SportingNews.com: NFL rankings: Coaches queue starts with Tom Coughlin, Bill Belichick (in other words, it's a power ranking of the coaches lol)

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

Shanny is building us a winner. I have no doubts about that. I'm not a huge "stats" guy...I think they are useful, but don't always tell the whole story. I'm a bigger fan of the "eye test", when it comes to players and coaches.

When I give Shanny the eye test, he very much appears to still be capable of putting together a deadly squad. And most importantly, I think the players believe that. Changing the culture of a losing franchise takes time. The only thing that can do it, is winning football games. And I think that once this team gets a taste of winning on a regular basis...look out.

[Brotherz]

You have to be kidding with this list. John Harbaugh? Are you kidding? Even Zorn opened 6-2 before the rest of the league got a book on him. He needs to do it again before I start putting him ahead of guys who have climbed to the top of the mountaint multiple times.

So John Fox is a stud but that's not based on his past? Why because they went to the playoffs last year? Really?

Lovie Smith? You're kidding right?

Marvin Lewis? Cmon. This thing loses all credibility right there.

Kubiak? Kubiak is just shanny light!

Its ridiculous.

---------- Post added May-28th-2012 at 04:05 PM ----------

Shanahan has had 1 winning season in 7 attempts without Gary Kubiak. With Kubiak, Shanahan had 8 winning seasons in 11 attempts, with 2 super bowls, only 1 season below 8-8, and 5 seasons with 11 or more wins. Shanahan has never been to the playoffs without Kubiak. Shanahan has also never had a top 10 offense without Kubiak as OC. Kubiak has 2 winning seasons in 6 attempts without Shanahan, including bringing the horrid Texans to a respectable 8-8 by his second season. He has had only 2 losing seasons in 6 attempts without Shanahan. His offenses have consistently been among the very best in the league, and his team was a super bowl contender last season before having the season derailed by injuries to key players.

I don't see any problem putting Kubiak above Shanahan. If the Texans offered to trade Kubiak to the Skins for Shanahan, I would take that deal no questions asked

You mean Kyle Shanahan right? You're not actually saying you'd trade Gary Kubiak for MIKE shannahan are you? I appreciate how many superbowls they won when Mike was head coach but how many has kubiak won as head coach?

[2cents]

What people forget to take in to account when they talk about the Shanny/Kubiak thing is that there was so much more going on around the Broncos at the time besides just Kubiak leaving. Nice try, but again, look at the whole picture not just the O-coordinator/QB coach leaving. Older team, Elway retired, RB hurt, rebuild the D, injuries....so much more to the whole picture.

[Hitman21ST]

The difference is that Shanahan no longer has Elway, while Belicheck still has Brady, Coughlin still has Eli, etc.

Besides Gibbs, EVERY coach who has won multiple Super Bowls did it with the same QB. Yet Shanahan is the ONLY one who this seems to be a drawback for.

Why doesn't Jimmy Johnson get criticized for not winning without Aikman, or Walsh without Montana? Riddle me that ncr2h.

[rskin72]

The Chargers have been in the playoffs three times under Norv......now, you can argue that it was with a Marty-built team, but.......just sayin'

No, but what I can argue is that all the talking heads thought that he had a SB contender a couple of seasons ago....and yet they choke in the first round of the playoffs. SD has had a ton of talent on their teams recently, but underachieved with Norv as their guide.

But, my problems with Norv really harken back to when he was a coach here. He went 49-59-1 with one good season at 10-6. To me, he has always gotten far to much love as a HEAD coach. He is a good/great O coordinator but not a head coach IMHO. I told a Bolts buddy of mine several years ago when he was hired by SD that they would never get to the SB under Turner, and I have not been proven wrong. I will admit that some on that list are worse than Norv.....but not many.

[Voice_of_Reason]

This is silly. I'm not going to say that Shanny is the best coach in football. Here are the ones that I think are GREAT:

-Belichick. Hard to argue. However, if you were to argue, you'd ask: How did Belichick do without Brady? Answer: He got fired from the Browns, and things were ok in NE with Bledsoe, but he wasn't going to win anything.

