevin Durant's absolutely blows Kobe's out of the water. Kobe's mid range game probably isn't even in the top 25.

Kobe has never been considered a particularly good shooter. He's average at best. Same with Wade.

Now Kobe is tremendous shooting around the basket. Great diversity of moves for creating space. If he's within 15 feet, he's tremendous. Put him in the mid range, freethrow line to 3 point line (15 to 23 feet) and he's nothing special. His shooting percentages aren't subpar simply because he takes terrible shots so often, but also because he's not a great shooter.

Wade is not a better passer than Kobe. I know you are basing it off assists, but Kobe played in the triangle most of his career which isnt a ball dominant offense like Wade played in Miami before Lebron.

Umm, yes, Wade is a better passer. I'm surprised you would seriously claim he isn't. He's a terrific drive and dish ball handler who can facilitate teammates and is a legit triple double threat. He could run point in almost any offensive system if needed. You could NEVER say that about Kobe. Wade is also an infinitely more willing passer.

Also, I always love the "Kobe is selfish" argument even though Kobe has 5 rings. The only thing Wade has over Kobe is that he is better around the basket than Kobe, but thats also because Wade attacks the basket more.

Now you're just getting absurd. Kobe is one of the most stunningly selfish players of the era. Kobe is about himself first and foremost and he's got a trail of bodies of teammates he's thrown under the bus and entire years where he's decided he's just going to get his, playoff series where he decided to hang his teams out to dry to prove a point.

Saying Kobe isn't selfish is ridiculous. Having five rings doesn't mean he's not a selfish player. There was maybe a two or three year run at the end of the decade where you could say Kobe was actually playing great team ball. Then last year, it's back to watching him mentally tick off the points until he breaks the scoring record. He's amazingly selfish.

and Kobe scored 81 points in a game.... so?

How is that in any way equivalent to having one of the greatest finals in NBA history?

Kobe is also the better and more complete player. Always has been, even Wade would admit that.

Kobe is the better and more complete scorer. There's a difference. Wade is a better passer, better teammate, more versatile defender, and vastly more efficient scorer.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

Ironic that you say this right after saying this about AI:

If Iverson is an inefficient chucker, then so is Kobe.

the season Kobe shoots 40% in an NBA season would be his first. Iverson shot 39% one season, ffs, lol.

Kobe turns it on in crunch time and has had a reputation as being a good perimeter stopper late in games. But he wasn't the kind of all around defensive presence that Wade was when healthy. Wade can keep small speedsters in front of him or get into the paint and defend the rim. I don't think Kobe has ever had a reputation for doing either of those things.

I see, you rate the highlight reel moments more than actual defending. One of the best defensive perimeter performances I have ever seen was when Kobe held Iverson to 0 points in the 2nd half in a regular season game in 2000 after Iverson went off in the first. Wade couldnt guard a 30 year old Iverson.

You are EXTREMELY overrating Kobe's shooting ability. Saying his midrange game is the best in the NBA is laughable. LeBron's mid range game is better and he's not even a shooter. Kevin Durant's absolutely blows Kobe's out of the water. Kobe's mid range game probably isn't even in the top 25.

Kobe has never been considered a particularly good shooter. He's average at best. Same with Wade.

you may as well be trolling with those statements. Lebron and Wade dont shoot at as good a clip as Kobe from 10-15 and 16-23 feet, and this is with Kobe taking a majority of his shots from those range. Both of those dudes get to the basket better now (Kobe was as good at getting to the rim earlier in his career but he is old and his knee is hot) but they dont have better jumpers than Kobe.

Now Kobe is tremendous shooting around the basket. Great diversity of moves for creating space. If he's within 15 feet, he's tremendous. Put him in the mid range, freethrow line to 3 point line (15 to 23 feet) and he's nothing special. His shooting percentages aren't subpar simply because he takes terrible shots so often, but also because he's not a great shooter.

the stats say you are wrong. You should look it up before presenting this as a fact.

Wade was improving at that, but he fell off tremendously the last few years.

Umm, yes, Wade is a better passer. I'm surprised you would seriously claim he isn't. He's a terrific drive and dish ball handler who can facilitate teammates and is a legit triple double threat. He could run point in almost any offensive system if needed. You could NEVER say that about Kobe. Wade is also an infinitely more willing passer.

