CNN - North Korea agrees to halt nuclear activities for food

[Kilmer17]

Some people arent calling for anything like that.

Some of us are saying it's a fools errand to borrow more money from China to give to NK in exchange for them not doing something. Which we all know will end with them not holding up their end of the deal.

Let China give them money.

[Bang]

Some people arent calling for anything like that.

Some of us are saying it's a fools errand to borrow more money from China to give to NK in exchange for them not doing something. Which we all know will end with them not holding up their end of the deal.

Let China give them money.

I know. I was pretty much poking just one like that.

And I get where you're coming from, and if it was still Kim Jong Il in there i['d feel the same way.

I think it's worth a shot to see if sonny is going to follow in the same footsteps.

~Bang

[Kilmer17]

How about we tell him- Cease and desist all activities immediately. And a year from now, we'll inspect. And at that point, we'll feed all of you.

The problme we've had (over numerous administrations) is we give them something in exchange for a promise. Which they never keep. Lets make them give us something first from now on.

[The 12th Commandment]

Bump

That really depends on so many things we have no idea of. Even the leaders must know that they'd make more money on their black market ventures if the customers had more money. I don't see altruism being the root cause but maybe the kid (using his uncle and aunt) can eventually do something. No point in not giving it a shot. There is a possibility that things have or may be changing, all I'm saying is lets encourage and see.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/11/world/asia/north-korea-rocket-launch/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

Pyongyang, North Korea (CNN) -- North Korea has started fueling a long-range rocket it plans to launch in the coming days, a senior national space official said Wednesday.

Fueling of the rocket, which North Korea says will put a satellite in orbit, is under way and will be completed at the "appropriate time," said Paek Chang Ho, head of the North Korean General Satellite Control and Command Center.

He declined to be more specific.

The announcement last month of the satellite launch -- which countries like the United States and South Korea see as a cover for a ballistic missile test -- ratcheted up tensions in the region and prompted Washington to suspend a recent deal to supply food aid to the North.

- continued at link

It would appear that it's just the same old games after all. I still think we have to be hopeful for the future but it doesn't appear much has changed. That said, I'm not scared enough of them to justify any military action. Maybe there really is a weather satellite on it :whoknows:

[TheGreatBuzz]

Part of the problem with some people are their thinking that bombing will solve everything. When Saddam invaded Kuwait, we went in and drove their, what was it called, "Elite Guard" back in less than 5 days. Then we went in and cleaned house 12 years later. Everyone wants us to go into all these countries and clean house, and that is just not feasable or realistic at this point. Do I wish we could go into the ME, Africa and parts of South America and clean house? I'd love it. But it's not realistic and guys like Gator Bait need to realize it. I'm not trying to call him out, but it seems alot of American's think we can just waltz in and set these "dang tooten" countries straight.

I have to say that I think we could do a lot better fighting wars if the media wasn't allowed to be around. War is ugly and not really for civillians to see. Because then it gets political instead of being about our mission. Give us a task, get the cameras out, and let us do it. I doubt we would still be fighting two wars ten years later if we were allowed to just go in and do it.

[Larry]

I have to confess that, seems like every time this happens (We have news stories that NK is going to be testing some new, longer-range, weapon. Typically by firing it at Japan or some such. Often it seems that we have weeks of warning about the upcoming test.), that the fantasy I get is that some day, several days from now, NK launches their new super-duper-weapon . . .

And nine missiles come from Japan, and shoot the thing down, while it's still over NK.

"Oops. Sorry. Unannounced test of our new missile defense system."

----------

I understand that such a scenario would be dumb. Might cause the little ****s to become even more insane. And even if we had such a missile defense system, we wouldn't want to give people like China a look at it, in action. Wouldn't want to show our tech. And, of course, the potential PR problems if we try to shoot the thing down, and fail.

Still. It ticks me. We have weeks worth of notice that these bass-akwards things are coming up. And we have to sit around and let them happen?