-Coughlin: He's a damn good coach. Look back at his record in Jax, he took an expansion franchise and got it to the AFC Championship in year 2 or 3. (Oh, btw, handing Shanny his worst playoff loss ever). And he's managed to keep the Giants competitive for his tenure. And I just don't believe he's ever been as much on the hot seat as the media thinks he is.

-I'd take John Fox or Jeff Fisher as my HC any day of the week, and twice on Sunday. They have consistently brought a knife to a gun fight, and consistently won. Both coaches know how to coach. If their new teams provide them with more ammunition, they will both be extremely competitive. And if Peyton is Peyton, they will represent in the AFC Championship this year. Book it.

Then there are a bunch of "second tier" coaches. I'd lump Shanny in this group. I don't think you could go wrong with any of them.

-McArthy and Tomlin are good coaches coaching really well established teams with superstar quarterbacks. Neither one had to deal with rebuilding a franchise, and neither have 2 SBs. (Yet. I'm sure they both will get a second eventually.)

-Shanahan: In Denver, his teams were always competitive. Especially offensively. If he hadn't signed so many damn ex-Browns to play defense, he might still be there.

-Andy Reid: Last year was more of the aberration than the rule. Generally, the Eagles look well coached, well prepared, and just go about their business. If Vick plays well this season, they are going to be very tough to beat.

Then there are the seriously over-rated because they are big, fat, loud, or obnoxious:

-The Harbaugh brothers? Really? Please. One has his team choke in the playoffs every year, the other has been around for a new york minute. Both are good coaches, but the Ravens have to make the SB and Jim has to have a larger sample size before he can receive credit. If Alex Smith regresses, and they win 8 games this year, people will be questioning what they hell they were thinking last year.

-Rex Ryan: He's a great defensive coach. But this year might sink him.

-Marvin Lewis, Lovie Smith, Gary Kubiak, Ken Whisenhunt? Really? PLEASE.(I actually like all of these guys, but if they took over the 'Skins when Shanny did, they would probably have been fired by now, and rightfully so.)

[elkabong82]

Yeah, I also don't get the bias and negative viewpoints of Shanahan "only" winning super bowls with Elway. The same crap can be said about any great coach. How many championships did Belicheat win without Brady? How many championships did Jimmy Johnson win without Aikman? Walsh without Montana? Caughlin never won **** without Eli, and he's constantly been on the hot seat, save for two miracle finishes where his team beat the odds and won the super bowl. Yet, it seems like it's Shanahan that gets knocked for not winning multiple SB's with different QB's. That argument gets real old, real quick.

And by the same logic, Gibbs should be considered the greatest coach ever, but he typically maybe gets top 5 consideration, maybe.

[ncr2h]

What people forget to take in to account when they talk about the Shanny/Kubiak thing is that there was so much more going on around the Broncos at the time besides just Kubiak leaving. Nice try, but again, look at the whole picture not just the O-coordinator/QB coach leaving. Older team, Elway retired, RB hurt, rebuild the D, injuries....so much more to the whole picture.

Elway retired in like 1999. In 2005, the Broncos were sporting a 13-3 record with pro bowler Jake Plummer as their QB. They lose to the eventual SB champs. Kubiak leaves that offseason.

Plummer starts the next season 7-2, although not having a stellar statistical season himself. After a 2 game losing streak drops the Broncos to 7-4, Shanahan puts in his new toy at QB. Broncos go 2-3 and miss the playoffs despite the 7-2 start. The rest is history - this was the last time Shanahan has had a winning record...6 seasons ago. I think an objective observer would have to say that Shanahan did what he could with Kubiak's offense but couldn't seal the deal in the ensuing season, and then afterwords couldn't keep the cupboard stocked because his offense isn't potent without Kubiak.

Kubiak, meanwhile has put together a solid head coaching resume, turning around arguably the worst franchise in the league with a cupboard that was almost completely bare.

---------- Post added May-28th-2012 at 07:02 PM ----------

Besides Gibbs, EVERY coach who has won multiple Super Bowls did it with the same QB. Yet Shanahan is the ONLY one who this seems to be a drawback for.