I didnt say Wade wasnt a tremendous passer, you have added that to my post. I said Kobe is a better passer. Both are tremendous at it. I said you are probably basing Wade's passing abilities based on his assists whereas Kobe had to play in a triangle offense most of his career so his assists stats were never that high.

Now you're just getting absurd. Kobe is one of the most stunningly selfish players of the era. Kobe is about himself first and foremost and he's got a trail of bodies of teammates he's thrown under the bus and entire years where he's decided he's just going to get his, playoff series where he decided to hang his teams out to dry to prove a point.

Saying Kobe isn't selfish is ridiculous. Having five rings doesn't mean he's not a selfish player. There was maybe a two or three year run at the end of the decade where you could say Kobe was actually playing great team ball. Then last year, it's back to watching him mentally tick off the points until he breaks the scoring record. He's amazingly selfish.

and im the one being absurd

and last year, Kobe had to take shots. They had no point guard, no offensive identity and Bynum and Gasol were head cases. If he didnt, they would not have made the playoffs. I will say that dude has bad shot selection at times, but Kobe is only as selfish as his teammates are bad/not performing. Thats how he has always been. He had no problems passing to Robert Horry, Brian Shaw, obvs Shaq, etc but then somehow became selfish because he wouldnt pass it to Chris Mihm, Kwame Brown, and Smush Parker.

How is that in any way equivalent to having one of the greatest finals in NBA history?

how isnt it? Its the 2nd greatest scoring day in NBA history. The point I am making is bringing that up adds nothing to your argument, just like Kobe scoring 81 points in a game adds nothing to my argument. It was a statement that was supposed to sound good but means nothing because it was one performance.

Kobe is the better and more complete scorer. There's a difference. Wade is a better passer, better teammate, more versatile defender, and vastly more efficient scorer.

Kobe is a better scorer, better shooter, better ball handler, better defender, better leader, better player, and better champion.

[Shabby]

but then somehow became selfish because he wouldnt pass it to Chris Mihm, Kwame Brown, and Smush Parker.

Did you see LeBron's cleveland teams? Or Wades Miami teams? They had crappy teams and were never called selfish. Theres a reason why you hear a lot of people saying Kobe is selfish. He has driven players out, driven the greatest coach of all time out.

how isnt it? Its the 2nd greatest scoring day in NBA history. The point I am making is bringing that up adds nothing to your argument, just like Kobe scoring 81 points in a game adds nothing to my argument. It was a statement that was supposed to sound good but means nothing because it was one performance.

I dont even like wade but this made me laugh lol youre comparing one game in the regular season against the raptors, 81 points is an amazing performance, not saying it isnt, but comparing it to an entire series in the finals where wade completely took over the series, one of the best performances in nba FINALS history, and winning the championship?

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

Did you see LeBron's cleveland teams? Or Wades Miami teams? They had crappy teams and were never called selfish. Theres a reason why you hear a lot of people saying Kobe is selfish. He has driven players out, driven the greatest coach of all time out.

in Miami, Wade had guys like Michael Beasley, Shawn Marion, Mario Chalmers, James Jones, Jamaal Magloire.

again, Kobe had Smush Parker, Chris Mihm, Brian Cook, Kwame Brown, and some other bums. Parker and Mihm arent even in the NBA right now and their careers were pretty much over after they left LA. Cook is a 13th man in the NBA right now and we all know about Kwame Brown. 3 of those guys I named started games. If Kobe wasnt shooting, they dont make teh playoffs. Wade had a lot more talent around him in Miami than Kobe did in LA the post Shaq/pre NBA title years.

the only time Wade had a crappy team was when Shaq quit and got traded and Pat Riley alienated everyone in 2007-8. Also, Wade was injured most of that year.

People like calling Kobe selfish because Kobe is aloof and a jerk. Phil Jackson encouraged Kobe to shoot because they had no one else on those teams. When he got adequate teammates, it became "Kobe finally learned to play team ball" etc when his shooting totals were not that dissimilar.

