HuffPo: UC Davis Police Pepper-Spray Seated Students In Occupy Dispute (VIDEO) (UPDATES)

[AsburySkinsFan]

Thiebear:

I just wanted to drop you a note to say that I'm sorry that we've had such a serious misunderstanding. I never called you a racist nor suggested that you'd stand by while people were killed, honestly I thought you'd know me better than that. The only thing I was making reference to were the tactics of the lunch counter sit-ins. For my part I apologize for not being more clear and offending you. We don't have to agree but I hope we can continue to debate without thinking we're calling each other racists, I had hoped that we would be able to give each other at least that much of the benefit of the doubt. I am sorry.

Asbury

[ixcuincle]

That's sad

I'll have to see what the students are doing though, if they were vociferous or causing a ruckus

[TimmySmith]

I do have to observe. I'm a big believer in the rule of "your right to swing your arm stops at the other guy's nose".

Then shouldn't you also believe that your right to protest stops right where if affects my right to peacibly walk on the sidewalk? Why would we want protest to escalate before taking appropriate action.

That said. I disagree with the the pepperspray. Just remove them.

[Kilmer17]

How do you remove them?

Larry, my understanding was that they were breaking the law by staying in that place. If that is incorrect, then I stand corrected.

[Corcaigh]

Yeah, as I've said before, I want to feel sympathetic toward OWS, but I don't really know what they're all about. Hell, I don't even know if they know what they're about.

If someone from OWS can give me a PowerPoint presentation or a ten point plan or something, then we'll talk. Right now, it just looks like a bunch of loose, ambiguous protests.

Maybe you expect too much from a protest which is just a few weeks old.

Maybe the message is "**** this ****, this is not the American democracy I thought I was part of".

Now, how we get from where we are today, to where we want to be is the question that perhaps everyone, other than the 1%, should be asking. "Throw the bums out" is a start.

[Larry]

How do you remove them?

Larry, my understanding was that they were breaking the law by staying in that place. If that is incorrect, then I stand corrected.

They're sitting on a public sidewalk. Which law?

[Kilmer17]

The University called the police and asked them to remove the protestors. The police were greeted with-

"Some students shouted "Thugs on campus!" and "From Davis to Greece, **** the police!" "

At that point, the protestors earned their tears.

[Larry]

Then shouldn't you also believe that your right to protest stops right where if affects my right to peacibly walk on the sidewalk? Why would we want protest to escalate before taking appropriate action.

You missed my point. My point was exactly that.

I said I can see the argument that society does have the right to mandate that the Constitutional right to peaceful protest isn't as important as rules against being vociferous or annoying people. (In case you can't tell from my tone, I'm not really impressed with that argument. But I'm saying I can see it.)

OTOH, honesty also compels me to ask myself:

If

this protest was deliberately blocking public access. (I'm not certain it was. That's why I'm asking.). . .

And

if

I adopt the rule that, say, the Constitution is more important than a sidewalk, and the Constitution should overrule any law saying that it's illegal to obstruct a sidewalk . . .

Then

what do I say when some right to life group decides that they have the right to prevent anybody from entering an abortion clinic? To simply form a barricade around the place and not allow anybody through? For months?

OTOH, if I adopt the position that the Constitutional right to protest isn't more important than the laws against jaywalking, then what have I said about the importance of the Constitution?

---------- Post added November-21st-2011 at 09:56 AM ----------

The University called the police and asked them to remove the protestors. The police were greeted with-

"Some students shouted "Thugs on campus!" and "From Davis to Greece, **** the police!" "

At that point, the protestors earned their tears.

Oh, the horrors!

You mean they said something you don't like?

Well, that settles it. After all, saying things people don't like isn't allowed, here.

Don't like it? Move some place where protesting is allowed.

(Have I adequately disposed of that argument, yet? Or do I need to keep ladling it on?)

[Corcaigh]

If this incidence of police behavior is reasonable, then the least they should do is have their buddies at NYPD take their eyes of the drum circle for a few minutes, and head into the skyscrapers on Wall Street, and pepper spray the bankers occupying the upper floors and executive suites. They are responsible for stealing billions through their fraudulent mortgage-backed securities.