Why doesn't Jimmy Johnson get criticized for not winning without Aikman, or Walsh without Montana? Riddle me that ncr2h.

You're setting up some side argument. The reality is that Belichick DOES have Brady...right now. Coughlin DOES have Eli. So only a fool would put Shanahan without his QB over high-caliber coaches with their QBs. This isn't a discussion about Shanahan's legacy as a coach. This is about what can he do in the league today. And the answer is probably a lot less than those other two guys.

[KCClybun]

Elway retired in like 1999. In 2005, the Broncos were sporting a 13-3 record with pro bowler Jake Plummer as their QB. They lose to the eventual SB champs. Kubiak leaves that offseason.

Plummer starts the next season 7-2, although not having a stellar statistical season himself. After a 2 game losing streak drops the Broncos to 7-4, Shanahan puts in his new toy at QB. Broncos go 2-3 and miss the playoffs despite the 7-2 start. The rest is history - this was the last time Shanahan has had a winning record...6 seasons ago. I think an objective observer would have to say that Shanahan did what he could with Kubiak's offense but couldn't seal the deal in the ensuing season, and then afterwords couldn't keep the cupboard stocked because his offense isn't potent without Kubiak.

Kubiak, meanwhile has put together a solid head coaching resume, turning around arguably the worst franchise in the league with a cupboard that was almost completely bare.

...And you're saying our cupboard wasn't almost completely bare?

I always enjoy that argument, "Shanahan hasn't won anything without Kubiak." Um, Gary Kubiak has a grand total of two winning seasons in 6 years as head coach, with only one playoff win, and was damn close to being ****canned at the end of the 2010 season. His defenses (with two defensive coordinator he picked, including Frank Bush, who he promoted) ranked 24th, 24th, 22nd, 13th, and then 32nd on what is historically one of the worst defenses ever, before Rick Smith (not Gary Kubiak) hired Wade Phillips.

Yes yes, we all know the sad tale of Shanny benching Jake Plummer when they were 7-4 for Jay Cutler. The problem was, Plummer was kind of an *******, who also skipped out on OTA's and had a falling out with Mike. Not to mention Plummer had been playing eradictally that whole season. Two of those losses? They were back to back losses to division rivals San Diego and Kansas City. Versus San Diego that year, Plummer completed 46.5% of his passes, threw no touchdowns, and an interception to boot. Despite the fact they beat Oakland before that, Plummer threw 3 picks in that game. Plummer threw 11 touchdowns and 10 interceptions with 7 fumbles and 2 lost.

And sure, 2007 wasn't a great year for Shanny.

But as for not being able to field a potent offense without Kubiak? In 2008, the Broncos were ranked 2nd in total offense. Jay Cutler threw for 4,526 yards, 25 touchdowns and 18 ints, Brandon Marshall had 106 receptions 1,265 yard and 6 touchdowns, Eddie Royal had 91 catches for 908 yards and 5 touchdowns. Injuries to his backs (and he still managed to squeeze out 1,160 yards and 10 touchdowns on the ground between all the injured backs) and a bad defense were his downfall, but I'd say Shanny did just fine without Kubiak offensively. (Shanny's offense actually ranked higher than Kubiak's the year after he left).

If you want to make the argument that Kubiak has had more success than Shanahan has lately, be my guess. But claiming Shanahan's offense doesn't work without Kubiak is an outright lie, period, and Mike wasn't working with a tenth of what Kubiak. Yes, we were that bad, and that old.

[elkabong82]

Elway retired in like 1999. In 2005, the Broncos were sporting a 13-3 record with pro bowler Jake Plummer as their QB. They lose to the eventual SB champs. Kubiak leaves that offseason.

Plummer starts the next season 7-2, although not having a stellar statistical season himself. After a 2 game losing streak drops the Broncos to 7-4, Shanahan puts in his new toy at QB. Broncos go 2-3 and miss the playoffs despite the 7-2 start. The rest is history - this was the last time Shanahan has had a winning record...6 seasons ago. I think an objective observer would have to say that Shanahan did what he could with Kubiak's offense but couldn't seal the deal in the ensuing season, and then afterwords couldn't keep the cupboard stocked because his offense isn't potent without Kubiak.

