techboy Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 wow, I guess me not being pro-religion has singled me out to be discriminated against Don't let Corcaigh bother you. He's one of the biggest defenders of religion on this board. Keep fighting the good fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokerPacker Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 I don't wish any ill will towards anyone. I provided some incite from other sources to explain my radical point of view. Freudian Slip? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew_Fl Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 You sir concern me, you have put so much energy to portray me as some kind of villian, how ironic this is the same propaganda people of religion use against... you guessed it people of no religion, next thing you know people are going to say I don't have "faith" because I don't believe in any type of "god" You started this thread and called a huge percentage of humans crazy and in need of therapy. You are not a villain; "troll" suits you better. Then you keep hiding behind, "hey dude i'm just spreading my message in peace why do you guys keep coming at me?" Trolling steps: 1. Present controversial topic 2. Bait people of opposing view with dumb insulting statement 3. Talk about why people are painting you as a villain and claim you are just spreading your message without judging anyone. Seen this a thousand times on the internet. Way to be original. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 You sir concern me, you have put so much energy to portray me as some kind of villian, how ironic this is the same propaganda people of religion use against... you guessed it people of no religion, next thing you know people are going to say I don't have "faith" because I don't believe in any type of "god" Is this some kind of canned overly dramatic response you had in the queue? It doesn't fit what I wrote at all. No where did I describe you as anything close to a villain. The message was this: if you want to proselytize for atheism or humanism or whatever it is you believe in, just be sure you set your expectations correctly. People that disagree tend to not be welcoming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbo Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 I purposely did that to weed out the real trolls. wow, I guess me not being pro-religion has singled me out to be discriminated against (obviously the mods on this board don't care about what I have to say and encourage trolling if it benefits a "choosen" few). It's all good, where I'm from I'm used to it. You sir concern me, you have put so much energy to portray me as some kind of villian, how ironic this is the same propaganda people of religion use against... you guessed it people of no religion, next thing you know people are going to say I don't have "faith" because I don't believe in any type of "god" OK. Troll or just too stupid to post here for awhile, I don't care how you call it. Buh-bye (and checking your user note, we'll make until well into next year. Sorry to those of you smelling easy-kill-fun-time. But between the trolling and spam-replies I can't let ya have him just to play with this time. This is better for your character anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 I know were hard wired to see faces: this is why Jesus on Toast and the Man on Mars etc. etc. etc. People are hard wired to fear the unknown and insert anything to stop the fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corcaigh Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Don't let Corcaigh bother you. He's one of the biggest defenders of religion on this board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corcaigh Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Wow... just wow.... Don't be overwhelmed. Your focus should first be on spelling, and then writing complete sentences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbo Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 People are hard wired to fear the unknown and insert anything to stop the fear. That's what she said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubbs Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 I believe z0e has learned that while he (she?) may not believe in God, he should most certainly believe in Mod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chants Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 I applaud you for your rational response. Thank-you, but hold the applause. Do you see the similarity between you way of thinking and O'Brian's? I don't wish any ill will towards anyone. I provided some incite [sic] from other sources to explain my radical point of view. I's not so radical. Whether it's called the Inquisition, re-education camps, or the Ministry of Truth, the desire to correct obstinate opinion has been around for thousands of years. Your point of view is perhaps more reactionary than it is radical. If someone were to tell you that god is a warlord that causing famine, poverty and chaos; who would want to worship that god? Like Limos or Ares? If some tribe wanted to steal my land, kill me, and enslave my wife and offspring, I'd feel some pressure to wish for war, famine and chaos upon that tribe. There have been infinite references to "god or gods" and we have a "choice" on which one to "worship" I for one don't worship any god... Really? Don't sell yourself short. You just advocated collective re-education for an entire population that believes differently from you. Your god may not have a name, but you certainly believe in something, and quite strongly at that. I believe in the ability of the human race to become supreme one day... things of "sicence [sic] fiction" we posses the power to make them reality.In other words... I'm free spirited and take life for what it is... infinate [sic] potential. Sounds very admirable, and I am not being sarcastic. But it is amazingly similar to what other religions claim to believe in: live a good life, think correctly, and you will be rewarded with infinite potential. Sounds like heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeaconTheVillain Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 I applaud you for your rational response. I don't wish any ill will towards anyone. I provided some incite from other sources to explain my radical point of view. If someone were to tell you that god is a warlord that causing