I feel for Kyle Shannahan-- Help on the way???

[grego]

You are the coach. Your task is to game plan for a 35 minute game where your team is handicapped by 20 points. So, you say your plan is the same as one for a 60-minute game with no handicap?

what i'm saying is that 30 or 35 minutes is more than enough time to not hit the panic button and start throwing the ball around. this position is even easier to swallow when your QB (who i supported) and WRs havent demonstrated any ability whatsoever to throw it, even when teams are supposedly stacking the box.

i realized we struggle to run when we tried yesterday. i also realize that we have struggled to pass- since game 1 this year. i dont see how trying to pound it is such a bad idea, given that we know our passing game sucks.

and, yes, i believe that not running cost us, in large part, a W vs dallas.

[gortiz]

The limitations of the playbook he is working with must be frustrating. He is forced to only use the middle of the field in the passing game.

this is so overlooked ... grossman is uncapable of throwing outs, curles or back shoulder throws. i woudl guess 85-90% of this throws are over the middle.

[HooSkins2]

It's evident that your many years of watching football have not made you any smarter than Kyle S. We intercept a pass mid way through the third qtr and get the ball on their 29 down 20 - 6. There is plenty of time to score twice without abandoning the run. What does Kyle do but call another pass that Rex can't throw to right team. This is what he has done all year. Kyle thinks he has Tom Brady at quarterback. Kyle called 12 running plays for the game. The other runs were by quartback scrambles. He has no business being an offensive coordinator until he learns how to use the talent that he has on a team. A good coordinator will adjust his scheme to fit his players that he has been given. Kyle has not learned that yet. And to your point there was a choice. It was not to late to still try running the ball.

[trez]

I'm done watching Rex Grossman.

[Bang]

Oldfan has it right.

we';re hamstrung by Rex, and we had to play catch up. Whether we had 30 or 40 minutes is not really relevant, because we kept turning the ball over to a very potent offense. As it is, our defense was up to the task of holding them to 20, but at some point you must score points,, and if the Eagles are stacking against the run, it's not so easy.

We can look at these teams that have gashed them and they all have something we don;'t... a QB to reckon with. With us, who cares if Rex is going to throw. The odds of him doing it right are not very good.

The Eagles sold out to stop the run and forced Rex to throw.

It's pretty obvious that Rex is incapable, not only because of the evidence we see in the INTS and underthrows, but he's not given any reads to make. Watch the game again,, he makes one read. occasionally two.. and then he either throws it away (occasionally) or tries to force it to his one read, and gets picked. 3 of those 4 picks yesterday were single read throws.

The Eagles get the film, they see this. Why do you think on those two INTs that he threw on the same skinny post route to Davis had 3 guys around him?

Because they know his progressions. (He doesn't have any)

Find his eyes at the snap or after the play action, and he tells you exactly where the ball will go. (Subtracting five yards for his noodle arm)

Cover it and count on him forcing it. He will.

~Bang

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

His QB is ****.

You can tailor a nice suit and put a turd in it, and it is still a sharp dressed piece of crap.

I'd hate to say this, but the fact is when you see the limited number of reads Rex has been allowed, that IS tailoring the offense to his talent... or more aptly, tailoring it to stay away from his deficiencies.

~Bang

So why continue to put the ball in his hands at various crucial times this season?

Hail.

[OlufemiBiz]

You catch their play calling on a CB radio? Let me know, I would love to know how many of the same plays were called.

How do we know a lot of these "bad plays" were because of audibles? What about if Grossman didn't take the shot down field on those interceptions, and hit the short-to-intermediate route instead? Would we be saying great plays?

We don't hear the plays called, we don't watch the gametape, so it's a bit ignorant to blame the play calling, right? If Peyton Manning was our QB, would all of a sudden the play calling be awesome?

I think the play calling worked well for Matt Schaub in Houston for a few years.

Start blaming the QB, as default, for making bad decisions.

Thanks for the "Common Sense" (which is so "UN-Common" these days - myself included) wisdom. Couldn't agree with you (and others who've expressed concurrent opinions) more.

I had been unfairly criticizing Kyle's play-calling, myself. And... after further review (from Kinshasa, DR Congo), I must humble myself and admit that I - not unlike many of my ES Colleagues - was WRONG. Rex Grossman is absolute "shyte" at QB. The Redskins had won those games IN-SPITE of Rex (with the exception - maybe -being against The Gnats, in Game #1), IMHO.

Beck enters (albeit way-too-late, IMHO): and, (Voila!) after shaking-off the rust, begins to 'click' in the passing game (with Receivers with whom he has probably NOT worked with since Pre-Season).Hmmm?!? Imagine that.