I dont even like wade but this made me laugh lol youre comparing one game in the regular season against the raptors, 81 points is an amazing performance, not saying it isnt, but comparing it to an entire series in the finals where wade completely took over the series, one of the best performances in nba FINALS history, and winning the championship?

yes, yes I will compare it because it adds nothing to the convo. Just like saying "wade had one of the best finals performances ever" to make a case that Wade is better than Kobe. Its a nothing statement, just like Kobe scored 81 points in a game is a nothing statement.

I could also say Kobe had one of the greatest post season runs ever in 2001, but that would add nothing as well.

---------- Post added July-22nd-2012 at 03:44 PM ----------

and with Lebron, of course. He is more of a passer than a scorer anyway. Kobe is a scorer.

[deejaydana]

1. Jordan
   
2. Kobe
   
3. West
   
4. The Ice Man, George Gervin
   
5. Iverson
   -----------------------------------------------------
   
6. Clyde Drexler
   
7. Dwyane Wade
   
8. Pistol Pete Maravich
   
9. Ray Allen
   
10. Reggie Miller
    

What stands out to me on that top 10, is how much the second 5 drop off (generally) from the top 5. Not that the bottom half is in any way shabby. This is a completely subjective thread (which is what makes it fun to debate).

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

What stands out to me on that top 10, is how much the second 5 drop off (generally) from the top 5. Not that the bottom half is in any way shabby. This is a completely subjective thread (which is what makes it fun to debate).

the 2Guard is historically the weakest position in the NBA. Only since Gervin and Jordan did they start becoming more important. Its why you look at that list and most of the players are from the last 30 years.

[RonArtest15]

I don't know if he was mentioned, but you can make a case for Tracy McGrady being the best 2-guard in the NBA for a 3 year stretch....if that's too generous, then the 02-03 season he could be argued as the cream of the crop.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

I don't know if he was mentioned, but you can make a case for Tracy McGrady being the best 2-guard in the NBA for a 3 year stretch....if that's too generous, then the 02-03 season he could be argued as the cream of the crop.

yeah, I said this earlier. If people are putting Sidney Moncrief in their top 5/10 list, then McGrady better be above him.

[deejaydana]

the 2Guard is historically the weakest position in the NBA. Only since Gervin and Jordan did they start becoming more important. Its why you look at that list and most of the players are from the last 30 years.

Yeah, I know my NBA but I didn't even know Gervin was considered a shooting guard. He's a little before my time but I should have known that I suppose. We could get even further into the weeds with these threads and do a "best 3 point shooter" or even a "best 6th man" thread but the Mods might consider that excessive which, well, it probably would be.

[Going Commando]

the season Kobe shoots 40% in an NBA season would be his first. Iverson shot 39% one season, ffs, lol.

What you use to defend Kobe's subpar shooting percentages was Iverson in the extreme. If Iverson is an inefficient chucker, so is Kobe. Kobe's also six or seven inches taller and 40 pounds heavier than Iverson FWIW.

I see, you rate the highlight reel moments more than actual defending. One of the best defensive perimeter performances I have ever seen was when Kobe held Iverson to 0 points in the 2nd half in a regular season game in 2000 after Iverson went off in the first. Wade couldnt guard a 30 year old Iverson.

No, actually you're doing that in this very statement. You're pointing out one performance in one half when I was talking about more general skills. Wade was a better defender than Kobe. He's much more versatile, and he's gotten better results team-wise. Miami has been the best or second best all around defense in the league the past two seasons and he's one half of the reason why.

you may as well be trolling with those statements. Lebron and Wade dont shoot at as good a clip as Kobe from 10-15 and 16-23 feet, and this is with Kobe taking a majority of his shots from those range. Both of those dudes get to the basket better now (Kobe was as good at getting to the rim earlier in his career but he is old and his knee is hot) but they dont have better jumpers than Kobe

Neither Wade nor LeBron are shooters! But LeBron is a far better and more efficient shooter than Kobe and Wade is just as average as Kobe is. The ridiculous, trollish statement was saying Kobe has the best mid range game in the NBA. That's completely absurd. I was pointing out how a guy with a very mediocre mid range game (LeBron) was actually better and more effective than Kobe.

