Hell

[AsburySkinsFan]

Right but my argument is this, and I'm making a broad assumption that in the afterlife, you still have human reasoning, etc. Suppose your average atheist dies and is told he can't enter heaven or be close to God because he had no relationship with him on earth. Would he care, since he didn't believe in the first place? Would he truly suffer emotionally or psychologically? And honestly, is his sin as great as that of a child rapist/murderer? To me, someone like that doesn't deserve fire and brimstone. So if there's an in-between sort of place, does it mirror this world or something similar? In which case, again, would they really care?

I think she would care, here's my reasoning. In life we experience the goodness of God everyday whether we acknowledge it or not it is there around us, and whether or not we believe that God's goodness is around us doesn't have any affect on the reality that it is there, as such in death the absence of that goodness will definitely be felt and experienced. However, as I stated in my GWOT I tend toward annihilationism, which means that the one who is lost is destroyed and does not experience eternity but instead, as scripture states, dies the second death.

Like I said before, I do believe in God but am not a dedicated Christian, don't go to church much, don't really do a lot of "good works." I'm sure I haven't done nearly enough to get into heaven, and since I'm genuinely curious to know what the best the afterlife has to offer is like, it would hurt to not make it there. But I can't imagine I'd be sent to a fire and brimstone sort of existence when I live a generally good life, treat my wife and kids well, take care of my family, etc.

Here's the rub with what the Bible teaches, we are lost from God not so much on the basis of which particular sins we commit but instead we are lost from God on the basis of our sinful nature. Think of it as if the sinful nature is an infection and the sinful acts are the fever, swelling, redness, soreness and gangrene. If a doctor decided the the best course was to treat the redness and swelling and our fever, but neglected the thing which causes those symptoms it wouldn't be long before we died, because our problem was not so much the fever, swelling and redness, our problem was the infection that was causing those things. It is like that with our lives, sure we can see that lying and stealing probably aren't as "bad" as pedophilia and murder, but the reality is that each of those things are just the symptoms of the underlying infection of the sinful nature/stain upon each of us, and it is the stain that needs to be dealt with otherwise we'll die of the infection.

---------- Post added October-28th-2011 at 11:03 AM ----------

Who knows...I have a feeling this is the sort of thread that's right in ASF's wheelhouse, as long as he can avoid getting into arguments like he seems to do everywhere else

I love this stuff, as far as my arguments everywhere else that's just me being antagonistic, I like to poke with the stick to see if the bird is really dead.

[Jumbo]

I think these threads are particularly interesting to many non-believers or non-Christian/Muslim/Judaism folks. In my circle, the most common frame I hear endorsed is the "realtionship with God" theme, usually attached to some idea of extended concousness of identity after "physical death" or lack thereof attached to some type of unimaginable pain/longing out of awareness of having screwed it up.

Often, when folks get into the details of what "places" and "stages" are part of the process, all hell :evilg: breaks loose.

One thing I tend to tell any Christian acquaintances who seem to be big on definitively declaring who's going to "heaven" and who isn't (whether they mention hell or not) is to not be so presumptuous to speak for God with 100% surety. I'll tell them I understand they're using the Bible's dictates (if they are) to make their assessment and claims of someone's likelihood of "making it", but to never assume they have the right answer in the end.

I'll say to them that if some "supreme deity" that has a benign relationship with mankind exists, they may find that the atheist or Shaman who has lived a good life does get in and the "active" Christian who committed whatever "sins" without true repentance, or maybe the worshiper who acts outwardly correct only out of fear of Holy reprisal, just might not.

I point out to them that I'd allow for such a supreme being to not necessarily be so easily pigeon-holed in making such ultimately important choices, even if one is going by the Bible/Koran/Tanakh in their thinking, or even specifically by words assigned to Jesus or Mohammed at some point in time. Even deities, if existing, might make judgments in context at times rather than by never-varying rote.

