Obersations from being at the Redskins-Bills Game

[pjfootballer]

You know what's funny? I'm not mad :mad: anymore. I have no more anger left. Now I'm just sad.

[hunterx]

I went to the game in Toronto and have quite a few observations:

(1) I don't think our WR are the problem ... In watching John Beck play he is unable to make the reads quick enough. He is indecisive and holds on to the ball too long. There was one play late in the game (after the game was out of reach) where Helu was waving his arms (looked like he was doing jumping jacks) he was wide open with no one within 20 yards of him. Beck threw the ball at a well covered WR. I know ... Helu is a RB, there were opportunities during the game to hit WRs, it looks as though Beck can only hit them when they are at the end of a route and not while they are in the midst of running the route. Beck also keys in on a target too often.

While I appreciate your observations, the only one that you provided that we couldn't see on TV was Helu doing jumping jacks. Not sure I saw that one, but I did see his frustration of not getting checked down to at all. It's also apparent we see more on TV because fletcher played far from awesome. He got blocked, missed a few tackles and was poor a few times in coverage. Torain wasn't breaking tackles because he couldn't get past the line without being hit by 2 defenders at a time. Our OL was disgusting.

[PlayAction]

You know what's funny? I'm not mad :mad: anymore. I have no more anger left. Now I'm just sad.

I'm ahead of you....I only watch the game off DVR so I can skip over the low lights.

Unfortunately, it appears there will be many low lights for the rest of the season. I think the main issue is with the OL rather than QB. Teams are going to stack the box against the Skins. The OL isn't good enough to establish the run in those situations. And, the OL can't pass protect long enough for the deeper pass routes to develop. So, it will be short quick routes right into the thick of the defense.

[skins2victory]

I'm still wondering where the mobility is in Beck's game. And was the Stadium open? How do you drop the ball when taking off on a late run out of the pocket? Let's face it we are Just not a good TEAM. We could have Joe Montana in there and he'd have had the same results I think.

Umm.... No!! Go back and watch the tape. The WR got open quite often, not every play, but there were many opportunities on many plays that were simply missed. Joe Montana would certainly be able to find open receivers leading to a much different outcome.

[SkinsCrushCowboys]

I'm not one for the West Coasters but what about Matt Barkley? Luck is out of the question.

That is who I am looking at....I think he will be failry quick to pick up the NFL game...smaller that I would like at 6-2

[WeThreeKingsRuleU]

Its not Kyle Shanahan. He calls plays, people get open, qb either doesnt throw quick enough or throws to someone who is covered.

I still p[lace blame with Kyle, he organizes the Offense. Now someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this information came to light when we first brough in McNabb: doesn't Kyle design plays and calls plays where the QB has only one target? That there's no progression, and he is told to throw it to X receiver on this play? It would make sense, seeing some of the boneheaded throws that both Rex and Beck have made all year, especially the ones into double and triple coverage. I duess it makes sense from the standpoint that we're giving them alot of looks, but based on what play is called to go to whcih receiver, it's Kyle dictating where the ball is going to be thrown, and Kyle dictating where the coverage is supposed to go to be effective. Downside to that is, if you're a smart defensive player, and you know the situation, and you've seen the game film before and can recognize the play called and you know where the ball is going, then all you have to do is to win your one on one matchup and you're in great position to make a play. All the mystery is gone.

Has anyone seen either of the QB's make any calls or changes at the LOS before the snap? Are they reading the defense and trying to find the favorable matchups, or weaknesses in the D?

Kyle's offense may work just yet, with more talented players, too bad we don't have the tools to help him out.

[Mocountyskins]

You must not have watched Torrain in all his other games. The one thing he was really good at was bulling through the first guy.

Torain has ran over like 3 ppl who were cornerbacks and safetys. Yet people think he trucks people all the time anytime a Linebacker or a lineman meets Torain he either goes down or he runs over the person but he falls down in the process and doesnt "break" the tackle

[Bobbyst21]

I still p[lace blame with Kyle, he organizes the Offense. Now someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this information came to light when we first brough in McNabb: doesn't Kyle design plays and calls plays where the QB has only one target? That there's no progression, and he is told to throw it to X receiver on this play?

This is the first ive heard about it. I would really hope this is not true. If it is then he should be fired yesterday as we will never have a chance to win anything with the OC telling the qb who he has to throw the ball to regardless.

[sharkproof]

I'm not one for the West Coasters but what about Matt Barkley? Luck is out of the question.

I was thinking the same thing... He looked vg against Stanford Sat. night.

[WeThreeKingsRuleU]

This is the first ive heard about it. I would really hope this is not true. If it is then he should be fired yesterday as we will never have a chance to win anything with the OC telling the qb who he has to throw the ball to regardless.

uhhh, turns out I may be wrong. I'm not sure where I read it, but I'm fairly sure I read it somewhere, possibly during the "McNabb wouldn't wear the wristband" thread, which, btw, I haven't seen Rex or Beck wearing a wristband, but then again, they may have actually studied the playbook, and know where the plays are supposed to go.