Mid range game is defined as 15-23 feet. Inside 15? Kobe is great and probably is the best in the league. He's also solid enough from 3. But from mid range Kobe is inefficient and unremarkable. There are easily at least 25 players in the NBA better from that range than Kobe. Hell, bigs like Chris Bosh and Kevin Garnett are better from that range than Kobe.

the stats say you are wrong. You should look it up before presenting this as a fact.

LOL. What stats are you using? It's straight up common knowledge Kobe's not a great shooter.

Here are some stats for you:

-- Kobe finished 89th in jump shot % this year league wide.

-- Kobe finished 58th last year

-- 54th the year before

-- 59th in 08/09

-- 96th in 07/08

-- 57th in 06/07

-- 61st in 05/06

-- 180th in 04/05

-- 169th in 03/04

-- 55th in 02/03

-- 63rd in 01/02

-- 182nd in 00/01

Those numbers don't even truly reflect how ordinary/subpar his midrange game is either because they include his jumpers close to the basket, where he is admittedly excellent. They only exclude layups, dunks, hook shots, and tip ins.

I didnt say Wade wasnt a tremendous passer, you have added that to my post. I said Kobe is a better passer. Both are tremendous at it. I said you are probably basing Wade's passing abilities based on his assists whereas Kobe had to play in a triangle offense most of his career so his assists stats were never that high.

This is simply absurd Kobe apologia. Kobe's assists would be higher if he actually passed it instead of going into prolong periods of gunning. "It was the offense! It made him be selfish!" Give me a break... Jordan ran the same offense more or less and by the time Phil Jackson replaced Doug Collins, he was never really considered selfish. Jordan actually passed the ball and knew how to get his teammates into the games early.

and last year, Kobe had to take shots. They had no point guard, no offensive identity and Bynum and Gasol were head cases. If he didnt, they would not have made the playoffs. I will say that dude has bad shot selection at times, but Kobe is only as selfish as his teammates are bad/not performing. Thats how he has always been. He had no problems passing to Robert Horry, Brian Shaw, obvs Shaq, etc but then somehow became selfish because he wouldnt pass it to Chris Mihm, Kwame Brown, and Smush Parker.

More Kobe apologia. "He was selfish because he had to be!" and "it's his teammates' fault he's so selfish!" have been used for years to try and defend him. It's bull**** of course. There is no excuse for playing selfish because it's always counterproductive in a TEAM game. Kobe's just been able to get away with it for years and years because he was able to win in spite of his selfishness. And no small part of that has been because his teammates forced themselves to adjust to him and have provided dominant low post play.

how isnt it? Its the 2nd greatest scoring day in NBA history. The point I am making is bringing that up adds nothing to your argument, just like Kobe scoring 81 points in a game adds nothing to my argument. It was a statement that was supposed to sound good but means nothing because it was one performance.

You're simply being ridiculous if you think that 81 was anywhere close to as meaningful as Wade's 2006 finals. One regular season game against the Raptors in a year where your team was a late seed squad and first round out is nowhere near as meaningful as putting your team on your back for arguably the greatest individual finals performance against a favored opponent that went up 2-0 on you. 81 points on 46 shots in a relatively meaningless midseason game for a mediocre team against the Raptors is a nifty footnote in your career. Notching the highest PER in NBA Finals history as you put your team on your back en route to your franchise's first ever championship is a legacy maker.

Kobe is a better scorer, better shooter, better ball handler, better defender, better leader, better player, and better champion.

Kobe is a better scorer and may be a marginally better shooter (he's certainly not strong here), but he's not a better ball handler and a better defender. Better leader is subjective and I have a hard time imagining you can support that. Better player only on the scoring end. Better champion in the sense that he has more rings, but a lot of that is from his remarkable longevity giving the Lakers years and years to surround him with dominant low post talent. I was talking about taking each player at their absolute best anyway.

---------- Post added July-22nd-2012 at 06:05 PM ----------

yeah, I said this earlier. If people are putting Sidney Moncrief in their top 5/10 list, then McGrady better be above him.

What are you basing this on? Neither had long primes, but at each of their peaks, Moncrieff was clearly the better player.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

What you use to defend Kobe's subpar shooting percentages was Iverson in the extreme. If Iverson is an inefficient chucker, so is Kobe. Kobe's also six or seven inches taller and 40 pounds heavier than Iverson FWIW.