When I was a kid/early teen (raised in a half-Catholic half-fundamentalist Protestant family but also mostly lived with a Buddhist family from 14-19) I used to think about a "loving and forgiving God" and all this sin/good works/choice of faith/heaven-hell/reward-punishment/free will (how free is it then, really?) etc.

And then I would imagine a God who "allowed" all these people to think what they want and do what thye do but then when they died everyone "got in" and was forgiven no matter what they did or didn't do. And that would be the big surprise. This scenario--for obvious reasons to many---was firmly and decidedly (and, of course, properly, according to their dogma) slapped down with the predictable arguments by every form of clergy I ever shared it with :pfft:.

My "imagining" had any "afterlife punishment" (or negative consequence of one's choices if you prefer) being even the most evil folks would realize how unnecessary and pointless the pain they inflicted really was, and would maybe meet their victims in this place where everyone just felt awesomely great and forgave everyone and to live their eternity with that awareness--sort of carrying a deeply painful guilt of a type (my Catholic side ) even though they wre "home free."

Ah, good times.

(hey, I was a kid who also read a lot of science fiction and comics---cut me some slack )

[Corcaigh]

Hell is a personal thing.

For me it would be eternity spent with fundamentalists of any flavor. :evilg: But they're the ones most certain they have a ticket to the right side of the tracks in the afterlife.

And I don't want to go to Heaven because, from what I've been told by the religious, none of my friends or the people I admire will be there.

While some extended overtime play would be nice , I don't expect to be doing anything much after my last heartbeat. And that's all my God-given brain has got to say about that.

---------- Post added October-28th-2011 at 11:50 AM ----------

we are lost from God on the basis of our sinful nature. Think of it as if the sinful nature is an infection and the sinful acts are the fever, swelling, redness, soreness and gangrene.

I am fortunate to not be created as one of God's creatures. So I don't have that nasty infection. That clinic you attend on Sundays really doesn't seem to be doing a good job of clearing it up, based on the way y'all behave.

[AsburySkinsFan]

I am fortunate to not be created as one of God's creatures. So I don't have that nasty infection. That clinic you attend on Sundays really doesn't seem to be doing a good job of clearing it up, based on the way y'all behave.

Are you going to attack or discuss?

[Corcaigh]

Are you going to attack or discuss?

Take it as you see fit. I think it's a very strange analogy. That people are born inherently flawed. To paraphrase George Box, it may be a useful model to explain why the majority of people behave so badly, but that doesn't make it correct.

[TimmySmith]

Take it as you see fit. I think it's a very strange analogy. That people are born inherently flawed. To paraphrase George Box, it may be a useful model to explain why the majority of people behave so badly, but that doesn't make it correct.

A "majority" of people behave badly? I do not think you hate God, it appears you hate man.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Take it as you see fit. I think it's a very strange analogy. That people are born inherently flawed. To paraphrase George Box, it may be a useful model to explain why the majority of people behave so badly, but that doesn't make it correct.

I'm just explaining what the Bible teaches according to historic Christian belief.

[No Excuses]

Are you allowed to meet people in hell? Would be nice to meet my ancestors. Also have conversations with Darwin, Einstein and Gandhi. At least Jeffrey Dahmer wont be there.

[AsburySkinsFan]

A "majority" of people behave badly? I do not think you hate God, it appears you hate man.

All people behave badly.

Romans 3:22-25 For there is no distinction, since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God; they are now justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a sacrifice of atonement by his blood, effective through faith.

[Corcaigh]

A "majority" of people behave badly?

That's my gut. Have a majority of adults committed a serious crime, had an affair, been an irresponsible parent, committed an act of violence against another? It seems like that.

[AsburySkinsFan]

That's my gut. Have a majority of adults committed a serious crime, had an affair, been an irresponsible parent, committed an act of violence against another? It seems like that.

It has been said that the sinfulness of humanity is one of the easiest things to prove.

