We May Be Hardwired to Believe in God

[Bang]

My point is, what's the point, if we aren't created to care for one another and the only thing separating us from the dogs is we use a toilet, then why are ethics even important? Why should we even care?

Well, if no one cared, waht kind of world would it be?

I would bank that if you asked a million people if they'd prefer to live peaceably together or if they'd prefer total anarchy, the overwhelming majority would choose the former.

Basically we all just want to get by and live our lives without being ****ed with. So most of us act in an accordance. Let's face it.. the majority of laws against serious crimes aren't really to prevent them, but to punish those who would commit them anyway.

The majority of us don't need to be told not to burgle someone's house or kill their neighbor. We know it's wrong because we can empathize with one another. (most of us, anyway.)

And so in order to accomplish that we act in a way that will help facillitate that for those we come in contact with.

We all have a bad neighbor story, but it's always one neighbor out of twelve or so that's bad. Everyone else in your neighborhood basically gets along, even if they don't know one another.

I don't think very many people who are willing to kill, rape, or rob are only being held at bay by their belief. I think those in our society who are capable of murder are going to kill regardless of their belief when they feel it's time to kill someone. I very much doubt there's many rapists who let victims go by based on their fear of the afterlife.

You're a decent guy at heart, and if there was no promise of heaven or threat of hell, you'd still be a decent guy. As would most people.

~Bang

[Jumbo]

It's called playing the Devil's Advocate, and those countless agnostics/atheists et al are all looking for a reason we care for one another with the exception that we were created to do so. And the fact that they find anything at all is only evidence that they are following the bread crumb trail that leads to the creator.

The fact that you would say this shows that you don't think I'm as smart as you say you do. But that's ok.

That one's on me. And I confess that I am not prone to think of "devil's advocate" as an explanation because I almost never use it and I associate you with being pretty direct and transparent (in the good sense). And I do think you're smart, that one just got by me and it caught me in a reflexive reaction of my making---thinking someone was making a very common (and very lacking) "believer" comment that does reflect what I was criticizing. My bad, amigo. I ask forgiveness.

By the way, as I do for various people and reasons from time to time, I will be attending a (Lutheran) church service tonight and a fundy Baptist one tomorrow, so pray for me.

[Larry]

By the way, as I do for various people and reasons from time to time, I will be attending a (Lutheran) church service tonight and a fundy Baptist one tomorrow, so pray for me.

Perhaps a Redskins win would help?

[Destino]

While "good" is a relative term and everybody has their own definition, I think there's enough of a foundation the majority of the aggregate can agree upon. "The Golden Rule" is always a good starting point.

I don't disagree with any of that however I think that it's still too general to serve any meaningful purpose other than making day to day life more pleasant, in general. It's a good foundation certainly.

[PokerPacker]

Human history would beg to differ. I would argue that human corruption is much more easily proved, one has to look for the empathy actually I'll retract that last part...empathy stands out because it is the exception to the rule of human corruption. Skyscrapers are not built because of empathy, Las Vegas doesn't pay the light bill on empathy.

Las Vegas and huge cities are not the seeds of society, though. Society starts in small tribes and build up. As we grow larger, we lose the interpersonal connections making empathy a smaller part of society. If you don't come into contact with those you are affecting, then it's easier to not empathize.

[Jumbo]

And I'll just add there are very detailed well-thought out (objectively speaking, honest) explanations of how standard and well recognized evolutionary dynamics and time can offer a very understandable and logical, scientifically sound process leading to the current level of social complexity of man and human behaviors in all the manifestations, good and bad, (thoughts/deeds--especially accelerated as language skills and information gathering/sharing improved/continues to improve). This can provide one easy and reasonable (and obviously still incomplete) way to find some "hows" and "whys" most humans have caring and benign emotions and desires (and deep thoughts) just as they have different helpings of the violent and harmful (to self and others) thoughts and behaviors.

As I have long pointed out to various religious folk who were very committed to their faith but troubled by conflict with science stuff they found impossible to denounce and some were thus suffering real cognitive dissonance at times, one can, of course, accept all that other stuff and simply put "God" in front of it, saying that this is just the tooling he's used to shape his instrument.

Then that can lead into different levels of the Old Debate.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Well, if no one cared, waht kind of world would it be?