No, actually you're doing that in this very statement. You're pointing out one performance in one half when I was talking about more general skills. Wade was a better defender than Kobe. He's much more versatile, and he's gotten better results team-wise. Miami has been the best or second best all around defense in the league the past two seasons and he's one half of the reason why.

so? Iverson killed players bigger and taller than him. It means nothing, lol.

And I value on the ball defense over a guy who makes spectacular plays on defense. Its a big reason why Tim Duncan never won DPOY even though he was the best interior player in the NBA by a distance.

Dwyane Wade is not a more versatile defender than Kobe Bryant. And lol at "he's gotten better results team-wise" even though Kobe has 5 titles. Thats hilarious. The day Kobe is on a team that loses 67 games in a season will be the first.

Neither Wade nor LeBron are shooters! But LeBron is a far better and more efficient shooter than Kobe and Wade is just as average as Kobe is. The ridiculous, trollish statement was saying Kobe has the best mid range game in the NBA. That's completely absurd. I was pointing out how a guy with a very mediocre mid range game (LeBron) was actually better and more effective than Kobe.

Mid range game is defined as 15-23 feet. Inside 15? Kobe is great and probably is the best in the league. He's also solid enough from 3. But from mid range Kobe is inefficient and unremarkable. There are easily at least 25 players in the NBA better from that range than Kobe. Hell, bigs like Chris Bosh and Kevin Garnett are better from that range than Kobe.

LOL. What stats are you using? It's straight up common knowledge Kobe's not a great shooter.

Here are some stats for you:

-- Kobe finished 89th in jump shot % this year league wide.

-- Kobe finished 58th last year

-- 54th the year before

-- 59th in 08/09

-- 96th in 07/08

-- 57th in 06/07

-- 61st in 05/06

-- 180th in 04/05

-- 169th in 03/04

-- 55th in 02/03

-- 63rd in 01/02

-- 182nd in 00/01

Those numbers don't even truly reflect how ordinary/subpar his midrange game is either because they include his jumpers close to the basket, where he is admittedly excellent. They only exclude layups, dunks, hook shots, and tip ins.

*sigh*

I have no idea where you got those figures from, but they look suspect. Not because a lot of guys dont shoot a higher percent from midrange than Kobe, but because we have no idea how many attempts those players are getting.

anyway, here are the numbers since they started keeping the midrange shooting statistics in 2007

Wade

2007: 38%

2008: 37%

2009: 42%

2010: 36%

2011: 37%

2012: 37%

Lebron:

2007: 34%

2008: 37%

2009: 40%

2010: 40%

2011: 45%

2012: 39%

Kobe:

2007: 42%

2008: 38%

2009: 42%

2010: 41%

2011: 38%

2012: 41%

Kobe and Lebron are relatively even, while Wade is no where near close.

And if you look at the attempts stats, Kobe takes 1-2 more shots a game from 16-23 feet than those two, and Bron and Wade take more 2-3 shots around the rim than Kobe. Basically, you were talking out your behind saying Kobe converts more put backs and shots around the baskets, etc.

Those numbers are from www.hoopdata.com, but they are also listed on basketball reference. I wish those numbers were around before 2007.

I would still take Kobe's mid range game over both of those guys, but Bron has a slightly higher percentage while Wade isnt even close. So this stuff about Wade being a better shooter than Kobe is just incorrect. Its not true and has never been true.

Bosh and Garnett do have better mid range jumpers conversion percentages than Kobe does. Thats the only think you said correct in that post. As long as you also admit its better than Bron's and Wade's.

This is simply absurd Kobe apologia. Kobe's assists would be higher if he actually passed it instead of going into prolong periods of gunning. "It was the offense! It made him be selfish!" Give me a break... Jordan ran the same offense more or less and by the time Phil Jackson replaced Doug Collins, he was never really considered selfish. Jordan actually passed the ball and knew how to get his teammates into the games early.

well thats just flat out untrue. Jordan was considered a very selfish player until he won an NBA title.

