Califan007 The Constipated Posted May 26, 2012 Author Share Posted May 26, 2012 Just a heads up...the mods already locked the thread that dealt with that TMZ article because they didn't want a dark, grainy pic and 3rd hand gossip to push the needle on the Stupidometer into the red lol...so it'd be wise to just not comment on it at all unless something more comes to light. Let's give Davis the benefit of the doubt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lavarleap56 Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 How do you know we could get the same production elsewhere as a reportedly healthy Cooley? I think that's a mighty big assumption on your part, and you shouldn't be treating it as fact. We certainly can't get the same production from Paulsen, and assuming Paul can come close is a big gamble. The health concern and the money concern are the two knocks on Cooley. If Shanny lets him go or trades him b/c of that, I'll understand. But if Shanny keeps him around, it will be due to Cooley's health being better, his knowledge and experience, and his talent, which some in here are selling way short simply due to past injuries (which is a recurring theme among most NFL fans, to discount injured players until they prove otherwise). Cooley can be one of our most productive receivers, and so long as he's healthy I'd take him at TE over Paulsen and Paul, even w/ the current contract. You and the other insiders have said before though that some players were looking at restructures. Is that not also a possibility for Cooley? But basically, Cooley right now is still the 2nd best TE we have, and giving RG3 all the good weapons we can is imperative. If we can run more 2 TE sets, that will be a big help both in protection and in the passing game. The formation could also help in rollouts and bootlegs for RG3 and allow him to take off. It could cause nightmares for teams in the redzone. Cooley would be a big part of that. If Cooley restructured, then I don't see any more arguments for not keeping him. In the end I trust Shanny with whatever decision he makes. If Cooley sticks then he clearly earned it, and whatever the decision on him is, I hope fans can respect it either way, though I know on here that won't happen. Inside the numbers show Cooley has been been giving us production that a average TE could. Cooleys "talent" use to be he was a shore handed wr who found soft spots in zone and broke alot of tackles for yac. 04-08 odviously were his most effective years and since then hes been on a steady decline and I posted a nice link people can look at for themselves. I get everyone loves Chris BUT when even he doubts himself and is not sure how effective he can be then thats a red flag. ---------- Post added May-26th-2012 at 04:05 PM ---------- no have you read this thread at all? Cali and Elk are making great points. There opinions should be valued the same, They aren't talking out of their ass. They are backing their claims up Everything I have said is backed up and a non emotional response. Fans have a connection with Chris and as TK said on the show "chris is this generstions Riggo" except no super bowls and less personal accomplishments. ---------- Post added May-26th-2012 at 04:17 PM ---------- I've seen both sides of the argument backing their opinions up. It's pretty obvious neither side is going to change the other sides' mind. That's why this thread has died down until you start throwing around insults like you just did.Oh well. We'll see how it plays out. Going to play out how ive said.. Cooley is tied to 1.)Paul 2.) his health and how much speed he still has 3.) contract.. Some things could change with injuries like last year with sellars of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 I'm not sure why this debate has to be framed as the Cooley ballwashers -vs- the level headed non-emotional types. It's possible to have no particular attachment to Chris Cooley and still think he might have something to add to this Team. I personally have never been too impressed with him as a person- at least what little I've seen. Hell, I said he should have been traded 3 years ago. http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?303964-My-2-year-plan-to-save-the-franchise.-Sorry-Chris-Cooley-( However, he has no trade value right now. His cap number is tough but we already have assembled our Team going into the season. Why would we cut him right now? At a minimum he should be given a complete Training Camp- if he can still contribute, he should be on the roster. I'm not quite sure why I need to be labeled a ballwasher to have that opinion. (or most everyone else) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uno Mas Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 Im guessing the sarcasm in landrys post didn't come across too you. Remember its about team first not idividual players. Landrys post (the one i quoted) is dead on, too bad its out of sarcasm. I stand by my comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan2k Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 Tony G is performing at a old age, why can't Cooley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRAVEONAWARPATH Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 Tony G is performing at a old age, why can't Cooley I don't think Cooley will make it to Tony's age and more importantly, Cooley was never as good as Tony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinfan2k Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 I don't think Cooley will make it to Tony's age and more importantly, Cooley was never as good as Tony. who says he can't make it to Tony's age? