Homer: Please just say no to Peyton Manning

[themurf]

I certainly hope we don't get him for a number of reasons, all of which have been stated before, and really want to believe the FO won't. I understand why sports writers have to all take a turn at the topic (a very valid choice and murf does it well here), but I also wish posters could stop going on so repetitively about it (foolish wish I know).

It's very wearisome board-wise (and even unfortunate IMO) to see the same things said so may times in so many threads by the same people. It sometimes leaves me seriously wondering about their level of cognitive functioning.

It's one of those now-beat-way-past-death matters with a huge added helping of "way too early" with FA and other oft-noted matters needing to play out before any new and intelligent projections/scenarios/debates can take place. I say this with full understanding of typical fan posting behavior during off-season, but the amount of fatuous and repetitive discussion went well past the "jeeez, really guys??" stage a couple weeks ago, as the poor abused ES staff has noted.

But don't pick this thread to quit or murf will blame me. :pfft:

Thanks Jumbo. The reason I wrote this column is because I truly believe this discussion has much more to do with the Redskins than it does Peyton Manning. If they've actually begun to try and develop young talent and build from within with hopes of sustained success, then there's no way I can see going after Manning. If they're simply playing fantasy football and trying to win the offseason and the rest of the league thinks they are, then this move will only further solidify the burgundy and gold as a laughingstock. By simply saying no, they show reason to believe in the vision of the new regime. If not, then the names change but the mediocrity stays the same. Whether they do make a run for Manning or not will say a ton about Mike Shanahan and whether he really is willing and able to roll up his sleeves and put in the time needed to turn this sinking ship around.

(That's enough hyperbole for today.)

I disagree. I think the Redskins SHOULD try to "cut corners"

Because it's worked so well for the franchise thus far?

[moondog]

The only problem with Plan A is that it probably will happen after Manning has signed somewhere. So say we miss out on Manning and Flynn. Then we go for Giffin, but that doesn't work out. Then what?

That's definitely a worst case scenario and I believe if that were the case then you look to trade back, acquire picks and take a quarterback elsewhere in the draft. I would also give Tennessee a cal and see if a reasonable deal could be had to acquire Hasselbeck as a one year mentor to the guy we drafted. I think he could be had for cheap because they are ready for Locker. But again, this is a worst case scenario in my opinion but is still probably more to my liking then bringing in Manning.

[Skinsinparadise]

Am not on the Peyton bandwagon but to play devil's advocate here's how it can play out where it ISN'T business as usual. You don't trade up for RG 3. And instead you trade down like they did in the last draft. But this time when we trade down we start with a loaded draft from the get go plus an extra 4th rounder. (last time we were missing our 3rd and 4th and had to recoup them) so they can really go nuts in the draft this time in an even bigger way. Go get a bunch of Wr and OL like Wright, J. Adams, Rainey, Sanders, Nix, etc.

You surround Peyton with young weapons. and even if Peyton is a bust the roster hopefully is loaded further with young players -- and you get the young QB in the next draft. If they are seriously considering Peyton, it would surprise me if a load up in the draft strategy isn't part of the underpinning behind it -- and if they did it that way, it would be far from business as usual.

Or heck you can even get your young guy in that same draft, trade down get Tannehill, or whomever, Is that my #1 want for the Qb position, nope if Shanny wants RG 3, go get him. but the idea of signing a veteran free agent doesn't seem wacky if its accompanied by the approach I mentioned. And it wouldn't be business as usual. Business as usual would be Vinny already trading our 2nd thru 4th rounders away and plotting how to trade next years picks too. And breaking the bank by giving Peyton an outrageous contract.

[Commander Adama]

Murf as always, excellent points and an excellent article. That being said I disagree, and here is why:

Comparing McNabb to Peyton Manning is so far off base. I have never heard of anyone saying that Donovan McNabb would go into the Hall of Fame, but Peyton Manning has, so in essence you are comparing a pretty good QB with a Hall of Fame caliber quarterback. Also McNabb didn't even want to wear a wrist-band for the plays, while Peyton Manning has always studied harder than any other Quarterback. And since I am talking about Peyton Manning studying plays, what other Quarterback has the knowledge and can read the field better than Peyton Manning? The man is like a Coach on the field. Reading defenses is the same whether he is behind center for the Redskins or for Indianapolis. So he can read defenses, and audible into a running play or passing play depending on the defense he reads.