I did, however, find this thread:

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?337834-Reading-the-Kyle-Shanahan-Offense

seems the progression is long, middle, short, which again, is understandable if you have a Matt Schaub gunning it out to an Andre Johnson who is tall and can win the jump ball competition 9 times out of 10. But, when you have an o-line that couldn't pass protect against an offensive line comprised of department store manequin's, and your first read is the deep ball, and your second read is the long developing intermediate route over the middle, then, you end up with 9 sacks on the day. Simple as that.

[Conn]

Thanks fer the obersations, they was a good reed.

[Chase M]

IMO the fact that Beck couldn't lead this team to 1pt....one stickin point in the 60mins of gametime he was given against the 31st ranked defense is all that needs to be said. I don't give a frikin damn if he has pee wee football players on the O-line. That dude has thee worst vision, accuarcy and footing I've ever seen. I swear I'm not trying to make this a Rex/Beck arguement/ debate because I want them both shipped off on a boat to an island somewhere, but Rex at least could get us 1 ****ing point. Ugh.

[Aghar]

I saw a few replays where the reciever was breaking into an open area and Beck had a second to throw and he would either take a sack or throw to the covered receiver. He didnt have all the time in the world, but he had 3-4 seconds to get rid of the ball. I know i am watching replays, but a pro QB who knows the offense should be able to see the holes in the defense and know tehre is a route going to that area, especially when it is being seen by someone who DOESNT know the offense in replays. He didnt. And he didnt know that consistenetly. I had decent hope for Beck, not that he would turn into a superstar, but that he would be serviceable. Now, he can barely get the ball off becuase he doesnt process it fast enough or he locks onto receivers. Its not Kyle Shanahan. He calls plays, people get open, qb either doesnt throw quick enough or throws to someone who is covered.

And for people talking about the line, wait for Trent Williams to come back. Most teams would have a hard time playing without their stud left tackle (that is unless they are playing us, becuase we dont attack weaknesses) Although i do agree that we will still need to draft or develop some depth across the line.

I guess the largest part in everyone's argument is that isn't Kyle's fault and it is the QBs' fault. This just cannot be. The reason I say that is Kyle has stated three times about three different QBs that they COULD run his system. Yet, now, in hindsight, none of them could? In my opinion it is one of two things going on here -

The QBs hand selected by Kyle and Dad are not as good as advertised. Therefore, when they selected them to run this offense they were sorely mistaken. So, it's their(Kyle and Dad) fault.

OR

The QBs or at least one of them could actually run this offense properly yet the plays being called are not producing results. Therefore, it's their fault.

I, like everyone else would like to think that Kyle's system is not flawed and that with the "right" personnel it could succeed in today's NFL. But when the first major component is finding the guy to run it properly and you fail to find that guy, not once, not twice, but three times in 2 years. Geezz...That makes the credibility drop a bit doesn't it? I'm not throwing just Kyle and Shanny under the bus. There is plenty of blame to go around on this team. Everyone can see that. However, I will no longer give a pass to those at the top of the chain. It starts there.

[Burgold]

I still p[lace blame with Kyle, he organizes the Offense. Now someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this information came to light when we first brough in McNabb: doesn't Kyle design plays and calls plays where the QB has only one target? That there's no progression, and he is told to throw it to X receiver on this play? It would make sense, seeing some of the boneheaded throws that both Rex and Beck have made all year, especially the ones into double and triple coverage. I duess it makes sense from the standpoint that we're giving them alot of looks, but based on what play is called to go to whcih receiver, it's Kyle dictating where the ball is going to be thrown, and Kyle dictating where the coverage is supposed to go to be effective. Downside to that is, if you're a smart defensive player, and you know the situation, and you've seen the game film before and can recognize the play called and you know where the ball is going, then all you have to do is to win your one on one matchup and you're in great position to make a play. All the mystery is gone.

Has anyone seen either of the QB's make any calls or changes at the LOS before the snap? Are they reading the defense and trying to find the favorable matchups, or weaknesses in the D?

Edit: Nevermind. You corrected yourself. Good job.

Kyle's offense may work just yet, with more talented players, too bad we don't have the tools to help him out.

This is not true. We have heard many times how the progression for qb reads go from deep in and how that was the opposite progression that McNabb was used to... that was the excuse McNabb had for his ill comfort.

Edit: Nevermind. You corrected yourself. Nice catch.

[Bat~man]

Ryan Torrain can break tackles, he has proven that.

What he can not do is break tackles of an entire d-line + linebackers coming down on him as soon as he hits the line... he needs a hole opened up to at least be able to build some momentum to break a tackle. I'm sorry, RT isn't the best Rb and he is also made of glass, but, he can bulldoze your butt over when he gets going.

[konga2145]

Wish everyone would let the year run out before throwing us to dogs. Even super bowl teams get shut out once in a while. The last I looked we were 3-4 and tied for 2nd place. I remember times where we were at 500 with just 5 games left and people were rooting for them to make playoffs. They will come out on fire against niners next week with our lineman back and all you boo hooers will stop crying

[Burgold]

I guess the largest part in everyone's argument is that isn't Kyle's fault and it is the QBs' fault. This just cannot be. The reason I say that is Kyle has stated three times about three different QBs that they COULD run his system. Yet, now, in hindsight, none of them could? In my opinion it is one of two things going on here -

The other common denomenator is the o-line. An oline that bad is going to result in bad qb play.