[The 12th Commandment]

I have to say that I think we could do a lot better fighting wars if the media wasn't allowed to be around. War is ugly and not really for civillians to see. Because then it gets political instead of being about our mission. Give us a task, get the cameras out, and let us do it. I doubt we would still be fighting two wars ten years later if we were allowed to just go in and do it.

I don't mean to be disrespectful and I appreciate what your doing - thank you. But, yes, if we could do things like the Romans and just brutally kill them all until they stop fighting back (or the modern equivalent), the results would be different for sure. That's never going to happen again though, so considering it is really an exercise in futility. Wars have to be fought with the current limitations that include a world where news spreads in a day to the folks back home. My guess is that if Roman citizens would have known of the horrible things that went on in the frontiers they would not have liked it. Then again they enjoyed watching lions eat Christians so...

Larry, I got see a patriot missile launch and interception at White Sands Missile Range some years ago. It was successful and not a secret then and I'm sure the tech today is a WHOLE lot better. I don't think the chances are good, that if they set their mind to it, they would miss.

[Kilmer17]

What a shocking turn of events.

[The 12th Commandment]

What a shocking turn of events.

You should thank me for laying that one out for you. You're the reason I figured I better post this before I get called out for being too naive.

[TheGreatBuzz]

I don't mean to be disrespectful and I appreciate what your doing - thank you. But, yes, if we could do things like the Romans and just brutally kill them all until they stop fighting back (or the modern equivalent), the results would be different for sure. That's never going to happen again though, so considering it is really an exercise in futility. Wars have to be fought with the current limitations that include a world where news spreads in a day to the folks back home. My guess is that if Roman citizens would have known of the horrible things that went on in the frontiers they would not have liked it. Then again they enjoyed watching lions eat Christians so...

Larry, I got see a patriot missile launch and interception at White Sands Missile Range some years ago. It was successful and not a secret then and I'm sure the tech today is a WHOLE lot better. I don't think the chances are good, that if they set their mind to it, they would miss.

I think you don't give the military enough credit by implying that we would go in and just massacre everyone. But the sad truth of war is that civilians get killed. And trying to stop that costs American lives. War is a dirty business. The fact that America has not won a war since cameras became common place on the battle field should be noted. Wars are won by beating the enemy into submission. It's what we do. Let us do it.

[Kilmer17]

You should thank me for laying that one out for you. You're the reason I figured I better post this before I get called out for being too naive.

I think you're right in that we have no reason to fear them.

But we certainly shouldnt be helping them with anything going forward.

[The 12th Commandment]

I think you don't give the military enough credit by implying that we would go in and just massacre everyone. But the sad truth of war is that civilians get killed. And trying to stop that costs American lives. War is a dirty business. The fact that America has not won a war since cameras became common place on the battle field should be noted. Wars are won by beating the enemy into submission. It's what we do. Let us do it.

I was trying to, by saying modern equivalent, but having never been in the military myself I'll defer there to you. The military must ultimately defer to the population though, ass backwards as the results of that are. Cameras are so ubiquitous today that they are as big a strategic issue as the weather.

[Henry]

I think you're right in that we have no reason to fear them.

But we certainly shouldnt be helping them with anything going forward.

Agreed. I understand giving the new boss a chance, but apparently he's just like the old boss.

Hope the month of food was worth it ...

[TheGreatBuzz]

I was trying to, by saying modern equivalent, but having never been in the military myself I'll defer there to you. The military must ultimately defer to the population though, ass backwards as the results of that are. Cameras are so ubiquitous today that they are as big a strategic issue as the weather.

I understand that the military must ultimately defer to the public. But that is the issue. They have no idea how things need to be done but in the end, drive the decisions and methods. It is the same as politicians making decisions about situations that they have never experienced. A goal needs to be given and then the method for getting there left to the experts. And the public left out of it. If the public wants to see how things are done, tell them to go see a recruiter.

[Thiebear]

No threat to us.

United Nations on the scene.

Nothing to see here folks, move along please, move along!

[Mad Mike]

Bump

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/11/world/asia/north-korea-rocket-launch/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

- continued at link

It would appear that it's just the same old games after all. I still think we have to be hopeful for the future but it doesn't appear much has changed. That said, I'm not scared enough of them to justify any military action. Maybe there really is a weather satellite on it :whoknows:

or not...