famine, poverty and chaos; who would want to worship that god? There have been infinite references to "god or gods" and we have a "choice" on which one to "worship" I for one don't worship any god... I believe in the ability of the human race to become supreme one day... things of "sicence fiction" we posses the power to make them reality. In other words... I'm free spirited and take life for what it is... infinate potential. I too believe that humans will become essentially superhuman one day. Just look at us now compared to cro magnon (there is evidence they to worshiped "God"). It is mind boggling to imagine where we might go or end up. Personally, I believe religion and god will be almost completely phased out within a couple hundred years. Do I believe in god? No, I don't believe in a judgemental being nor do I believe in any life after death. I do however have a great deal of respect for religious people who "do right" and are always there to help people. It is often asked, does religion do more harm or good? People mention terrorism, crusades, et al, but I still don't think it comes close to the amount of good that religion has done. Think of all the people who have clothes on their back and food on the plate because of dedication of groups with a religious affiliation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsfan07 Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 People will believe what they wanna believe. I couldn't care less if you believe in God, and you shouldn't care that i don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew_Fl Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 I believe z0e has learned that while he (she?) may not believe in God, he should most certainly believe in Mod. Well done sir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbo Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 http://ieet.org/index.php/IEET/more/4221 dude's (OP) on a long vacation. seems a bit pointless to go after him and leave his OP article untouched. i'll add this one i saw earlier (been to the site a few times over the last year) because it can add some decent stuff for conversation if people are interested. the science the author refers to is legit as i scanned it, and there's a lot more in that vein that's out there. views and opinions in the piece are just that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oisn1 Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Consider this... If God existed, and wanted people to believe in him, would we expect to find that people were apparently set up to be biologically inclined to do so? See now this is an interesting thought experiment, as opposed to foolish trolling by z0eboy. From a general theistic perspective, that makes sense. But from a Christian perspective, considering the rising Evangelical culture in the US, I actually be it would be the opposite. In Christianity, I think you would agree that a great deal of emphasis is placed on free will, which would lead me to believe that God wouldn't "taint" free will with a genetics that would nudge people in a certain direction. Genetic predisposition would be cheating as it would negate the true power bestowed onto humans of free will. Oddly enough, if we were talking about Greek gods, I believe they would have made humans inclined not to believe in them, just so they could make people's lives even worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corcaigh Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 And what would it mean given the obvious differences in how people are wired? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oisn1 Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 And what would it mean given the obvious differences in how people are wired? Well that would imply less of a god-given wiring, and more an evolutionary wiring. One would assume that God is not so callous just make some people believers and other not, so it'd have to be all or nothing. Maybe if there is a God that doesn't promise some sort of heaven, it would make sense to have differing views, but any God who promises a heaven would probably not put people on an uneven footing (again, assuming a judeo-christian god). It would seem more likely that the "god" gene would be an evolutionary adaptation that helped our ancestors make sense of a cruel and unfair world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 I'm asssuming after finding the gene for God worship, they'll next go after sorting out which alleles make you a Christian, make you a Hindu, a Buddhist, or if you are recessive homozygous you are an atheist. yes I'm joking Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techboy Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 But from a Christian perspective, considering the rising Evangelical culture in the US, I actually be it would be the opposite. 1. If you think evangelical Christianity depends upon the concept of free will, you've clearly never met a Calvinist. And yes, there are plenty of evangelical Calvinists. 2. There is no validity in any case to the notion that God "hardwiring" humans to seek Him would in any way violate the concept of free will. People would get the urge to seek the divine, but what they chose to do after such a search could still be entirely up to them. 3. And, in fact, if we assume that people are hardwired to seek God, it wouldn't seem that free will has been impacted in any case, since we have people ranging from devout Muslim to virulent atheist. They sought and arrived at different choices. 4. Finally, since you want to make this about U.S.-centric evangelical Christianity, it is in precisely such a situation, where the wrong choice (or no choice at all, perhaps) has such dire consequences, that I would expect a just God who made such rules to provide an impetus for people to seek at the very least enough information to make an informed choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oisn1 Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 1. If you think evangelical Christianity depends upon the concept of free will, you've clearly never met a Calvinist. And yes, there are plenty of evangelical Calvinists.2. There is no validity in any case to the notion that God "hardwiring" humans to seek Him would in any way violate the concept of free will. People would get the urge to seek the divine, but what they chose to do after such a search could still be entirely up to them. 3. And, in fact, if we assume that people are hardwired to seek God, it wouldn't seem that free will has been impacted in any case, since we have people ranging from devout Muslim to virulent atheist. They sought and arrived at different choices. 