Also, Jordan's assist numbers declined after Phil Jackson became head coach. He never averaged above 6 assists a game after Jackson became coach.

More Kobe apologia. "He was selfish because he had to be!" and "it's his teammates' fault he's so selfish!" have been used for years to try and defend him. It's bull**** of course. There is no excuse for playing selfish because it's always counterproductive in a TEAM game. Kobe's just been able to get away with it for years and years because he was able to win in spite of his selfishness. And no small part of that has been because his teammates forced themselves to adjust to him and have provided dominant low post play.

I didnt say Kobe played selfish, I said Kobe had to shoot more to keep his team in the game. Thats a true statement. Sometimes giving the ball to Smush Parker to take 15 shots a game is not a good way to win a game.. Neither is giving the ball to Kwame Brown to shoot 15 times a game. I dont believe that is being selfish, I believe that is doing the best you can to win a game.

And im stunned how you can win a title by being an extremely selfish player. It makes no sense, but you've made your mind up there.

and I love the dominant low post play, as if Kobe being the best low post 2guard in the NBA had nothing to do with it. Like Pau Gasol was this juggernaut in Memphis (1 all star game, zero playoff wins before he came to LA). Shaq was a juggernaut, but he doesnt get out of the Western Conference were it not for Kobe killing the Spurs as they did a good job of keeping Shaq in check.

You're simply being ridiculous if you think that 81 was anywhere close to as meaningful as Wade's 2006 finals. One regular season game against the Raptors in a year where your team was a late seed squad and first round out is nowhere near as meaningful as putting your team on your back for arguably the greatest individual finals performance against a favored opponent that went up 2-0 on you. 81 points on 46 shots in a relatively meaningless midseason game for a mediocre team against the Raptors is a nifty footnote in your career. Notching the highest PER in NBA Finals history as you put your team on your back en route to your franchise's first ever championship is a legacy maker.

you realize there have been TV specials about that 81 point game? It was on Championship game Sunday, and Kobe's performance was actually the lead story Sportscenter over those games and the biggest story in America the next day.

Wade's finals performance was incredible, but more talk about Kobe getting 81 points than Wade's performance in those finals.

If you dont like that, how about I say that Kobe had one of the best post season ever in 2001?

But my real point is using one moment as a point to say a player is better than the other is ridiculous. It doesnt say anything.

Kobe is a better scorer and may be a marginally better shooter (he's certainly not strong here), but he's not a better ball handler and a better defender. Better leader is subjective and I have a hard time imagining you can support that. Better player only on the scoring end. Better champion in the sense that he has more rings, but a lot of that is from his remarkable longevity giving the Lakers years and years to surround him with dominant low post talent. I was talking about taking each player at their absolute best anyway.

Again with this Gasol is a dominant low post talent thing again. He isnt, and never was.

Kobe is a better player than Wade. In their primes, Kobe is a better player. All time, Kobe will be seen as a better player. Kobe is a better player than Dwyane Wade right now too, and was better last season. He is a better player.

[Sticksboi05]

Yeah, I mean there's not much argument for Wade over Kobe. And he's not as good a defensive player just because he has a bit more size. In his prime he did not put as much effort into D as Kobe did.

[AsiaticSkinsFan]

What are you basing this on? Neither had long primes, but at each of their peaks, Moncrieff was clearly the better player.

Tracy McGrady was an all nba player 5 times (same as Moncrief). Was a better scorer, got more rebounds, and dished out more assists than Moncrief.

Moncrief was an incredible defender, but McGrady was the better player in their primes.

McGrady's post season numbers also destroy Moncrief's.

---------- Post added July-22nd-2012 at 06:45 PM ----------

Yeah, I mean there's not much argument for Wade over Kobe. And he's not as good a defensive player just because he has a bit more size. In his prime he did not put as much effort into D as Kobe did.

im confused, does stevemcqueen1 not like Kobe or something?

[deejaydana]

To say that Kobe's not a strong shooter is just hilariously funny to me. While he's never seen a shot he didn't want to take, just look at the way he's STILL defended in the final minute of a game. Has there EVER been a better CLUTCH shooter? He's maybe the most clutch shooter the league has ever seen. Imho he's firmly entrenched @ #2 in the shooting guard category.