North Korea Is Lying About Its Rocket Launch, Sat-Watchers Show

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/04/noko-lying-launch/

North Korea claims that its impending satellite launch, scheduled for this week, is merely a mission to study the country’s “distribution of forests” and weather patterns. But after analyzing the satellite’s potential flight paths, a network of amateur and professional spaceflight specialists have concluded that Pyongyang’s claim is all but impossible. In order for the North Koreans to get a weather or observation satellite into the proper orbit, these experts say, Pyongyang would have to risk the early stages of its rockets dropping on its neighbors’ and allies’ heads.

NBC space expert on North Korea satellite launch: 'It's not a military missile ... but it's darn close'

http://worldnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/04/09/11101174-nbc-space-expert-on-north-korea-satellite-launch-its-not-a-military-missile-but-its-darn-close

NBC News invited James Oberg, our “Space Consultant,” to accompany us into North Korea to view the Kwanggmyongsong-1 satellite.

With a 22-year career as a space engineer in support of NASA’s spaceflight operations, Oberg has the experience and technical expertise to determine the veracity of North Korea’s claims about this mission.

Q. So did this satellite pass muster?

A: The satellite did not meet the expectations I had. I have to ask myself whether these expectations may have been too narrow, but at the same time it raised questions in my mind as to how real what we were being shown was. We asked whether this was a mock-up; in fact, we kept on asking them again and again because they insisted this was a real satellite.

The problem is the North Koreans didn’t just let us in [to the same room as the satellite], they let us get much too close. I could’ve walked three steps and poked it with my finger. But I didn’t want to put grease and smudges on the outside because it could lead the device to overheat in space or it could change a lot of things about the electro-static environment. So you need to protect the satellite from contamination – from touching, from people breathing on it, sneezing on it. And we were all coming in covered in dust after a long road trip. They didn’t protect the satellite from any of that.

Q. If the launch is successful and the satellite deploys and accomplishes its mission, would that be a step toward North Korea becoming an equal partner in space?

A: It’s a sign they’ve put a lot of money on show-off projects because the actual services they expect to get from this [weather] satellite can be obtained tomorrow with a credit card. There are a number of providers who already supply the information this satellite is supposed to provide like taking orbital pictures, providing weather data, etc. For a country of approximately 24 million in the economic state it’s in now, it basically can’t afford a rocket of this size. They are spending far too much money for a service they can easily obtain elsewhere. So the reasons for the launch must lie elsewhere. They probably want to sell these rockets to other countries. These other countries probably don’t want them for peaceful purposes either.

Iran–North Korea relations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_%E2%80%93_North_Korea_relations

The United States has been greatly concerned by North Korea's arms deals with Iran, which started during the 1980s with North Korea acting as a third party in arms deals between the Communist bloc and Iran, as well as selling domestically produced weapons to Iran, and North Korea continues selling missile and nuclear technology to Iran.

UAE seizes N. Korean arms bound for Iran, diplomats say (2009)

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/08/28/uae.korea.ship.seized/

The United Arab Emirates has seized a ship believed to be carrying North Korean weapons to Iran in what is believed to be first case of disguised cargo confiscated under tightened U.N. sanctions against Pyongyang, diplomats said Friday.

The freighter AML Australia was carrying rocket-propelled grenades, fuses and ammunition in boxes marked as oil-drilling equipment, according to a Security Council diplomat who insisted on anonymity. Authorities in the UAE reported the find to the Security Council earlier this month under sanctions imposed after a North Korean nuclear weapons test in May.

Left unchecked, N. Korea and eventually Iran *will* be able to strike the US.

That doesn't mean I agree with Gator Bait who is clueless of how hard it would be to take out N. Korea's offensive capabilities and seems to care little for the 28,000 + American service men and women who would be in the line of fire of any retaliation.

What it means is that we try everything we can to avoid war with the understanding that one day, it may become unavoidable.