I would bank that if you asked a million people if they'd prefer to live peaceably together or if they'd prefer total anarchy, the overwhelming majority would choose the former.

Basically we all just want to get by and live our lives without being ****ed with. So most of us act in an accordance. Let's face it.. the majority of laws against serious crimes aren't really to prevent them, but to punish those who would commit them anyway.

The majority of us don't need to be told not to burgle someone's house or kill their neighbor. We know it's wrong because we can empathize with one another. (most of us, anyway.)

And so in order to accomplish that we act in a way that will help facillitate that for those we come in contact with.

We all have a bad neighbor story, but it's always one neighbor out of twelve or so that's bad. Everyone else in your neighborhood basically gets along, even if they don't know one another.

I don't think very many people who are willing to kill, rape, or rob are only being held at bay by their belief. I think those in our society who are capable of murder are going to kill regardless of their belief when they feel it's time to kill someone. I very much doubt there's many rapists who let victims go by based on their fear of the afterlife.

You're a decent guy at heart, and if there was no promise of heaven or threat of hell, you'd still be a decent guy. As would most people.

~Bang

[Devil's Advocate Mode]

That still just sounds like self preservation more than anything else, "we don't want people messing with what we have with so we act a certain way to keep that from happening." As per the Heaven/Hell thing, I'm one who believes that as Christians we are to live as we were created to live as if there is no Heaven/Hell, as it would seem to me that if the only thing creating morality was the threat of Hell or the reward of Heaven, then what has been created is not morality but an illusion of it for the sake of self preservation. I believe that true morality is much different than that.

[AsburySkinsFan]

That one's on me. And I confess that I am not prone to think of "devil's advocate" as an explanation because I almost never use it and I associate you with being pretty direct and transparent (in the good sense). And I do think you're smart, that one just got by me and it caught me in a reflexive reaction of my making---thinking someone was making a very common (and very lacking) "believer" comment that does reflect what I was criticizing. My bad, amigo. I ask forgiveness.

I'm just pushing the boundaries, I know on the interwebs that for every one like me who is intentionally pushing the boundaries to see where things break, there are 18,986,493,856 others who would think that my comments are perfectly reasonable. I grant that, also toss in the fact that I'm feeling fairly cantankerous and ornery lately.

By the way, as I do for various people and reasons from time to time, I will be attending a (Lutheran) church service tonight and a fundy Baptist one tomorrow, so pray for me.

Lutheran then Fundy Baptist....wow don't get whiplash.

[Jumbo]

Perhaps a Redskins win would help?

At least no one in stadium as started a "I want the 'skins to lose for Jesus" thread.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Las Vegas and huge cities are not the seeds of society, though. Society starts in small tribes and build up. As we grow larger, we lose the interpersonal connections making empathy a smaller part of society. If you don't come into contact with those you are affecting, then it's easier to not empathize.

And one could just as easily argue that the small tribes came together for security in numbers for the sake of self preservation. What's more is that the "empathy" created within those tribes is there for the sake of harmony, yet that empathy was most time not shared outside of one's tribe, and when it was it was mutual benefit, which brings us back to where we began. Further, if empathy is the seed of society and then as society grows it blooms into self-interested beasts, is that not like saying that I planted an acorn and what grew out of the ground was a honey badger? If it is the seed then the fruit should bear witness to its origins.

At least no one in stadium as started a "I want the 'skins to lose for Jesus" thread.

Soooo tempting...yet for the sake of self preservation...I shall resist.

[oisn1]

[Devil's Advocate Mode]

That still just sounds like self preservation more than anything else, "we don't want people messing with what we have with so we act a certain way to keep that from happening." As per the Heaven/Hell thing, I'm one who believes that as Christians we are to live as we were created to live as if there is no Heaven/Hell, as it would seem to me that if the only thing creating morality was the threat of Hell or the reward of Heaven, then what has been created is not morality but an illusion of it for the sake of self preservation. I believe that true morality is much different than that.

To a certain extent, it is self preservation, but there is something more intrinsic than that. People who have killed others, whether murder or self defense, often speak of nightmares and seeing the faces of the dead. Some people turn themselves in after murder. More importantly these actions are not only indicative of religious folk, but people of all races, genders, and beliefs. If our morality was only based self-preservation, these things wouldn't happen. And if god was the only source of morality, then only religious people would feel those things. It would seem to me that one can argue that our empathy goes beyond self-preservation (whether god-given or not).