I fault Kyle (and, ostensibly, Mike) for NOT having relieved Rex of his duties AFTER the Cardinals Game. The ONLY Game in which Rex was adequate for our scheme was in Game #1 - versus The Gnats. He was a steadily-declining pitiful in every subsequent start.

We SHOULD HAVE "BLASTED" both the Cards & Rams - while also WHUPPING The Cow Chips by 10+ points. Rex "LOST" that Game, as he "almost-lost" the Cards & Rams Games, and lost The Beagles Game. With just "ADEQUATE (read: EFFICIENT)" QB-Play, we COULD have been "5-0"...

Hopefully, The "Head Shannahan" installs Beck as our QB going-further; or, maybe, pries Carson Palmer/"Some Other DECENT QB" away from some Team. I'm endorsing Beck,at this juncture.

[grego]

I fault Kyle (and, ostensibly, Mike) for NOT having relieved Rex of his duties AFTER the Cardinals Game. The ONLY Game in which Rex was adequate for our scheme was in Game #1 - versus The Gnats. He was a steadily-declining pitiful in every subsequent start.

We SHOULD HAVE "BLASTED" both the Cards & Rams - while also WHUPPING The Cow Chips by 10+ points. Rex "LOST" that Game,.

i agree 100% that rex has regressed each game and that he should be pulled.

i dont agree that he should have been pulled after arizona. remember, he played well after he struggled early. since then, i think he's looked ordinary to bad.

but your second point, i couldnt disagree with more. while rex didnt play well vs dallas, you excuse kyle. that game is exactly why i question kyles decision making. you have a lead, on the road, and the running starts to click. then you abandon it for the rest of the game. there is no excuse you can make for that mismanagement.

he may turn out to be a good playcaller with a competent QB- maybe beck can do better. i agree that he certainly looked better yesterday, no question. but rex is his guy and he seems to be the only who thinks he can run his system, when he clearly cannot.

again, its not all on kyle. our WR's and QB play has been mediocre overall at best. clearly we need to get better at those positions. then, i think he will have more success.

[Bang]

So why continue to put the ball in his hands at various crucial times this season?

Hail.

I think you've seen the last of that.

figure it this way.

It's crunch time, and you're the defensive coordinator.. . do you

A/ sell out on the run and dare Rex to beat you?

B/ Worry about Rex and leave possible running lanes?

(It's A)

~Bang

[Drew_Fl]

It's a conundrum b/c while it is Kyle/Mike handcuffed with the playcalling, it was Kyle/Mike who either pushed/settled for Rex Grossman who's ability to throw effectively outside the numbers has been discussed here plenty of times.

[P007]

The limitations of the playbook he is working with must be frustrating. He is forced to only use the middle of the field in the passing game. The Skins lack playmakers on the outside and a QB who can make those kind of throws. Opposing defenses are now up to speed and have been since the Giants game. This is why we have seen Grossman's play get worst from game to game.

I am going to attempt to spin this into a positive. I believe two players who hopefully will receive significant playing time in next week's game will help to open the playbook up, thus making us a more explosive offense.

Jon Beck- He has more physical ability than Rex Grossman (does not mean he is better, but hopefully he will be). This offense needs a guy who can extend some plays with his legs, throw the ball deep, make the outside throws, run the bootleg and avoid the costly mistakes. His talents can help to elevate the play of the mediocre supporting cast.

--Not saying he is going to do these things but as a fan I hope he does.

Anthony Armstrong- He is the one guy on the team who consistently take the top off of defenses. The offense the past few weeks has sorely missed his speed. His skill set helps Moss, Jabar, Davis and Cooley work the underneath stuff. Teams must account for Armstrong's speed and that right there is enough for me to say his return will make a big impact.

--Not implying he's all pro but is a vital piece to the overall offense

Lets all keep our fingers crossed these two guys can help the Skins' sputtering offense and infuse some life into it. Also, making Kyle Shannahan a much happier coordinator with more tools at his disposal.

Go Skins!

Wasn't Grossman Kyle's pick to be the quarterback last year, and I remeber a lot of people on this board was saying the offense is so much better with Grossman, and to be honest it wasn't. It was the same ole same ole. Rex isn't any good, and Kyle isn't either.

[Aghar]

You catch their play calling on a CB radio? Let me know, I would love to know how many of the same plays were called.

How do we know a lot of these "bad plays" were because of audibles? What about if Grossman didn't take the shot down field on those interceptions, and hit the short-to-intermediate route instead? Would we be saying great plays?