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRAVEONAWARPATH Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 who says he can't make it to Tony's age? Is it possible? Sure. But you shouldn't compare him to Gonzalez. I just can't see Chris being as effective at 36 as Gonzalez is. Heck, we don't even know how effective Chris is right now much less 7 years into the future. Let's just focus on Chris making it through THIS year. :2cents: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lavarleap56 Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 Tony G is performing at a old age, why can't Cooley Lets not compare a good Te to a great one. ---------- Post added May-27th-2012 at 12:44 PM ---------- Landrys post (the one i quoted) is dead on, too bad its out of sarcasm. I stand by my comment. At the end of the day you may not like what I post about Cooley but its correct. As a fan I understand why people feel the way they do about chris but reality is he won't be a redskin much longer but he had a good run. My opiniin is pretty well informed on how this cooley deal will play out going forward if every goes as expected. I would start looking at bew signatures if i was you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuji869 Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 I hope to see him smoking on the field this year.:paranoid: Remember we had a kicker a few years back Nigel Gruff who use to smoke on the sidelines during games. Oh wait that was a movie based on a true story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinny21 Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 Just out of curiosity, do you feel Cooley's chances are any better if he really shines and/or Paul struggles? My guess on Cooley is that his sticking around is/was based on his health and whether we got any cap space back. I'm assuming the cap ruling means he has very little chance to stay. Now, I wonder if the team keeps him around to let other teams see how healthy he is, as well as taking time to feel out the position before taking action. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't restructure him, but any chance they cut him and bring him back at a lower salary? Or are they able/willing to discuss a pay-cut w/o releasing him? I'd love to see him back. Given his tenure/talent/loyalty, I think he deserves a chance to play here longer, but I do understand the business side to the situation. If we lose him I'll be depressed, but I won't blame anyone. Pulling for ya' Cooley! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedlamVR Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 Going to play out how ive said.. Cooley is tied to 1.)Paul 2.) his health and how much speed he still has 3.) contract.. Some things could change with injuries like last year with sellars of course. I can see you are right on point 2 . Point 3 to a lesser degree you could be right . Teams do not make a habit of doing players wrong, and cutting Cooley ( a former team captain and fan favorite) now because of his contract is really wrong . You want to make bean counter moves you do it in March, you don't wait until mini camp after free agency, after the draft when teams have their rosters 90% set to cut a guy who has been 100% a team guy no problems at all for him to go and find work . It sends a sour tasting message about the mentality of the FO . I also dispute Point 1 . Niles Paul . This is a kid who at the university of Nebraska since 2007-2010 had 5 TDs, a guy who in his 2 starts (13 games) had 2 catches for 25 yards - He is a blocking WR with good speed but not shown he can do anything else in the NFL . He may be hungry and talented but is he going to step in and let you do what you need to do to get this offense working when needed ? Really dispassionately and logically can you you see Paul excel at TE, a position he has never played before at 6-1 and 220lbs ? I also think you are missing a massive elephant in the room . The team has apparently not extended the long term contract stick to Davis because he is a pot head who had been caught at least twice and from what I understand more times than that high - then he goes on and on about wanting to make the most of his second chance (even though this is not his second chance - that was a long long time ago) then he gets pictured (though i do really doubt the origins of the photo) doing things - going to these kinds of parties that got him in trouble in the first place . Makes you think it is not going to be an if but when he screws up again . You also have to factor 2011 was a contract year for Davis and thats the year he shows up ? Not wanting to labor the point but have we not seen that play out before .... I am not doubting the credentials of the insiders, but listening to latest insider podcast LL is you have to think the arguments against keeping Cooley as a back up - are far from dispassionate and logical . It sounds like he pissed on your kittens - "I am sick of this guy" "when was he ever good" "and i wish he was 4000 miles away" are just some of the choice exerts ... you also have red ridding hood comparing 40 times as a yardstick for judging who is the best NFL TE prospect (because that is one hell of a measuring stick) laughing at his 