Regarding Peyton Manning being a stop-gap, I believe you truly need that. Trading up to get Robert Griffin requires that someone would have to be willing to trade with us. We cannot force anyone to trade and even if we do find a trading partner, we may have to compete with other teams that are trying to trade for that pick as well. In terms of ammunition, other teams have more than we do. Don't the browns have 2 First Round draft picks? And we may have to trade a lot more than our second round pick to move up especially if there is a bidding war. Almost like a Ricky Williams type trade, and even then, if the Browns really want Griffin, they will get Griffin since they have more draft picks than we do. But let's say we do indeed get Griffin...what then? Is it guaranteed he will be an elite NFL Quarterback or even a good NFL Quarterback? No. He could turn out to only want a payday and go the way of JeMarcus Russell and not want to put the effort in at all. With Peyton Manning here, you have a contingency of having a Quarterback in Washington other than Rex Grossman and hopefully still able to draft a Quarterback like Griffin if a trade can work out and let him learn from a leader like Peyton Manning.

People say that Peyton Manning wouldn't want to play against his brother twice a year, or that we don't have the team for Manning to really do something good with. First, why wouldn't you want to compete against your brother? A brother that some are saying is better than you? I don't know about others, but I think competing against my brother would give me an added incentive and raise my game to another level. Yes I would want my brother to do great, but I would also think I am good as well and able to compete. As far as not having the weapons...the backfield has two young guys with Helu and Royster and improving the passing game will only help the running game as well. Then you have Santana Moss, Jabar Gaffney, Fred Davis, Chris Cooley, and Leonard Hankerson, which I think are all great weapons. I personally love Santana Moss as a player. Hankerson was really starting to step up before his injury. Gaffney was totally solid at wide receiver for us. And the pair of tight ends with Fred Davis and Chris Cooley is fantastic. Our offensive line was pretty good down the stretch and we could improve it in Free Agency.

If I was Bruce Allen, I would focus on getting Peyton Manning AND work on a trade to move up and also get Robert Griffin, that way if we were not able to get Griffin in the draft, the Redskins would still be better off this season than it was with Beck and Grossman, but if it did work out we would have an immediate improvement at the Quarterback position as well as a long term solution with Robert Griffin. Oh, and I would also target Brandon Weeden in the later rounds if he was still there. I don't know about you, but the thought of passing on Manning, and the possibility of not being able to get Griffin, then drafting someone like Tannehill, scares me. I personally do not think Tannehill will be a very good NFL Quarterback.

So, I think it is imperative we target Peyton Manning in Free Agency.

[MWCREDSKINS]

Agree as much as I respect Peyton where does signing him at this point in his career help this team. We gotta find a young QB who can lead us for 10 years. To me that guy is Robert Griffin III, he's intelligent and right on par with Cam Newton in talent. If you trade 2 Number 1's and a Number 3 I say do it and never look back

[MartinC]

Ever had a neck injury? I have, and as good as my chiropractor has taken care of me the last 17 years the fact that I still need him is a testament to that injury never fully going away. And my injury never needed surgery, now I did not have the care Peyton obviously had, but still, too much risk to repeat history here. It is time to get a new map and travel a different road.

There was a surgeon on NFL Network last year who does 150 of the same surgery Peyton had every year. As per the surgeon in terms of his neck Peyton is no more at risk of reinjury than any other player in the NFL. The question is how fast and how much the nerve damage repairs and with it his arm strength.

Here is the link

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-total-access/09000d5d826d97b3/Manning-s-injury-explained

If he is healthy - if - I don't see a downside to getting him as a free agent as long as we get a rookie high as well, ideally RGIII.

[MartinC]

Double post

[Dick Edds]

I agree, and I personally think Peyton is going to eventually retire before the 2012 season starts.

[herb mul-key]

I'm am not for Peyton Manning as the next 'skins next...just keep building and find the right guy...our guy...

I don't think Kyle Orton is the answer either...

I think it's all a smokescreen anyway and Mike/Bruce/Kyle are liking/targeting a guy we don't know they like...either a pick or Flynn etc...

and maybe Sexy gets in shape and comes in and plays better?

[Mad Mike]

Two things about Manning...