[AsburySkinsFan]

To a certain extent, it is self preservation, but there is something more intrinsic than that. People who have killed others, whether murder or self defense, often speak of nightmares and seeing the faces of the dead. Some people turn themselves in after murder. More importantly these actions are not only indicative of religious folk, but people of all races, genders, and beliefs. If our morality was only based self-preservation, these things wouldn't happen.

That's as much of a religious statement as I've ever heard, you speak from anecdotal evidence and take it on faith, maybe it is the fear of societal shame and punishment that causes these things, and what about the people who have taken lives and have no nightmares, and see no faces, and never turn themselves in?

And if god was the only source of morality, then only religious people would feel those things.

Ahhh what you meant to say is this, "If believing in God was the only source of morality, then only religious people would feel those things." Because as I understand it God has created each of us to know and understand these things, and it is those who have hardened their hearts to God that are the psychopaths.

It would seem to me that one can argue that our empathy goes beyond self-preservation (whether god-given or not).

Sure, you can argue it, but you most certainly can't blame me when you make as many faith filled assertions in your arguments as I will in mine.

[Corcaigh]

... it is those who have hardened their hearts to God that are the psychopaths.

Merry Christmas to everyone.

[Thiebear]

ASF: Preaching love to thy fellow man at all time .

[Destino]

So what is the debate here, that Christian moral system isn't needed for members of a culture built on it? Certainly one could say that the cultural model is preferred to the much more stringent original. Saying that the foundation plays no role however is simply wrong. Compare cultures built stop different foundations to see the impact.

We are all products of culture and culture evolves and changes. Religions have played a massive role in cultural development, though admittedly they are not the only factor.

Bang argues that people don't avoid killing and rape because well those things are just apparently generally avoided. I disagree entirely. Check out areas of the world where government are unable to enforce laws like certain African regions for an example.

[Thiebear]

So what is the debate here, that Christian moral system isn't needed for members of a culture built on it? Certainly one could say that the cultural model is preferred to the much more stringent original. Saying that the foundation plays no role however is simply wrong. Compare cultures built stop different foundations to see the impact.

We are all products of culture and culture evolves and changes. Religions have played a massive role in cultural development, though admittedly they are not the only factor.

Bang argues that people don't avoid killing and rape because well those things are just apparently generally avoided. I disagree entirely. Check out areas of the world where government are unable to enforce laws like certain African regions for an example.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap-crime-rapes

The Gov'ts seem to be the ones basically helping in the trafficing.

[Destino]

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap-crime-rapes

The Gov'ts seem to be the ones basically helping in the trafficing.

I couldn't find a rape statistic on that site for the Congo, the rape capital of the world according to the UN

http://www.voanews.com/english/news/africa/central/Congo-Rape-Inquiry-Suspended-After-Reprisals-125076874.html

Nations can't be trusted to report crimes against women if they have no respect for women or no ability/interest in enforcing their laws. People simply won't report it for fear of reprisal.

[alexey]

It is just that one group just extends that faith a little bit further out.

I would say: structures that faith in a different way.

[PokerPacker]

At least no one in stadium as started a "I want the 'skins to lose for Jesus" thread.

Crash For Christ

---------- Post added December-24th-2011 at 08:23 PM ----------

And one could just as easily argue that the small tribes came together for security in numbers for the sake of self preservation. What's more is that the "empathy" created within those tribes is there for the sake of harmony, yet that empathy was most time not shared outside of one's tribe, and when it was it was mutual benefit, which brings us back to where we began. Further, if empathy is the seed of society and then as society grows it blooms into self-interested beasts, is that not like saying that I planted an acorn and what grew out of the ground was a honey badger? If it is the seed then the fruit should bear witness to its origins.