4.87 speed - when he weighed in at 267lbs 30-40 lbs lighter than he is now . Personally I take past production to mean something . A guy who has 9 seasons in the NFL and of those seasons in 6 has put up more than 55 receptions and 730 yards from the TE position for a team that has sucked on offense for more than a decade . You can show me all the statistics, data mining and extrapolations from football outsiders you want to tell me a guy off the street could have had the same or better production than Cooley in the powerhouse offense the Redskins have run since 2004 ( though none of the other TEs have yet surpassed Cooleys actual production over their respective careers- which has to say something about them as well) and while i do appreciate the information supplied by the FO website and it is fun to look at it is not real it is the product of a computer model and the last time I checked the NFL was not being played out by what is essentially Madden on super sim mode ... I say Cooleys future on this team relies on one thing (not 3) . 1) Cooley . If he can prove he is healthy and his knee can hold up to the real rigors of training camp and OTAs then I am afraid much to your (and most of your indider buddies) despair i think he will still be on the team ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SWFLSkins Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Remember we had a kicker a few years back Nigel Gruff who use to smoke on the sidelines during games.http://schmoesknow.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/3-jon_favreau3.jpg Oh wait that was a movie based on a true story. Yeah I remember the days when Nigel put out his smoke and jogged out on the field in a frigid RFK, tucked a pack of smokes into his socks and banged one threw for a win, man I miss those days. lol. ---------- Post added May-27th-2012 at 10:49 PM ---------- BINGO!I think that sentiment is lost with MANY people in this fanbase. My POV is this: If Cooley sticks around, then obviously the coaches feel like he can contribute. I'd be fine with that. If Cooley is let go, I'll TRUST the coaches judgement in that they believe that production can be found elsewhere. I'd be fine with that as well. I don't have any sort of emotional attachment to him at all. I think he's been a good redskin over the years, but I want what's best for the franchise going forward. I think if this current coaching staff was around instead of Vinny, we would have moved him when he still had some value. You'd be surprised how many on here would NOT be fine with that. I would be fine with it either way, I just think in the recent past the fanbase has gotten a little caught up in sentiment over actual potential and production. If Cooley is indeed sharp and his wheels are back I don't think anyone should doubt what he could mean for a young QB. However if he is not fully back I think it would be stupid to not consider all options for the positions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lavarleap56 Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 I can see you are right on point 2 . Point 3 to a lesser degree you could be right . Teams do not make a habit of doing players wrong, and cutting Cooley ( a former team captain and fan favorite) now because of his contract is really wrong . You want to make bean counter moves you do it in March, you don't wait until mini camp after free agency, after the draft when teams have their rosters 90% set to cut a guy who has been 100% a team guy no problems at all for him to go and find work . It sends a sour tasting message about the mentality of the FO . How would the Front Office be doing Cooley wrong? Cooley is under contract and wants to remain a Washington Redskin and Mike Shanahan has told Cooley he would get a fair opportunity to stay with the team. What more do you want the team to do for Chris guarantee him a spot on the roster regardless of how he performs? Football is also a business and IF Paul impresses and shows why the staff thinks he can handle the switch then hes a younger, cheaper,healthier,faster TE option going forward.The team waiting to see what it has in Paul and Cooley at this stage in his career is the right move for the organization and they need time to make the best decision possible. I also dispute Point 1 . Niles Paul . This is a kid who at the university of Nebraska since 2007-2010 had 5 TDs, a guy who in his 2 starts (13 games) had 2 catches for 25 yards - He is a blocking WR with good speed but not shown he can do anything else in the NFL . He may be hungry and talented but is he going to step in and let you do what you need to do to get this offense working when needed ? Really dispassionately and logically can you you see Paul excel at TE, a position he has never played before at 6-1 and 220lbs ? Nobody knows what you have in Paul in the TE position at this moment but it is not a hard position to switch into. The position is in the process of changing from the Warren and Doc Walker days to basically over-sized WRS playing the TE position. Paul is 6-1 but actually 238 and his natural frame usually keeps him around that 235 area and he had to often struggle to get down and stay around 220. Hard to judge a Wide Receivers abilities in Nebraskas run dominated offense. I think its possible to pick up the reach blocks and leaking in the flats pretty easily and even excel at it. Certain times last year Paul might have been one of our most physical