We don't hear the plays called, we don't watch the gametape, so it's a bit ignorant to blame the play calling, right? If Peyton Manning was our QB, would all of a sudden the play calling be awesome?

I think the play calling worked well for Matt Schaub in Houston for a few years.

Start blaming the QB, as default, for making bad decisions.

I'm sorry but I won't give Kyle a pass anymore. This is no knee-jerk reaction. It has been stated before his inability to call run plays when you clearly need to run the clock out(in past games). Granted, I am not going to stand here and say he is not hamstrung by poor QB play. However, I am fairly certain that going into the game Philly had the WORST run defense in football, or close to it, right? So when we run on 1st and 10, 2nd and 5 and then have a 3rd and 2, why do we pass? There was no audible. We would have seen Rex checking off. Instead we got that exact thing at least on 3 drives, including the first drive of the second half when we had another opportunity to score a TD, yet we, run, run and have 3rd and short and try to pass and our ineffective QB throws it into the stands because no WR is open. That's a bad play call. I'm not one of those fans that will say I can call a better game, clearly I could not. But that won't stop me from questioning why our OC continues to throw the ball against a team that struggles against the run. On top of the fact that this is not the first time I have questioned his calls. I did the same during the games we had a lead and he refused to run, threw, and put our defense in a position that they had to hold in order to win the game.

As for Matt Schaub and the Texans comment you made. How many playoff games did they play in while he was there? How many times were those stats inflated because Houston couldn't stop anyone so every single game was a shootout? This isn't Houston. We have a defense that will hold teams to 20 or so pts again. You need to run the football. Commit to the run, not the pass, especially when the weakest link is throwing the football!

[mi6]

The bottom line is that Kyle has been calling a very very safe and predictable game. The dump off game is not what top-flight NFL offenses do. They go vertical ... and, we do have talent to stretch the field. Unfortunately, to protect Rexy from fumbling when he gets touched ... it's max protect most of the time.

Time to let the young WRs to take the field. Terrance Austin has speed. Niles and Leonard have speed, hands, and size. Surprised we don't have plays for them in the Red Zone, where we have struggled immensely.

How many 40+, and 30+ yards passing plays do we have? Precisely.

[wit33]

Do not fear Beck and Armstrong will provide the spark this offense so desperately needs. I cannot wait to finally see some bootlegs, moving of the pocket, fear of the deep ball from opposing defenses and this will all happen with these two guys being inserted into the lineup.

Kyle is forced to mix things up in different situations such as: third and shorts and 4 min offense because the Skins are not yet dominate/talented enough to lean on one thing (pass or run). With this in mind... I do not get too flustered when we pass in these situations at times.

------I must admit that I am a huge fan of Kyle's offense and aggressive approach. I really hope Beck allows him to really spread his wings offensively and allow us to really see the capabilities of this offense.

*Fingers Crossed* But I do have confidence!

[grego]

As for Matt Schaub and the Texans comment you made. How many playoff games did they play in while he was there? How many times were those stats inflated because Houston couldn't stop anyone so every single game was a shootout? This isn't Houston. We have a defense that will hold teams to 20 or so pts again. You need to run the football. Commit to the run, not the pass, especially when the weakest link is throwing the football!

you are taking the words out of my mouth. why more fans arent seeing this and questioning this is something i dont understand.

[chipwhich]

I have been saying it all along.

We have 7 wide receivers on the roster, and not 1 has shown they are a number 1 receiver. If your only go to in the passing game is a tight end, well there might be struggles.

[Skins Wingman]

had we had a competent qb to hit gaffney and stallworth who were wide open deep, nobody is questioning kyles playcalling. its not his fault his qb cant throw. and stallworth dropped that pass too. the players need to execute. i would say its 80% players and 20% playcalling.

[WSHRedskins3ATLBraves3]

When you have no respectable passing game, it's hard to run the ball.

Kyle is in a tough situation.

[ThomasRoane]

His QB is ****.

You can tailor a nice suit and put a turd in it, and it is still a sharp dressed piece of crap.

I'd hate to say this, but the fact is when you see the limited number of reads Rex has been allowed, that IS tailoring the offense to his talent... or more aptly, tailoring it to stay away from his deficiencies.