[skinsmania123]

I'm not going to deny that on occasion there was a WR open, but the question was when did they get open? After the play was breaking down in the backfield about 2.5 seconds after the ball was snapped? Beck didn't look good by any means but to place the blame on him is crazy. He was hit almost every time he dropped back. That would make Tom Brady "jumpy" in the pocket if you ask me. And since I have seen it posted somewhere in one of these threads I will restate it here. When a defense has its ears pinned back and are teeing off on your QB could we at least try a screen pass to see if it gets us anything? If nothing else, a play where your QB actually remains upright!? :whoknows:

I think you are exactly correct. The playcalling did not reflect flexibility to what was happening on the field. The other question I have is even if John Beck says in effect, "it is all on me" legitimately speaking, how much time does a QB need to make a few progressions before throwing the ball? If your primary target is blanketed and the DL is already on you in effect, where is your drop off? According to Aikman who was announcing the game, he kept focusing on the "time" required for any QB to make a read and get rid of the ball and he did not believe Beck had that time.

When I listened to Shanny's presser I think he was covering his ass. I mean if you are not going to adjust to all out blitzes when they are only bringing 3 guys and getting to your QB in less then 2.5-2.3, I think it is on the playcaller. You have to adjust and have an outlet. Calling screens would have helped, but my other question is how good is Torain or Helu at receiving? See I missed Hightower in this game. He would have blocked out for Beck or gone out for a short screen. It seemed no one took the pressure off him.

[RedskinsInFebruary]

I'm not sure how you can eval anything--Kyle, Beck, Grossman, our receivers, our backs--with such horrible OL play. I'm sorry, nothing is going to go right with that going on, not even on defense.

I think we knew going in our achilles would be injury to our OL, because we barely had starters and no quality backups. Not the way I'd run a team, but then again we had to make trade-offs somewhere after so many years of trading away picks.

[DC_BearsFan]

seems the progression is long, middle, short, which again, is understandable if you have a Matt Schaub gunning it out to an Andre Johnson who is tall and can win the jump ball competition 9 times out of 10. But, when you have an o-line that couldn't pass protect against an offensive line comprised of department store manequin's, and your first read is the deep ball, and your second read is the long developing intermediate route over the middle, then, you end up with 9 sacks on the day. Simple as that.

Not if the QB makes these reads fast. There is no reason why a qb can't make a long-med-short read in under 3 seconds. Usually I think they can rule at least 1 read out on the LOS based on the defensive formation. I think Beck is a smart guy and can make the reads, but I don't think he is decisive enough to make the throw IMMEDIATLY once he has gone through his progression.

[Ghost of]

The other common denomenator is the o-line. An oline that bad is going to result in bad qb play.

'cept that many have been saying that the entire time. NO matter the O-line personnel, if we had poor QB play, we ALWAYS heard "no one can succeed with this offensive line." Meanwhile, the TRUTH is that we've had decent play, and even in lean years had some good games with pass pro and the same issues.

[Burgold]

'cept that many have been saying that the entire time. NO matter the O-line personnel, if we had poor QB play, we ALWAYS heard "no one can succeed with this offensive line." Meanwhile, the TRUTH is that we've had decent play, and even in lean years had some good games with pass pro and the same issues.

Nah, we've had bad to mediocre o line play for years now. I guess we were pretty good in the Samuels, Jansen, Thomas period, but that seems a long time ago...

[THEREALTOR1]

uhhh, turns out I may be wrong. I'm not sure where I read it, but I'm fairly sure I read it somewhere, possibly during the "McNabb wouldn't wear the wristband" thread, which, btw, I haven't seen Rex or Beck wearing a wristband, but then again, they may have actually studied the playbook, and know where the plays are supposed to go.

I did, however, find this thread:

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?337834-Reading-the-Kyle-Shanahan-Offense

seems the progression is long, middle, short, which again, is understandable if you have a Matt Schaub gunning it out to an Andre Johnson who is tall and can win the jump ball competition 9 times out of 10. But, when you have an o-line that couldn't pass protect against an offensive line comprised of department store manequin's, and your first read is the deep ball, and your second read is the long developing intermediate route over the middle, then, you end up with 9 sacks on the day. Simple as that.

And this really makes me wonder why if a semi-competent QB, who's been in the league for years, obviously has a hell of a desire to be a starting QB, and has studied his ass off regarding this playbook, is unable to have success, why some people on here believe that a rookie QB straight off of his final college exam can walk in here and immediately the Skins will become a superbowl contender? Also, It really makes me start to wonder whats going on with our WR corp, or is it the O line, or is it really the QB, or does there need to be a relief valve built into every play because of a combination of the aforementioned pieces that won't allow this offensive scheme to be effective? Because without the hogs blocking, 3 Calvin Johnson clones, and a drew brees style QB, it doesn't seem like anyone is going to be able to effectively work their way through this playbook and be effective with it consistently. It can't really be that damn difficult, can it?