1) He isn't going to play next season. He may start playing a little towards the end of the season if all goes well but that's about the best I think we can expect. I say this as someone who has had a double fusion in his neck. It took me three years to feel "normal" and I only had one surgery and it was successful. My feeling is that anyone who signs Peyton will have to do it on speculation and have a backup plan in place.

2) Peyton is NOT going to want to play here. No way he's going to want to play his own brother in two rivalry games every year. No way he's going to sign up for a situation that one of them has to fail for the other to have a good year. He's going to look for an AFC team first and any other NFC division than the NFC east as a second choice.

And I say this as someone who would love to see a healthy Manning play here even for a few years.

[themurf]

Murf as always, excellent points and an excellent article. That being said I disagree, and here is why:

Comparing McNabb to Peyton Manning is so far off base. I have never heard of anyone saying that Donovan McNabb would go into the Hall of Fame, but Peyton Manning has, so in essence you are comparing a pretty good QB with a Hall of Fame caliber quarterback. Also McNabb didn't even want to wear a wrist-band for the plays, while Peyton Manning has always studied harder than any other Quarterback. And since I am talking about Peyton Manning studying plays, what other Quarterback has the knowledge and can read the field better than Peyton Manning? The man is like a Coach on the field. Reading defenses is the same whether he is behind center for the Redskins or for Indianapolis. So he can read defenses, and audible into a running play or passing play depending on the defense he reads.

Regarding Peyton Manning being a stop-gap, I believe you truly need that. Trading up to get Robert Griffin requires that someone would have to be willing to trade with us. We cannot force anyone to trade and even if we do find a trading partner, we may have to compete with other teams that are trying to trade for that pick as well. In terms of ammunition, other teams have more than we do. Don't the browns have 2 First Round draft picks? And we may have to trade a lot more than our second round pick to move up especially if there is a bidding war. Almost like a Ricky Williams type trade, and even then, if the Browns really want Griffin, they will get Griffin since they have more draft picks than we do. But let's say we do indeed get Griffin...what then? Is it guaranteed he will be an elite NFL Quarterback or even a good NFL Quarterback? No. He could turn out to only want a payday and go the way of JeMarcus Russell and not want to put the effort in at all. With Peyton Manning here, you have a contingency of having a Quarterback in Washington other than Rex Grossman and hopefully still able to draft a Quarterback like Griffin if a trade can work out and let him learn from a leader like Peyton Manning.

People say that Peyton Manning wouldn't want to play against his brother twice a year, or that we don't have the team for Manning to really do something good with. First, why wouldn't you want to compete against your brother? A brother that some are saying is better than you? I don't know about others, but I think competing against my brother would give me an added incentive and raise my game to another level. Yes I would want my brother to do great, but I would also think I am good as well and able to compete. As far as not having the weapons...the backfield has two young guys with Helu and Royster and improving the passing game will only help the running game as well. Then you have Santana Moss, Jabar Gaffney, Fred Davis, Chris Cooley, and Leonard Hankerson, which I think are all great weapons. I personally love Santana Moss as a player. Hankerson was really starting to step up before his injury. Gaffney was totally solid at wide receiver for us. And the pair of tight ends with Fred Davis and Chris Cooley is fantastic. Our offensive line was pretty good down the stretch and we could improve it in Free Agency.

If I was Bruce Allen, I would focus on getting Peyton Manning AND work on a trade to move up and also get Robert Griffin, that way if we were not able to get Griffin in the draft, the Redskins would still be better off this season than it was with Beck and Grossman, but if it did work out we would have an immediate improvement at the Quarterback position as well as a long term solution with Robert Griffin. Oh, and I would also target Brandon Weeden in the later rounds if he was still there. I don't know about you, but the thought of passing on Manning, and the possibility of not being able to get Griffin, then drafting someone like Tannehill, scares me. I personally do not think Tannehill will be a very good NFL Quarterback.

So, I think it is imperative we target Peyton Manning in Free Agency.

Seriously, thanks for being a part of the discussion. It's much appreciated and it shows that people don't have to have the same stance to be able to participate in an intelligent football conversation. I fully agree with you that Peyton Manning's body of work is volumes better than Donovan McNabb's, but I still believe we can learn something from how poorly things went with McNabb.