Security in numbers, however, means nothing if those you number with are just waiting for you to fall asleep so they can put a knife through your heart.

as for the acorn analogy, an acorn bears not a massive acorn, but rather a tree complete with roots, a trunk, branches, bark, leaves, and yes, also acorns. The seed of culture grows into a massive organism complete with multiple... well... organs. The leaves do not resemble the branches that bare them, nor the roots that keep them grounded. And now despite having responded to the analogy, I'm not very big on analogies like this because frankly, there are many things that share a similarity to something while being completely different in other areas so for every analogy implying one thing, you've got another implying something completely different

[Thiebear]

Crash For Christ

---------- Post added December-24th-2011 at 08:23 PM ----------

Security in numbers, however, means nothing if those you number with are just waiting for you to fall asleep so they can put a knife through your heart.

as for the acorn analogy, an acorn bears not a massive acorn, but rather a tree complete with roots, a trunk, branches, bark, leaves, and yes, also acorns. The seed of culture grows into a massive organism complete with multiple... well... organs. The leaves do not resemble the branches that bare them, nor the roots that keep them grounded. And now despite having responded to the analogy, I'm not very big on analogies like this because frankly, there are many things that share a similarity to something while being completely different in other areas so for every analogy implying one thing, you've got another implying something completely different

Okay that is REALLY well written.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Security in numbers, however, means nothing if those you number with are just waiting for you to fall asleep so they can put a knife through your heart.

And yet how many have found themselves on the margins of a given society because they were not seen as being valuable to the society as a whole? Which is why children, women and the elderly are always the first to be hurt is societies.

as for the acorn analogy, an acorn bears not a massive acorn, but rather a tree complete with roots, a trunk, branches, bark, leaves, and yes, also acorns. The seed of culture grows into a massive organism complete with multiple... well... organs. The leaves do not resemble the branches that bare them, nor the roots that keep them grounded. And now despite having responded to the analogy, I'm not very big on analogies like this because frankly, there are many things that share a similarity to something while being completely different in other areas so for every analogy implying one thing, you've got another implying something completely different

Sure analogies have their limits yet if empathy is the core of a society then what you are suggesting is that the core of a society evolves into something that has an entirely different DNA than the core, something that cannot be said about the acorn or organisms. If empathy is the core then where does the empathy go? Why does it disappear? Wouldn't it stand to reason that if empathy were truly the core of society then as a society grows then the empathy should grow with it, yet what we see is just the opposite. Instead what we do see is that societies are most often times dominated by self interested individuals which it should also stand to reason would have also been the core of society.

[Prosperity]

I would say: structures that faith in a different way.

that seems like a better way to say it

[Thiebear]

And yet how many have found themselves on the margins of a given society because they were not seen as being valuable to the society as a whole? Which is why children, women and the elderly are always the first to be hurt is societies.

Sure analogies have their limits yet if empathy is the core of a society then what you are suggesting is that the core of a society evolves into something that has an entirely different DNA than the core, something that cannot be said about the acorn or organisms. If empathy is the core then where does the empathy go? Why does it disappear? Wouldn't it stand to reason that if empathy were truly the core of society then as a society grows then the empathy should grow with it, yet what we see is just the opposite. Instead what we do see is that societies are most often times dominated by self interested individuals which it should also stand to reason would have also been the core of society.

Seems to me the Peoples of the Countries that are "allowed" to give do.

I would also point out that the countries that arn't allowed will come out when times are tough against all odds and walk the streets to help others when their own lives are threatened to do so.

For every evil, I see love overwhelm it eventually.

I'm willin to start grabbing stories throughout the net of just recent events if you want to go back and forth?

It only dissapears temporarily as the Earth is 75% dictatorship, (they are not a fan of hope and fight change against even their own families).

Question:

IF North Korea was to open its border: These are people we do not know and haven't seen in 30+ years.

a. The world would watch and see

b. The world would pour in supplies and people to help those that needed it.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Seems to me the Peoples of the Countries that are "allowed" to give do.

I would also point out that the countries that arn't allowed will come out when times are tough against all odds and walk the streets to help others when their own lives are threatened to do so. (rest of post)

Which does not answer why they do what they do, is it empathy or societal guilt, or the desire for more power and influence.

Of course my argument is that the very fact that we care is not because of some naturally evovled empathy which seems to stand in opposition to evolutionary "survival of the fittest", but instead that humanity being created in the image of God which is about being built to love but that sin has corrupted much if this world which results in the brokenness we see.

[Koolblue13]

I'm living on an island with very little government and one of the most murderous places on the planet, per capita. There are churches everywhere. It's super religious here.

God is everywhere and it makes no difference, because the almighty dollar is scarce, but the drugs aren't.

The dollar rules the hearts of most, drugs are the easiest way to it and god is the excuse to get away with murder.