Apparently we have unlimited law enforcement resources to circle, asssault and arrest protesters on the street for minor transgressions, but we lack the resources or desire to oversee and prosecute those responsible for a crimewave which has been going on for years in the financial sector.

[twa]

They're sitting on a public sidewalk. Which law?

The CA law prohibiting blocking a public sidewalk, there is also a ADA law(though I saw no wheelchair:silly:)

added

Your assertion of spin is about as amusing as your lack of a good argument

[Kilmer17]

You missed my point. My point was exactly that.

I said I can see the argument that society does have the right to mandate that the Constitutional right to peaceful protest isn't as important as rules against being vociferous or annoying people. (In case you can't tell from my tone, I'm not really impressed with that argument. But I'm saying I can see it.)

OTOH, honesty also compels me to ask myself:

If

this protest was deliberately blocking public access. (I'm not certain it was. That's why I'm asking.). . .

And

if

I adopt the rule that, say, the Constitution is more important than a sidewalk, and the Constitution should overrule any law saying that it's illegal to obstruct a sidewalk . . .

Then

what do I say when some right to life group decides that they have the right to prevent anybody from entering an abortion clinic? To simply form a barricade around the place and not allow anybody through? For months?

OTOH, if I adopt the position that the Constitutional right to protest isn't more important than the laws against jaywalking, then what have I said about the importance of the Constitution?

---------- Post added November-21st-2011 at 09:56 AM ----------

Oh, the horrors!

You mean they said something you don't like?

Well, that settles it. After all, saying things people don't like isn't allowed, here.

Don't like it? Move some place where protesting is allowed.

(Have I adequately disposed of that argument, yet? Or do I need to keep ladling it on?)

So again I'll ask Larry. How SHOULD the police deal with a situation like that?

[Larry]

The CA law prohibiting blocking a public sidewalk, there is also a ADA law(though I saw no wheelchair:silly:)

1) Are you sure they were blocking the sidewalk? (Honest question. I don't know.)

2) Do you really want to argue that the Constitutional protection of the right to peaceful protest is less important than a state law prohibiting jaywalking?

[Thiebear]

Thiebear:

I just wanted to drop you a note to say that I'm sorry that we've had such a serious misunderstanding. I never called you a racist nor suggested that you'd stand by while people were killed, honestly I thought you'd know me better than that. The only thing I was making reference to were the tactics of the lunch counter sit-ins. For my part I apologize for not being more clear and offending you. We don't have to agree but I hope we can continue to debate without thinking we're calling each other racists, I had hoped that we would be able to give each other at least that much of the benefit of the doubt. I am sorry.

You're sorry i misunderstood you thats what you write?

(You would have been fun to listen to in Selma during the 50's.) ** Show me in this quote where it says sit in or counter or lunch?

What happened in Selma? (though you meant 60's) how many people died during the peaceful protest, was the KKK involved? The answer to both is Yes.

You were correct in what happened on UC Davis Campus, just stop trying to use over the top comparisons just because someones comment following yours happened to be wrong.

I stated i was WRONG on the intial comment to the captioned picture later on and you were correct.

Edit: Since you won't i will, only person on ignore since Crazyhorse1... (try not to quote me now you know).

[Larry]

So again I'll ask Larry. How SHOULD the police deal with a situation like that?

Uh, follow the Constitution?

Just a thought.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Yes, please all protestors be sure to obey the regulations regarding your protests, please be sure to gain approval to assemble, please fill out the applicable forms in triplicate, please refrain from protesting in any way that might cause a disruption. As long as you follow these rules we will be sure to ignore your protests, and if you do not follow these rules then we will not only ignore you but we will blame you for when police act wrongly.

Sincerely

The Establishment

[Kilmer17]

Uh, follow the Constitution?

Just a thought.

So now you're claiming the Police violated the Constitution? Which part?

And once you realize how stupid that argument was, you could take a moment to answer this question posed the third time- WHAT SHOULD THE COPS HAVE DONE?