[Mr. Sinister]

Are you allowed to meet people in hell? Would be nice to meet my ancestors. Also have conversations with Darwin, Einstein and Gandhi. At least Jeffrey Dahmer wont be there.

That's sort of what I was getting at as well.

[TimmySmith]

That's my gut. Have a majority of adults committed a serious crime, had an affair, been an irresponsible parent, committed an act of violence against another? It seems like that.

Since it would be impossible to prove, I'll leave you to your opinion. I have found in personal experience that a vast majority are kind and good. And yes, they do sin, all of them. It's called being "imperfect".

[AsburySkinsFan]

Since it would be impossible to prove, I'll leave you to your opinion. I have found in personal experience that a vast majority are kind and good. And yes, they do sin, all of them. It's called being "imperfect".

And it is that "imperfection" that separates us from God, it is that "imperfection" that needs to be dealt with according to Christian teaching in the New Testament.

[Corcaigh]

And yes, they do sin, all of them. It's called being "imperfect".

Again, I don't find that a useful model of the world. They need to try harder and do a better job. :-)

[CrypticVillain]

All month at church my pastor has had a "To Hell With The Devil" series. Coincidently he had a sermon on Hell this sunday. This is the second straight year he preached this sermon and it is always one part that get's me:

And in Matthew 12:40, Jesus Christ says:

"For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly: so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the HEART OF THE EARTH.

Ephesians 4:9, says of Jesus: "Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the LOWER PARTS OF THE EARTH."

"

That is weird enough, but then he combined it with this story:

Background on the Drilling to Hell story

By Rich Buhler

A geological group who drilled a hole about 14.4 kilometers deep in the crust of the earth are saying that they heard human screams. Screams have been heard from the condemned souls from earth's deepest hole. Terrified scientists are afraid they have let loose the evil powers of hell up to the earth's surface.

'The information we are gathering is so surprising, that we are sincerely afraid of what we might find down there,' stated Dr Azzacov, the manager of the project in remote Siberia.

Now I am not really sure about that drilling story, but I don't think my pastor would use it two years straight without it being a little bit valid.

I thought you were going to bring this up ASF, but you went a completely different route.

[Destino]

Before I can dive into what Hell might be I have to ask "what is it that would actually go there". The reason I say that is simple. Fire and brimstone (sulfur) is of little concern to a being that has no body to burn or senses to abuse. I have no understanding of the rules that would apply to the soul. How does it move? Can it think? What senses does it have? How is it affected by time?

[Corcaigh]

Now I am not really sure about that drilling story, but I don't think my pastor would use it two years straight without it being a little bit valid.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but your pastor should be on the Republican ticket with that level of bat**** insanity.

How often do you burn books, or witches, in your church?

[USS Redskins]

I remember a story my mother told me when I was young when I was asking her about Hell.

She told me that the Virgin Mary had told the children at Fatima (I think) what goes on in Hell. The kids passed the word along to the Pope at the time and he sealed the information away in the vatican. When a new pope was sworn in he was able to review the kids story and when he read the passage about hell he passed out cold for 2 days and nights.

I may have a few of the details wrong but thats pretty close.

[Jumbo]

That is weird enough, but then he combined it with this story:

Now I am not really sure about that drilling story, but I don't think my pastor would use it two years straight without it being a little bit valid.

As open-mined and benignly disposed to most religious folk as I am, I too file this kind of stuff under "bat-**** crazy."

[PeterMP]

All month at church my pastor has had a "To Hell With The Devil" series. Coincidently he had a sermon on Hell this sunday. This is the second straight year he preached this sermon and it is always one part that get's me:

Did you read the whole link:

"How did this story originate? Again, we will never really know. It is possible that somewhere in the world there has been a spooky experience during deep drilling operations. I don't know. According to an August 1989 article in 'Science' magazine, there is a Russian deep hole drilling project in Kola, near Murmansk, about 150 miles north of the Arctic Circle. Another German deep drilling experiment in north-east Bavaria has discovered warmer temperatures than were expected at certain drilling levels, although nothing even close to 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit.