blockers. You killl him for hos he played against corners but he did get open on occasion but moving him inside against LBS and Safeties could change the game for him since hes still a 4.5 guy as well. I also think you are missing a massive elephant in the room . The team has apparently not extended the long term contract stick to Davis because he is a pot head who had been caught at least twice and from what I understand more times than that high - then he goes on and on about wanting to make the most of his second chance (even though this is not his second chance - that was a long long time ago) then he gets pictured (though i do really doubt the origins of the photo) doing things - going to these kinds of parties that got him in trouble in the first place . Makes you think it is not going to be an if but when he screws up again . You also have to factor 2011 was a contract year for Davis and thats the year he shows up ? Not wanting to labor the point but have we not seen that play out before .... So hes a pot head because he was busted smoking pot? so how about the other 20 guys on the team that smoke pot or are we just singling one out? Honestly Ive seen so many guys smoke weed that play NFL football it does not faze me one bit and maybe I am just desensitized to it . Davis was a idiot for getting caught at a time when most players were leaning of the recreational drug use just in case the lockout was lifted so they would not pop positive. End of the day these players are normal everyday people who pay bills, work, have families, and party like everyone else. The issue is people should be able to make the right choices wherever they are and with whatever is around them so making Davis stay inside his home is not gonna solve the issue. The kid messes up within this year then hes a fool and we move on.Front office is doing the same with Davis that it is with Cooley and Paul by using the time they have to make the best decision possible in regards to a new contract for Fred BUT make no mistake Bruce and Mike want him back but its restes on Fred re-earning the trust of the staff and his team. I am not doubting the credentials of the insiders, but listening to latest insider podcast LL is you have to think the arguments against keeping Cooley as a back up - are far from dispassionate and logical . It sounds like he pissed on your kittens - "I am sick of this guy" "when was he ever good" "and i wish he was 4000 miles away" are just some of the choice exerts ... you also have red ridding hood comparing 40 times as a yardstick for judging who is the best NFL TE prospect (because that is one hell of a measuring stick) laughing at his 4.87 speed - when he weighed in at 267lbs 30-40 lbs lighter than he is now . all the comments you attributed to me above did not even come out of my mouth and I said no such things. I think you are speaking about dre honestly. As far as sid she is a grown woman and says what she wants and I do not tell her what to say at all and never will. Cooleys speed is relative though when you look at how they are adding speed into the position, Cooley ran a 4.87 at his pro-day at 255 which in all actuality really doesn't mean much BUT Cooley is concerned with his speed right now, and the question is valid about how much speed do you lose after numerous leg injuries/surgeries? I think that was the point of that topic. I have said many times Cooley was Good in these forums,on our site, on the podcast ect. sorry you were mistaken. Personally I take past production to mean something . A guy who has 9 seasons in the NFL and of those seasons in 6 has put up more than 55 receptions and 730 yards from the TE position for a team that has sucked on offense for more than a decade . You can show me all the statistics, data mining and extrapolations from football outsiders you want to tell me a guy off the street could have had the same or better production than Cooley in the powerhouse offense the Redskins have run since 2004 ( though none of the other TEs have yet surpassed Cooleys actual production over their respective careers- which has to say something about them as well) and while i do appreciate the information supplied by the FO website and it is fun to look at it is not real it is the product of a computer model and the last time I checked the NFL was not being played out by what is essentially Madden on super sim mode ... not about Madden mode and Football Outsiders is actually making its way into Front Offices but thats nothing. Nobody really surpassed Cooley up until 2011 because he saw the majority of reps at that position and had a nice hefty contract. Reality is Davis was showing since 2009 he was capable of out playing Cooley in the pass game whenever he got the time to play. I say Cooleys future on this team relies on one thing (not 3) . 