Kubiak, meanwhile has put together a solid head coaching resume, turning around arguably the worst franchise in the league with a cupboard that was almost completely bare.

You're argument is basically that Shanahan isn't that good and owes all of his success to Kubiak. You ignore Kubiak's bad seasons and the fact it took him 6 seasons to get Houston to the playoffs. Kubiak is good, but it seems you're forgiving a lot of his weaknesses just to strengthen your case.

Plummer was a head case and very inconsistent, and reports were he lacked work ethic, which doesn't vibe w/ Shanahan as we all know. So Shanny went w/ his rookie QB. "Shanahan did what he could with Kubiak's offense"? So Shanny doesn't get credit for the 7-2 start despite his QB's inconsistencies?

Why does Kubiak get 6 seasons of building, but Shanahan w/ a rookie QB and retooling the offense you judge that season and on? Where is the consideration for the offensive players Shanny was bringing in, specifically Marshall, Hillis, Scheffler, and Clady. You also ignore the offensive success Shanny had after Kubiak, seemingly pretending it never happened.

The defense did Shanny in as HC of the Broncos, NOT the offense. The defense almost did Kubiak in. He brings Wade Phillips in and the Texans make the playoffs. Kubiak couldn't do it w/o a good defense in place. That was what also did Shanny in, and he learned his mistake, studied up on the 3-4, and the Skins D has been improving and has some promising players on that side of the ball.

Bottom line, Shanny and Kubiak are both good coaches, and tearing down one to give the other full credit is dishonest and conjecture. The Shanny w/o Kubiak argument is just as poor as the Shanny w/o Elway argument, IMO. Anybody who has been paying attention to the Redskins being built since Shanny can attest that he's a good coach.

Let's see if he takes an abysmal, mismanaged 4-12 Redskins team to the playoffs, and in less time than it took Kubiak to do it w/ the Texans.

[Rpredskins]

I think 16 is fair for Shanahan. An argument could be made for much worse.

Coughlin #1 give me a break. The dude was a couple bad bounces from getting fired.

[NoVaSkins21]

I think 16 is fair for Shanahan. An argument could be made for much worse.

Coughlin #1 give me a break. The dude was a couple bad bounces from getting fired.

Agreed with the first point. As far as the second point if this poll came out every 4 years, then yeah, Coughlin would definitely be #1. The guy is definitely the flavor of the month right now.

[Son of Gadsden]

Laughable, I see several coaches "rated" higher I'd rather have Shanny than.

Maybe I'm a homer, but there's not a coach in the NFL I'd rather have than Shanahan. He's the man for the job in my mind. Even if RG3 didn't work out, I'd be fine with keeping coach around, because I am confident he will find a way to win. If he can't, I don't believe anyone can.

[Going Commando]

Ranking is about coaching right? Team building shouldn't be a factor for consideration. It should just be about the tangible aspects of week to week coaching: game management, team management, x's and o's strategy, etc.

There are very few in Shanahan's class. He's an amazing coach, and I think a few people are taking his coaching ability for granted. I'd say the caliber of our coaching is pretty first rate now, something we haven't enjoyed for a long time.

Our coaching is far better now than it was during Gibbs 2.0.

You can't downgrade Shanahan the coach based on the problems he's created and faced as Shanahan the general manager. You can't even judge his quality as a team builder and general manager based entirely off the records of his last five or six years because he was rebuilding the roster of both the Broncos and our team for all of them.

[Son of Gadsden]

I think 16 is fair for Shanahan. An argument could be made for much worse.

Coughlin #1 give me a break. The dude was a couple bad bounces from getting fired.

Not even that, a couple whistle blows.

[ncr2h]

Let's see if he takes an abysmal, mismanaged 4-12 Redskins team to the playoffs, and in less time than it took Kubiak to do it w/ the Texans.

Ok - I won't hold my breath, though.

[Hitman21ST]

Ok - I won't hold my breath, though.