4. Finally, since you want to make this about U.S.-centric evangelical Christianity, it is in precisely such a situation, where the wrong choice (or no choice at all, perhaps) has such dire consequences, that I would expect a just God who made such rules to provide an impetus for people to seek at the very least enough information to make an informed choice. Well I ignored Calvinism because, while sizable, I haven't seen the type of mainstream support for it, especially in terms of widespread support for predestination type ideals. The only reason I focus on Christianity in the US is because that is the predominant religious influence of our nation, and is probably the lens through which most Americans consider theistic matters. For example, when politicians talk of god, they aren't thinking about the Greek Gods or the Egyptian Gods, there is an inherent image of the judeo-christian god. It would be impossible, and foolish, to think about what a non-denominational god would do because that type of god is truly abstract. That type of god would only be bound to creating life and the universe, and everything else would be pure conjecture. Everything else would be assuming that god had human traits, which would be foolish for an abstract god. But yes, an abstract god could have given people that hardwiring, or just as easily not given people that hardwiring. In regards to your last point, it would make sense if the wiring was shared among all people. With the growth of ideas like a god gene that some people apparently may not possess, it would not make any sense for God to just give some people a natural leg up on salvation. I should state that the "hardwiring" link is hardly indicative of the fact that people are hardwired to believe in god. The study only really confirms the notion that humans seek to find connections between objects in the world. The study only shows that people seek to find purpose-seeking answers to questions. In fact, it could be that religion is just a conjuration of the fact that we looked for an answer to life that had "purpose" when we didn't have the technology or the brain power to think of anything else. This study doesn't really make any assumptions about the validity of religious belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Consider this... if religion in general help people "cope" with things they don't understand, would you consider people that practice religion to be crazy people? I think religious people need therapy... its sad. And I think you're an............never mind I'd rather not get banned today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 I think we're more wired to require an answer, and in the absence of one, will make one up that covers it all. Not knowing something just kills us. People also seem to have a difficult time wrapping their heads around what is true oblivion, which is what I believe death is, unless you convinced there's something beyond to save you from it. We've all experienced this oblivion before,, before we were born. Which is to say of course that we didn't experience anything, because we were not a 'we' yet. The other end is the same thing. We'll just cease to be. Not "being" is a terrifying prospect, especially in primitive cultures when we knew very little and everything we didnt' understand was a terrifying wonder. Superstition precedes reason when you haven't got a basis for reason like in humanity's childhood. Gods answer all questions that we can't. Gods distract us from the fear of oblivion. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Yes. In evolutionary terms, having our brains "wired" in such a way is a form of environmental adaptation. It could be the physical environment or even a political environment. In order to survive long enough to successfully create genetic offspring, humans have been able to convince themselves of all sorts of things. A good example of this adaptation is perhaps the late passing of Kim Jong-il. The North Korean people mourned his passing as though he were their god. Why? Because once a totalitarian government has control over your very existence, like food, one will do and believe anything to survive. That's what Orwell was getting at in 1984 where O'Brian was breaking Winston down in Room 101. "Sometimes they are five [fingers]. Sometimes they are three. Sometimes they are all of them at once," O'Brian explained to Winston as he tortured his "mental illness" out of him. So don't be too hard on z0eboy. He's simply adapting to the cultural and political environment he lives in. Evolutionary terms are completely consistent with theological terms. Though I'll add that there is nothing that is evolutionary beneficial from conscious thought. Sure, the products of conscious thoughts like recognition and reaction or whatever, are evolutionary useful, but we could have derived all those benefits through compulsions. But we are not machines, even if a machine would be much better in evolutionary terms. Simply, why do we perceive and not merely sense and react? I can't help but intuit some higher order. I can't reason my way to that conclusion, but I can't reason my way to a lot of conclusions. Why not believe? The hypothesis for belief is at least as solid as the alternative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexey Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 I think we're more wired to require an answer, and in the absence of one, will make one up that covers it all.Not knowing something just kills us. .... Gods answer all questions that we can't. Gods distract us from the fear of oblivion. ~Bang I think there is also a social aspect there. As social beings, we try to find our place in a social hierarchy. There is a natural drive to see something at the top of the hierarchy and to submit to it, to please it. It is not an accident that human leaders were frequently equated to Gods in early human cultures. Wanting to find and submit to a higher power is just one of many natural human impulses. Faith does not have to be contaminated with these natural drives, but it frequently is. This is why I think it is important for us to know ourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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