Donovan played in the system his entire career and was obviously very comfortable playing the game a very specific way. Once he came to town, he was asked by Mike and Kyle Shanahan to change up his game to a certain degree to better fit with their system and as we all know by now, things didn't exactly go as planned. So my concern this time around (ignoring, for a moment, that I'm adamantly against acquiring Manning) would be whether or not the Shanahans would again make an established veteran who is very good at playing his particular style of football bend to their system or did they learn enough from the McNabb experiment to be more willing to find a middle ground?

Manning has been his own offensive coordinator since day one. He's got as much freedom as any quarterback who ever played the game. Is that going to be an issue with this regime? Will Kyle Shanahan look at it as an opportunity to learn from one of the all-time greats or will the honeymoon be over just as quickly as with Donovan and it'll only be a matter of time before whispers of poor conditioning/refusal to wear an arm band/insert whatever other petty grievance here?

If the Redskins did go out and get Manning -- whether they want him to be a stop gap or not -- they would definitely need to do a better job of working with what they've got than they did with McNabb. I don't care how much blame is assigned to the head coach, the offensive coordinator or the over-the-hill quarterback, Redskins fans deserve a better outcome if they were to go down that road once again.

That's my own two cents on what needs to happen if they ignore my pleas to chase the biggest name in free agency once again. Take it for what it's worth.

[TotalRecall]

Peyton Manning isn't Donovan McNabb by any stretch. I think Peyton is a type-A personality that will not accept losing. Your main complaint is that he doesn't have an "unheralded" name for us to get via FA. Peyton even stated that he would be willing to sign with a team that paid him in incentives.

Offensively, I do not think our O-line is as bad as you think. A bookend RT would be ideal. Peyton's quick release would help with that. Other than QB, our main offensive need is at WR. And WRs will likely come via FA or a high draft pick.

If Peyton signs with us, he's not after the big money. He wants to win championships.

Despite getting players mainly through the draft the past 2 off-seasons, the Redskins were still the 5th oldest team in the league this past season. However, I don't think our main flaw was age, but QB talent. Trading away a basket full of draft picks for RG3, as many hope to do, would be akin more to the old mentality of trading away draft picks for a player, whereas Manning would cost us no draft picks.

[KCClybun]

How are people so sure that Manning is so much different than McNabb?

Hindsight's a funny thing, isn't it? Oh, now everyone talks about how lazy and unmotivated and unwilling to work McNabb is...did ANYONE here who thought McNabb would end up being what he was when he got here? Even if you disagreed with the move from a straight up football standpoint, just his evaluation on the field, there was pretty much no one saying McNabb was lazy, unmotivated, unwilling to compromise. For 12 years we had been fed the line about what a pro Donovan was, what a stand-up guy he was, first one in, last one out, works out, keeps himself in shape, leader in the huddle, he had all the best intangibles...

And then he came here, and he wasn't any of that. Either getting traded in division killed his passion, or he was never that guy. Everyone ignored it when T.O or Tim Hasselbeck or some other person said that McNabb just didn't have it, that he had a slow tempo. That stuff got swept under the rug. Every touted his intangibles. Hell, they STILL do, despite bombing and being unwilling to change on two seperate occasions.

No one couldve predicted that McNabb would've been the guy PERSONALITY WISE that he was here, separate from any issues he has on the field. Even if you were against the move to trade for him because of the dirt balls, how many were against it because they thought McNabb would become what he would become?

Likewise, all the "Peyton's nothing like McNabb bull****" screams to me like we're trying to excuse the bad move we made before, but this time it'll be different.

Why? How? Because Peyton's such a great guy? They're all great guys until they're inconvenienced.

[MartinC]

So my concern this time around (ignoring, for a moment, that I'm adamantly against acquiring Manning) would be whether or not the Shanahans would again make an established veteran who is very good at playing his particular style of football bend to their system or did they learn enough from the McNabb experiment to be more willing to find a middle ground?

Lets just focus on this paticular issue for a while - would we need to adjust our scheme to fit Peyton or visa versa. Its a fair question.

As a starting point in looking at this if we examine the scheme we ran last year with Rex under centre that was obviously adjusted to accomodate his lack of mobility - but it was Kyles scheme, which is a variation of what Mike ran in SF and Denver. What, that we ran last year with Rex at QB, do you worry that Peyton could not do or that would not fit the way he has played in Indy?