Characteristic of many urban legends, this story was alleged to have occurred in an obscure part of the world where it would be virtually impossible to track down the facts. And once the story got started, people began quoting one another's newsletters to validate their own. This is the stuff of which tabloid newspapers are made. "

[Corcaigh]

I remember a story my mother told me when I was young when I was asking her about Hell.

She told me that the Virgin Mary had told the children at Fatima (I think) what goes on in Hell. The kids passed the word along to the Pope at the time and he sealed the information away in the vatican. When a new pope was sworn in he was able to review the kids story and when he read the passage about hell he passed out cold for 2 days and nights.

I may have a few of the details wrong but thats pretty close.

The Vatican has published the 'secrets of Fatima' if you want to read them.

[AsburySkinsFan]

All month at church my pastor has had a "To Hell With The Devil" series. Coincidently he had a sermon on Hell this sunday. This is the second straight year he preached this sermon and it is always one part that get's me:

Right Jesus goes into the tomb (earth) for three days in the same way that Jonah went into the belly of the fish for three days, if he is using a translation that says Jonah went into the earth for three days then that is a serious mistranslation.

koilia: belly

ketous: sea-monster

As for Jesus going into the heart of the earth for three days he is specifically pointing to the tomb, and not hell.

That is weird enough, but then he combined it with this story:

Now I am not really sure about that drilling story, but I don't think my pastor would use it two years straight without it being a little bit valid.

Ok, I've been doing this for awhile, and that is the first time that I have ever heard that before. #1 Heaven-Hell are not places you're going to climb to or dig to, they are the spiritual realms not places of creation. In other words we're not going to find a hole deep enough nor a telescope powerful enough to find either place.

I thought you were going to bring this up ASF, but you went a completely different route.

Yeah, the thought never occurred to me to go there.

[Mr. Sinister]

Did you read the whole link:

"How did this story originate? Again, we will never really know. It is possible that somewhere in the world there has been a spooky experience during deep drilling operations. I don't know. According to an August 1989 article in 'Science' magazine, there is a Russian deep hole drilling project in Kola, near Murmansk, about 150 miles north of the Arctic Circle. Another German deep drilling experiment in north-east Bavaria has discovered warmer temperatures than were expected at certain drilling levels, although nothing even close to 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit.

Characteristic of many urban legends, this story was alleged to have occurred in an obscure part of the world where it would be virtually impossible to track down the facts. And once the story got started, people began quoting one another's newsletters to validate their own. This is the stuff of which tabloid newspapers are made. "

Reminds me of that "Mel's Hole" story on Coast To Coast With Art Bell that I heard yeas ago. I've heard both stories a thousand times, and neither of them make any sense.

[Destino]

I remember a story my mother told me when I was young when I was asking her about Hell.

She told me that the Virgin Mary had told the children at Fatima (I think) what goes on in Hell. The kids passed the word along to the Pope at the time and he sealed the information away in the vatican. When a new pope was sworn in he was able to review the kids story and when he read the passage about hell he passed out cold for 2 days and nights.

I may have a few of the details wrong but thats pretty close.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000626_message-fatima_en.html

The first part is the vision of hell.

Our Lady showed us a great sea of fire which seemed to be under the earth. Plunged in this fire were demons and souls in human form, like transparent burning embers, all blackened or burnished bronze, floating about in the conflagration, now raised into the air by the flames that issued from within themselves together with great clouds of smoke, now falling back on every side like sparks in a huge fire, without weight or equilibrium, and amid shrieks and groans of pain and despair, which horrified us and made us tremble with fear. The demons could be distinguished by their terrifying and repulsive likeness to frightful and unknown animals, all black and transparent. This vision lasted but an instant. How can we ever be grateful enough to our kind heavenly Mother, who had already prepared us by promising, in the first Apparition, to take us to heaven. Otherwise, I think we would have died of fear and terror.