1) Cooley . If he can prove he is healthy and his knee can hold up to the real rigors of training camp and OTAs then I am afraid much to your (and most of your indider buddies) despair i think he will still be on the team ... Its 3 or more and honestly if the team was really sold on Chris we would not have had heavy interest in John Carlson while already having Davis and a staff very high on Paul in the TE position. The numbers just don't work. The real white elephant in the room is Cooley's contract and the fact the team has not mentioned one word to him about a possible restructure at this point which means they will either pay it OR have no intention of doing so... thats why it all comes back too the three items listed and why Paul is a factor in Cooley being here just as much as Cooley is a factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCClybun Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Why can't it be both? Seriously, every issue around here is black and white. It's probably both. We were interested in upgrading the tight end situation back at the draft, right? We bought in a couple guys, when free agency opened, we were in on the John Carlson deal and probably would've had him had it not for the cap hit. I think Mike likes Cooley to some extent, but...come on, guys. 2010 was a good season for him because Donovan was pretty much only looking for him or Moss (and honestly we had nothing else), but he also had some dumb drops. He dropped easy passes, he dropped a touchdown wide open in the end zone. He wasn't the explosive guy we saw before. I think he can still get YAC and be productive...but we were looking to upgrade the position. Not to mention on top of the drops, Cooley still says some dumb ****. Like laughing at Romo sits to pee choking versus Dallas a week after the beat us on Monday night. He kind of has a big mouth, and having a big mouth is all well and good when you make plays on Sunday. But Cooley isn't the same kind of playmaker as he was before. None of that means Cooley has one foot out the door. It just means that Cooley's standing with Mike Shanahan might not be as rosey as everyone thinks. I think Cooley will have every opportunity to come in and show out and bust his ass, and if he does, even if Niles Paul flashes, I think they'll find a spot for him. If you count Mike Sellers who played that tight end/h-back role, we had four tight ends on the roster; I can see a scenario where Davis, Cooley, Paul and Logan are all on the roster. He's still our best blocking tight end. He can still be that consistent outlet for RG3; maybe not explosive, down the field like Davis is, but working underneath and making things creative on offense, sure. Anyone with visions of two tight end sets like New England has can stop that madness now, because New England's two-TE sets work because you can line both Hernandez and Gronkowski up anywhere and create match-up issues, and you need two tight ends who can both block so the defense never really figures out what you're doing. Cooley, at this point, is going to do his best work at an in-line tight end. You can maybe split him out in bunch sets, but he's not going to get open like Fred does. And Fred, great as he can be, can't block. I mean, he's okay at it. He's decent. But if you leave Fred into block you just take your best offensive weapon out of the play. If we have Cooley and Davis, you can have Davis be the explosive, down the field threat at tight end, and Cooley can be the dirty, underneath yards guy. And then Kyle can have fun and line up Niles Paul wherever the hell he wants. There's options for Cooley being here. But Cooley's got to do everything right if he wants to be here. He has to show more than a glimpse of the 2008 Chris Cooley; he's got to be back at that level. He can't have the drops, he can't open his mouth to the media. He just has to go out and do work, and prove he has value. At this point, we have no reason to cut or trade Cooley. We might as well keep him around and see if he can be that guy again, and if we get closer to the season we can restructure him. There's no time table on when we have to do it, so why rush? We're keeping him to see if he can be that guy again. He's not a lock to make the roster, nor does he have one foot out the door. It's more like he's standing just inside the house, nervously playing with his keys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted May 29, 2012 Author Share Posted May 29, 2012 None of that means Cooley has one foot out the door. It just means that Cooley's standing with Mike Shanahan might not be as rosey as everyone thinks. I've yet to see anyone paint a rosy picture of Shanahan's views toward Cooley lol...I think almost everyone has painted a very realistic portrait of where Cooley stands in Shanahan's eyes: that he has to prove he's healthy and that he's worth figuring out a way to keep him on the roster. Where people tend to divide over the matter is whether or not Cooley can do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redskins Ruckus Posted May 29, 2012 Share Posted May 29, 2012 This will be Cooley's last season with the Skins if he makes the roster I'm thinking the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedlamVR Posted May 29, 2012 Share Posted May 29, 2012 I can see you are right on point 2 . How would the Front Office....<snip> . Well I have got to say seldom do people change their minds on something asa result of a discussion on here, but to be honest LL you really have made me think about this in a different way and I really see the massive uphill battle Cooley has to stay a Redskin, and I get your point that it might be overall better for the team if he did not come back and we need to look for the future...and in fact we should have been looking to get something for him 3 years ago as you suggested.... . I really hope this can be the season we see the changing of the guard and i really look forward to seeing Paul flourish .... i doff my hat.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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