If its about control of play calling and the freedom that Peyton has at the line with 3 or 4 plays to choose from based on what the defense shows I really dont think there is an OC in the NFL who would have a problem giving Peyton that kind of control. A lot of what makes Peyton great is his ability to read coverage and react to what he is seeing getting you in the right play to attack that. Physically there are lots of QBs in the NFL as good and better than Peyton but there is no close to him mentally IMO - taking advantage of that would be the way to go because without allowing him to do that you make him a worse QB.

[Geneva]

Sign Manning as a free agent, then draft the best QB left on the board with our 6th pick. One to play now and one to play over the next 3 to 10 years.

[KDawg]

Lets just focus on this paticular issue for a while - would we need to adjust our scheme to fit Peyton or visa versa. Its a fair question.

As a starting point in looking at this if we examine the scheme we ran last year with Rex under centre that was obviously adjusted to accomodate his lack of mobility - but it was Kyles scheme, which is a variation of what Mike ran in SF and Denver. What, that we ran last year with Rex at QB, do you worry that Peyton could not do or that would not fit the way he has played in Indy?

If its about control of play calling and the freedom that Peyton has at the line with 3 or 4 plays to choose from based on what the defense shows I really dont think there is an OC in the NFL who would have a problem giving Peyton that kind of control. A lot of what makes Peyton great is his ability to read coverage and react to what he is seeing getting you in the right play to attack that. Physically there are lots of QBs in the NFL as good and better than Peyton but there is no close to him mentally IMO - taking advantage of that would be the way to go because without allowing him to that you make him a worse QB.

I should explain my stance on the matter as well, as I'm not sure its been clear.

I think Manning can run any system just fine. But this system is NOT his strong point, and a statue QB is NOT the best fit for it. A dual threat is the best fit. And we have the chance to get one. If I was Mike or Kyle, I'd be drooling over getting RG3 and just merely "It's a good option" over Manning.

[pjfootballer]

I just wish the draft was before free agency. I liked it that way last year. I'm so on the fence about Peyton. I've been yelling at this team to draft a 10 year guy, but I also know we might not be able to get that guy in the draft.

[MartinC]

I should explain my stance on the matter as well, as I'm not sure its been clear.

I think Manning can run any system just fine. But this system is NOT his strong point, and a statue QB is NOT the best fit for it. A dual threat is the best fit. And we have the chance to get one. If I was Mike or Kyle, I'd be drooling over getting RG3 and just merely "It's a good option" over Manning.

I get the point about the mobility being a plus and I think your right about RGIIi being a great fit. I'm sure we would love to have him - but given our draft pick that's not in our control unless we can trade up and again thats not within our sole control. So no matter how much Mike may love RGIII we might not end up being able to draft him. I do feel we will try though whether we sign Peyton or not - my view is we certainly should try.

As to the scheme fit clearly Manning is not going to run anywhere but he is far from a statue in the pocket, he moves within the pocket really well and has excellent footwork when resetting after moving. In Indy a big part of their running game was the stretch play just like us and I have spent years watching Peyton running play action off that play with great success - he does not roll out and use boot action of that look in the way I'm sure RGIII would but he has made it work in his own way.

Health not scheme fit is the worry I have about Peyton.

[Bubble Screen]

I just wish the draft was before free agency. I liked it that way last year. I'm so on the fence about Peyton. I've been yelling at this team to draft a 10 year guy, but I also know we might not be able to get that guy in the draft.

Yeah, that's where I'm at, too. I know I want either him or RG3.

[KDawg]

I get the point about the mobility being a plus and I think your right about RGIIi being a great fit. I'm sure we would love to have him - but given our draft pick that's not in our control unless we can trade up and again thats not within our sole control. So no matter how much Mike may love RGIII we might not end up being able to draft him. I do feel we will try though whether we sign Peyton or not - my view is we certainly should try.

As to the scheme fit clearly Manning is not going to run anywhere but he is far from a statue in the pocket, he moves within the pocket really well and has excellent footwork when resetting after moving. In Indy a big part of their running game was the stretch play just like us and I have spent years watching Peyton running play action off that play with great success - he does not roll out and use boot action of that look in the way I'm sure RGIII would but he has made it work in his own way.