[Larry]

That doesn't mean I agree with Gator Bait who is clueless of how hard it would be to take out N. Korea's offensive capabilities and seems to care little for the 28,000 + American service men and women who would be in the line of fire of any retaliation.

Frankly, the "collateral damage" from any military conflict involving NK are a whole lot more than just a few US military personnel.

Let's not forget the entire civilian populations, and economies, of SK and Japan, for example.

One reason why the little ****s have been allowed to go as far as they have, is because they have hostages.

[Predicto]

Agreed. I understand giving the new boss a chance, but apparently he's just like the old boss.

Hope the month of food was worth it ...

Pretty much.

Well, it was worth a try.

[Mad Mike]

Frankly, the "collateral damage" from any military conflict involving NK are a whole lot more than just a few US military personnel.

Let's not forget the entire civilian populations, and economies, of SK and Japan, for example.

One reason why the little ****s have been allowed to go as far as they have, is because they have hostages.

I'm not arguing that the civilian population does not matter. I was pointing out the specific flaws in gator boy's opinions, in this case the idea that Americans would not be in danger.

[The 12th Commandment]

or not....

Nice find. I appreciated reading that. Maybe one day we will have to deal with them, I wouldn't rule it out for ever. My money says China will do something before it comes to ruining the Asian economic climate. They've got a taste of the money and all it takes is that first hit, as they say.

[pjfootballer]

Nice find. I appreciated reading that. Maybe one day we will have to deal with them, I wouldn't rule it out for ever. My money says China will do something before it comes to ruining the Asian economic climate. They've got a taste of the money and all it takes is that first hit, as they say.

Keep aming their little "peters" at Japan and the Land of the Rising Sun will open a can of whoop ass on them. And I'd support it.

[roanoker]

IMO, with 33,000 Americans killed and over 120,000 total U.S. casualties in the Korean War, we have given enough in blood to Korea. N. Korea asks for more by threats and bullying tactics. Give a bully lunch money and he will go away. Wait a minute, he's back again. Same with N. Korea, ask for money - seize the USS Pueblo in international waters (it is still in N. Korean hands), torture the crew, kill some Americans across the DMZ trimming a tree, sink some S. Korean ships in international waters, lob a few artillery rounds into a S. Korean island, etc, etc. No consequences for bad behavior. I am not advocating war, but we should not be appeasing N. Korea. It's the same old story, just a different day. If they need food then they should get it elsewhere.

[ixcuincle]

http://twitter.com/jaketapper/statuses/190575515306958849

North Korea has launched its rocket, sources tell ABC News

[Larry]

Wonder if it worked.

(They seem to have a lot of failures.)

(Although, in their defense, so did the US, when we were starting out.)

Edit:

I assume that this thing is a liquid fueled rocket? Since the news stories said that they were fueling it?

If so, then I have trouble believing that it's much of a threat to the US.

As I understand it, back before we developed the solid-fueled Minuteman, our ICBMs sat on Delta rockets. The Deltas took over a day to fuel. The fueling was visible to satellites. Once fueled, it had to be launched within like a week, or else the fuel would eat through the missile. If the fuel was removed, then it took over a month to refurbish the missile before it could be fueled again.

The solid-fueled Minuteman was a HUGE leap forward (in the "threaten the other guy" department.) Once it's built, it could sit in the silo for years, needing only occasional maintenance. And the only time it wasn't ready for launch within minutes, was when it was being maintained.

So, from the target's POV, the liquid fueled rockets were like an old muzzle loader. Yeah, it's a gun. But it takes five minutes to load it. And, once you load it, you have to fire it, or the load goes bad.

Whereas the Minuteman was more like a revolver firing cartridges. Load it, put it in a holster or next to the bed, and a year from you, you can grab it, point it, and fire.

[ixcuincle]

CNN claims the rocket fell apart off the launchpad after it was launched.

---------- Post added April-12th-2012 at 07:21 PM ----------

I was watching NBC News and Engel was talking about it, and how there was martial music playing and jets flying over Pyongyang

All that after the missile fell apart during launch...