He has four more years to do it. That's more than enough time. You'll be surprised.

[pjfootballer]

Here's my question. Basically, they try to say Shanny sucks as a coach because he hasn't won without Elway. Well.....Coughlin hasn't won without Eli so why don't the "experts" say he is a lousy coach and can only win with Eli?

It goes the other way also. Elway didn't win until he had Shanahan.

---------- Post added May-29th-2012 at 03:08 PM ----------

**** Tom Coughlin. He's constantly the #1 on the list of "coach nobody wants to play for" and Giants fans are typically calling for him to get fired at some point midseason (like they were after they lost to us and went to 7-7). It's not thanks to Coughlin the Giants got every single big break possible in their last 2 super bowl runs.

In my own talley, they have an asterisk next to these last 2 SBs.

---------- Post added May-29th-2012 at 03:11 PM ----------

Results don't lie. I'm not a Giants fan but I recognize that Coughlin has earned the right to be #1.

If the criteria was only "who won the last SB" you'd have a point, so when the power rankings put in other factors, I don't think he is the clear cut #1, I hate to say this, but Belichick is the measuring stick of all coaches right now. 5 SB appearance, playoffs every year, an undefeated regular season and umpteen division and conference titles within the last 12 years.

---------- Post added May-29th-2012 at 03:14 PM ----------

Tom Coughlin was there for two Super Bowls, yes. Like Gruden was there, except he did it twice. Good for him. That's an accomplishment that many will never have.

However, he had nothing to do with it. Eli, as much as it pains me to say it, won those games.

I'd give 1/2 credit to the Giants defense for those 2 SB wins. Eli led the winning drives both times, but that defense held this decades most proliferous offense to 15.5 ppg in 2 games.

---------- Post added May-29th-2012 at 03:22 PM ----------

Kubiak also could never win the division until the Colts went into total meltdown and their star QB was shelved the entire year without playing a down.

[elkabong82]

Ok - I won't hold my breath, though.

While the rest of us enjoy watching RG3 take this team to the postseason I guess you'll be the one pouting in the corner? Or will you will be Randy Quaid in Major League 2, where you claim the team sucks the whole time right up until they win in the postseason, and then you claim you knew they'd be good the whole time?

I just don't get how you can excuse Kubiak for 6 seasons, yet you're crapping on Shanahan despite what he's brought to this team in 2 season/3 offseasons, all despite a strike-shortened offseason, a terrible FA market due to no CBA his first season with us. You give Kubiak the benefit of the doubt for inheriting a bad Texans team, but Shanny doesn't get the same consideration for the bad Skins team he got. Did he do something to you personally that makes you so lopsided in how you view him vs. Kubiak?

[JoeSkins]

Laughable, I see several coaches "rated" higher I'd rather have Shanny than.

I see about three that would be slam-dunk downgrades, as well.

[Going Commando]

Shanahan taught Kubiak what he knows about being a head coach. He's simply not a better head coach than Shanahan.

Mike is to offensive Xs and Os what Belichik is to defense. There really isn't a better tactical offensive mind than his in the game. Others like Sean Payton might come close, but at this point, Shanny is the elder statesman of the game. And he's the whole package as administrator and manager.

When Mike was just an OC working for Seifert, you could see his true Xs and Os and pure coaching ability in that ridiculous 49ers offense.

[brdawk20]

If the criteria was only "who won the last SB" you'd have a point, so when the power rankings put in other factors, I don't think he is the clear cut #1, I hate to say this, but Belichick is the measuring stick of all coaches right now. 5 SB appearance, playoffs every year, an undefeated regular season and umpteen division and conference titles within the last 12 years.

I'm not talking about winning the last SB. I'm talking about taking an expansion team to the AFCCG in his second year. I'm talking about winning two SB's in five years with as many injuries over those years than almost any other team.

And all this Eli talk makes me laugh. Some posters say TC won with an elite QB, while others are saying that he won because of his defense and not an average QB in Eli (you guys aren't alone in this--see the Eagles and Cowturds MB arguments over whether or not Eli is elite). Guess who put the team together and made them work as a unit? Yep, the head coach. Coaching is not a matter of throwing your best guys on the field and telling them to go win. The best players don't always win. If that were always the case, no one in sports history would have more rings than Wilt Chamberlain. But that's not the way it works.