---------- Post added November-21st-2011 at 10:07 AM ----------

Yes, please all protestors be sure to obey the regulations regarding your protests, please be sure to gain approval to assemble, please fill out the applicable forms in triplicate, please refrain from protesting in any way that might cause a disruption. As long as you follow these rules we will be sure to ignore your protests, and if you do not follow these rules then we will not only ignore you but we will blame you for when police act wrongly.

Sincerely

The Establishment

They should realize and accept that there are risks involved. In fact, that's one of the reasons the movement gets publicity.

Nobody would give a crap if it was a bunch of hippies on a commune in Wyoming doing the same thing.

[AsburySkinsFan]

You're sorry i misunderstood you thats what you write?

Actually, I wrote "For my part I apologize for not being more clear and offending you."

(You would have been fun to listen to in Selma during the 50's.) ** Show me in this quote where it says sit in or counter or lunch?

You're right, but then when looking at the tactics of the Occupy movement I have more than once referenced the lunch counter sit-ins in other threads, and I admit that I should have done so again here for clarity.

What happened in Selma? (though you meant 60's) how many people died during the peaceful protest, was the KKK involved? The answer to both is Yes.

But those weren't the only things to happen.

You were correct in what happened on UC Davis Campus, just stop trying to use over the top comparisons just because someones comment following yours happened to be wrong.

You're right it was over the top, and had I referenced the lunch counters again it could have framed it more accurately.

I stated i was WRONG on the intial comment to the captioned picture later on and you were correct.

:peace1:

---------- Post added November-21st-2011 at 10:12 AM ----------

They should realize and accept that there are risks involved. In fact, that's one of the reasons the movement gets publicity.

Nobody would give a crap if it was a bunch of hippies on a commune in Wyoming doing the same thing.

Oh I know, and honestly :secret: The police officer actually did them a favor, because had they actually carried them off it may have made the local paper but nothing more, his mistake and over-reaction gave this protest while very small a lot more publicity than it would have otherwise.

[Larry]

So now you're claiming the Police violated the Constitution? Which part?

Uh, by committing unprovoked assault against people whose only "crime" was exercising a Constitutional right?

THEY SHOULD HAVE DONE NOTHING. AMERICAN CITIZENS ARE PEACEFULLY EXERCISING A CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT.

Just because somebody phones the cops and says "somebody is doing something I don't like" does not automatically compell a violent response.

I don't like where my neighbor parks his car overnight. It makes it inconvenient when I'm backing out the driveway in the morning.

But if I call the cops and tell them to move his car, using force if necessary, whet they SHOULD do is tell me to go perform an unnatural act on a rolling doughnut, because this is America, and my neighbor has that right.

[Kilmer17]

Again, the University asked the police to remove them. At that point, they no longer had the right to sit and protest at that spot.

[Thiebear]

They did form a ring around the cops in the middle and sit.

1. The cops could have walked out of the ring at any time just by walking through the thinnest part.

2. The cops if wanting to disperse the crowd AT WORST could have wrote: NO SITTING HERE on the pavement with the pepperspray in the middle and walked away. The "remnants" is enough to clear the area..

3. They took 10 away and the rest left anyway, so hindsight shows the gallon of spray in the face was brutal.

[Larry]

Again, the University asked the police to remove them. At that point, they no longer had the right to sit and protest at that spot.

Because "a phone call from a University" outweighs "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.", right?

I want the police to remove my neighbor from his house. How SHOULD the police handle that?

[Kilmer17]

What if you wanted the police to remove the nighbor from your lawn?

[mcsluggo]

u dont get it? go away and get a job LOSER! or get ur ASS kicked.

I haven't made it through the thread yet... but I am willing to make a bet (with myself) that this charming gentleman was shown the door... I hope I am correct.

[Jumbo]

I haven't made it through the thread yet... but I am willing to make a bet (with myself) that this charming gentleman was shown the door... I hope I am correct.

I may have forgot to open it first. But I don't carry pepper spray.

[Larry]

What if you wanted the police to remove the nighbor from your lawn?

Am I the government?

Is it your position that the Constitutional right to protest only exists when the protester is on property he personally owns?

Is the Constitution worth anything to you?