Health not scheme fit is the worry I have about Peyton.

I have a different definition of statue. He evades pressure well, and has excellent footwork, but he has no chance of getting away from pressure. His pocket awareness is top notch. That was never my contention

[Califan007 The Constipated]

How are people so sure that Manning is so much different than McNabb?

(putting on DA* hat):

1) A healthy Peyton Manning is pretty much different than every QB in the league minus a handful (Brady, Brees, Rodgers).

2) Questions about McNabb's mental capabilities existed before he came here...he didn't even know what the rules were for OT ...Manning, on the otherhand, has been heralded as one of the most intelligent QBs to ever get behind center.

3) McNabb apparently had the offense in Philly taylored to his strengths. Manning apparently ran the offense in Indy.

4) McNabb's team wanted to go in another direction because of his declining production and play...I believe Reid said something like he could have shipped the Eagles playbook off with McNabb and he still wouldn't have worried about McNabb coming back to bite him in the ass. Manning's team is going in another direction due to money issues, not production.

5) McNabb had been benched twice during his last two seasons with the Eagles. Manning has never come anywhere remotely close to being benched while in Indy.

6) The Colts fell apart without Manning. The Eagles won the division without McNabb.

7) I don't remember Manning being any type of threat to the country's worm population.

8) McNabb was basically told which team he'd play for...that affected his mindset. Manning will basically have his pick of any team he wants to play on.

9) A healthy McNabb still saw his skills deteriorating while in Philly, after coming to Washington...and continued to deteriorate after going to the Vikings, who not only benched him but cut him in mid-season. A healthy Manning had no such issues with the Colts.

[TLusby]

I disagree I wouldn't put Peyton Manning and Donovan McNabb in the same category. I would take a Peyton at 80% over anything we have had recently. So you only have 2-3 year window with him, I remember what Shanahan did with John Elway late in his career over the same period of time.

Bingo! WE would be fools not to do a deal with the greatest ever! People with hopes in RGIII over Manning are crazy! Remember Heath!

[MartinC]

I have a different definition of statue. He evades pressure well, and has excellent footwork, but he has no chance of getting away from pressure. His pocket awareness is top notch. That was never my contention

No I understood what you meant in terms of mobility. I think the thing you also have to consider with Peyton is how quickly he gets the ball out of his hand through his quick decision making - he is very very hard to sack. I read (but have not checked) that he is the least sacked QB in the NFL over the last few years and that's not because his line is great.

[KDawg]

No I understood what you meant in terms of mobility. I think the thing you also have to consider with Peyton is how quickly he gets the ball out of his hand through his quick decision making - he is very very hard to sack. I read (but have not checked) that he is the least sacked QB in the NFL over the last few years and that's not because his line is great.[/Quote]

Certainly not possible to argue this point, either. But it's not his getting sacked that has me worried. It's that although he could run this offense, he doesn't bring EVERYTHING to the table. Yes, he'd be a better passer than Griffin from the jump, but he doesn't threaten the D with his feet. That threat can take an offense over the hump. Our running game would probably even be more successful.

Then you have to keep in mind that his health is a concern...

[SWFLSkins]

There was a surgeon on NFL Network last year who does 150 of the same surgery Peyton had every year. As per the surgeon in terms of his neck Peyton is no more at risk of reinjury than any other player in the NFL. The question is how fast and how much the nerve damage repairs and with it his arm strength.

Here is the link

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-network-total-access/09000d5d826d97b3/Manning-s-injury-explained

If he is healthy - if - I don't see a downside to getting him as a free agent as long as we get a rookie high as well, ideally RGIII.

Each and ever person is different, albeit good or bad in terms of recovery. He is a professional athlete and his job is more demanding physically than others, as is mine,,, I am a contractor and do physical labor quite often. I know certain movements above my head aggravate my old injury more than other movements. I just wonder how strong and how affected Peytons throwing motion is going to be? IMO only Peyton is going to know the truth and that scares me because you never know someone's true motivation. HE may be all right, but only he knows. Obviously if the Redskins sign him I hope they have done their homework medically and he does well. I just think based on the last twenty years I would not mind seeing the Skins pass on a question mark this big. If they sign him and draft a QB they want that would suit me just fine. However preference would be to start fresh with a top tier guy.