[pjfootballer]

I'm not talking about winning the last SB. I'm talking about taking an expansion team to the AFCCG in his second year. I'm talking about winning two SB's in five years with as many injuries over those years than almost any other team.

And all this Eli talk makes me laugh. Some posters say TC won with an elite QB, while others are saying that he won because of his defense and not an average QB in Eli (you guys aren't alone in this--see the Eagles and Cowturds MB arguments over whether or not Eli is elite). Guess who put the team together and made them work as a unit? Yep, the head coach. Coaching is not a matter of throwing your best guys on the field and telling them to go win. The best players don't always win. If that were always the case, no one in sports history would have more rings than Wilt Chamberlain. But that's not the way it works.

And even with adding his time in Jax, I still wouldn't even put him in the top 10 using that time frame (1995-present). And Barry Switzer says hello, look at my ring, I did nothing but tell the players to go play. But seriously, Belichick, Shanahan, Cowher, Holmgren, Parcells, and your own Andy Reid would be coaches I'd put ahead of him and that's off the top of my head without looking at wins, winning percentage, etc. Coughlin is a good coach obviously, or he wouldn't have been a coach this long in the NFL, but he not the best coach since 1995. Not even close.

I don't think Eli is average, but I still don't think he's elite. He did carry the team in the playoffs during their first SB, but he had very bad to mediocre SB performances IMO and the defense held the 16-0 and 14-2 Patriots to 15.5 ppg in both games. 17-14 and 21-17. If the scores were 35-14 and 31-17 and Eli had 3 or more TDs and 300+ yards in either game, then yes, I would concede he won those games. It took 2 late drives (and I'm not minimizing that because it's good for them that he was able to do that for them) when he all but was a non factor for most of both games.

[ncr2h]

Shanahan taught Kubiak what he knows about being a head coach. He's simply not a better head coach than Shanahan.

Mike is to offensive Xs and Os what Belichik is to defense. There really isn't a better tactical offensive mind than his in the game. Others like Sean Payton might come close, but at this point, Shanny is the elder statesman of the game. And he's the whole package as administrator and manager.

When Mike was just an OC working for Seifert, you could see his true Xs and Os and pure coaching ability in that ridiculous 49ers offense.

Shanahan has failed to field a top 10 offense in 5 out of 6 Kubiak-less seasons as a coordinator or a head coach. He managed 1 winning season without Kubiak, and that was the very season after Kubiak left, in which Shanahan went 7-4 with Kubiak's QB and then finished the season 2-3 with his own QB. To his credit, he fielded the #2 offense in the league in 2008, a year in which he had the #31, #27, and #25 defenses in his division.

Kubiak has had a top 5 offense in 3 out of his 6 Shanahan-less seasons. In 2005, the year before Kubiak arrived, the Texans had the 30th ranked offense. Stuck with known bust David Carr in 2006, Kubiak improved that to 28th. In 2007, Kubiak brought in Matt Schaub and improved the Texans' offense to 14th. The next 3 seasons, the Texans' offense was ranked 3rd, 4th, and 3rd, respectively. In 2011, despite losing Schaub halfway through the season and starting 5th round rookie TJ Yates for 5 games, the offense finished ranked 13th (the Redskins offense finished 16th).

[Hitman21ST]

Shanahan has failed to field a top 10 offense in 5 out of 6 Kubiak-less seasons as a coordinator or a head coach.

Wrong.

As Broncos OC: 1985 (10th), 1987 (2nd)

As 49ers OC: 1992 (1st), 1993 (1st)

As Broncos Head Coach: 2008 (2nd)

That's five seasons our of ten that he's had a top 10 offense without Kubiak, and four out of ten that he's had a top 2 offense.

Then there's 1990, with Shanahan as the Broncos QB Coach that they ranked 8th in total offense and 1994, with Shanahan as the 49ers OC and Kubiak as QB Coach, when they ranked 2nd in total offense.