~Bang

I think Kyle is a gutsy play caller. I judge a play caller by his ability to be creative and get out of a bad situation. That call from his own 1 yard line where he got the ball to Fred Davis and a first down was a thing of beauty! The problem is that he can't be himself with Rex. He almost has to call the game scared. Because there aren't many things Rex can do well. Rex can only attack the outside of the field with play action. Even before the O-line got banged up there was precious little running room with Philly's 8 man front. I've coached for many, many years and we've won a lot of championships with a strong power game. But we've always had receivers who could beat their man and a QB who could get them to ball to make teams pay when they go all in to stop the run.

The Redskins are still a draft (or two) away from being competitive week to week. The defense is coming along very nicely. There's a HUGE improvement over last year! Four turn overs and we still only lose by a TD?!?! Good sign of things to come. Now let's be patient and let them build the other side of the ball. Starting with a QB, O-Line and maybe develop Hankerson. They MUST have a big kid can go up and make a play over smaller defenders. We still don't have that. I'd like to see the staff commit to Hank and see what he's got. So they'll know if they need to draft that big guy next year or not.

[SWFLSkins]

I like Kyle and I think people are just reacting emotionally to losses. Not only do we have a black hole at QB, but our WR corps is one of the worst/least talented in the league.

And I'm not sure what people want him to do when a team is completely stuffing the run against us like the Eagles did yesterday. On second and 12, he is probably doing whatever he can to avoid third an long with Rex, so he calls a pass play before it's an obvious passing situation.

He has zero weapons to work with. Literally zero. Going into this game the Redskins were actually one of thenmote balanced run/pass teams in the league.

"Tailor" his playcalling to his personell?

Is there a playbook out there called "Really good plays to call when you have a really bad quarterback and no receivers"?

Disagree with the receivers part in part. Why you may ask, well Anthony Armstrong has been out, IMO he is the best field stretcher the team has. Secondly I would like to see Niles Paul and Leonard Hankerson get some of those jump balls in the end zone and not short guys. BTW, the ball to Davis was underthrown and I disagree with the OP on Davis not being able to get down the field. I do think most of this perception of Kyle and the wide receivers is because of QB and OL line. OL play makes Kyle leary to run the ball in obvious running situations. And sadly I don't know for sure if Beck changes any of this.

[theTruthTeller]

Wasn't Grossman Kyle's pick to be the quarterback last year, and I remeber a lot of people on this board was saying the offense is so much better with Grossman, and to be honest it wasn't. It was the same ole same ole. Rex isn't any good, and Kyle isn't either.

Kyle coached Grossman in Houston and brought him here. God knows who decided Beck had a future. I don't have a lot of sympathy - anyone with a passing interest in football knew before the season started that the most important position on the team would be put in the hands of a 3rd string QB.

[SWFLSkins]

I have been saying it all along.

We have 7 wide receivers on the roster, and not 1 has shown they are a number 1 receiver. If your only go to in the passing game is a tight end, well there might be struggles.

Most of which only three are getting looks. TE is the leading the team in receptions, sadly.

---------- Post added October-18th-2011 at 09:26 AM ----------

I think you've seen the last of that.

figure it this way.

It's crunch time, and you're the defensive coordinator.. . do you

A/ sell out on the run and dare Rex to beat you?

B/ Worry about Rex and leave possible running lanes?

(It's A)

~Bang

And the offense has been called as such.

[Bobbyst21]

he happened to be placed in a system with a very good qb and a beast wr, and that doesn't qualify for being a good OC, only qualifies for being in the right place at the right time.

Daddy needs to open his eyes before this gets ugly...

Daddy will never fire his son. If Kyle is indeed the problem, then we are stuck with him. Mike is a very good coach and has been around,seen a lot, knows what a good offense is supposed to look like. Maybe a meeting of the minds is in order.

[skins island connection]

Daddy will never fire his son. If Kyle is indeed the problem, then we are stuck with him. Mike is a very good coach and has been around,seen a lot, knows what a good offense is supposed to look like. Maybe a meeting of the minds is in order.

True..so very true. I am sure Mike will never actually fire his son, and I wouldn't expect it. I know Kyle is young, and the good thing about that is he is workable; he will catch on and be good eventually.

The only issue with him is his interest in Rex. Like I said, Kyle is workable, but Rex is done; he proved that in Chicago years ago. Maybe its a case of playing the "who sucks less" qb, but I think the viewpoint on that ecision has changed. Its time for Rex to sit and let Beck, or go out and get someone else, even if it means opening Danny's wallet, which we have been so accustomed to.

I'm not sure if I'm blaming Kyle more for not being able to utilize his playbook more due to the lousy qb, or still having faith in Rex, which pretty much shows he's the ONLY one who does...

[RAAZ227]

Having Armstrong back will help. I hope he plays this week.