Why John Beck is Likely to Win the Job

[Oldfan]

Good article from Keim on the 2 QB's very balanced, I don't agree with all of that, but he does the good and bad of both Qbs

http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/nfl/2011/09/ten-thoughts-beck-vs-grossman

The article is balanced, but omits scheme fit as a factor. For example, he concludes: It could come down to this: if your goal is to beat the Giants, go with Grossman (because of experience). If I'm the OC, I'm weighing Grossman's experience, but I'm also imagining him in the pocket as a target for the Giants' pass rush. But, as I pointed out in the OP, I can imagine putting Beck on the move often, making the O-line's job much easier.

[MartinC]

The article is balanced, but omits scheme fit as a factor. For example, he concludes: It could come down to this: if your goal is to beat the Giants, go with Grossman (because of experience). If I'm the OC, I'm weighing Grossman's experience, but I'm also imagining him in the pocket as a target for the Giants' pass rush. But, as I pointed out in the OP, I can imagine putting Beck on the move often, making the O-line's job much easier.

If Beck starts and I'm the DC I scheme to keep him in the pocket and make him beat you standing still. I also blitz him early to test him and stop him getting into a rythym.

If Rex gets the start I scheme to make him move and throw while moving. I also try to take away the throws inside the numbers and make him throw to the outside and I'm more selective with when I blitz him.

[Oldfan]

If Beck starts and I'm the DC I scheme to keep him in the pocket and make him beat you standing still. I also blitz him early to test him and stop him getting into a rythym..

If you scheme to keep him in the pocket, you have made it less likely that you will get to him with sacks. Besides, it's hard to keep the QB in the pocket when you have to defend the run and the Shanahan scheme includes so many action passes.

[MartinC]

If you scheme to keep him in the pocket, you have made it less likely that you will get to him with sacks. Besides, it's hard to keep the QB in the pocket when you have to defend the run and the Shanahan scheme includes so many action passes.

I was an offense guy not defense but I think with Beck I would bring inside pressure and have my ends not crash inside to give him room to get outside. Your right that might reduce my pass rush a little but I would want to see him beat from the pocket before I started to adjust in that regard.

Against the run and run action I'd have my backside linebacker contain not crash down - that's one of the benefits Beck may give you over Rex of course. Holding that backside defender opens up some cutback lanes for our running game.

[Oldfan]

I was an offense guy not defense but I think with Beck I would bring inside pressure and have my ends not crash inside to give him room to get outside. Your right that might reduce my pass rush a little but I would want to see him beat from the pocket before I started to adjust in that regard.

Against the run and run action I'd have my backside linebacker contain not crash down - that's one of the benefits Beck may give you over Rex of course. Holding that backside defender opens up some cutback lanes for our running game.

I think you have it about right. Would you agree that Beck would be tougher to defend?

[huskerbear]

Mike Shanahan looking for a game manager as his QB is as likely as Lady Gaga shopping for a nice black dress to wear to dinner.

Which is why Grossman is, and always has been his choice to start this season.

[MartinC]

I think you have it about right. Would you agree that Beck would be tougher to defend?

Becks extra mobility certainly gives a defense more to think about. At this moment I would say Rex is harder to defend throwing from the pocket and is probably the more dangerous QB to play against but if Beck plays and develops his consistency from the pocket (which I think he would) then he becomes a more complete QB than Rex.

[JerseyGator]

The so-called media analysts and friends so often have a doulbe standard in evaluating QBs. I heard of at least two "almost" interceptions by Rex this preseason that are now on youtube as part of generally positive videos lately. One of these "almosts" would have required a diving one-handed reception IMO, the other would have required someone who is at least 10 feat tall. Yet another so-called bad throw was made while getting hit on a sack, a throw which I saw Brunell frequently make back in the day.

And that so-called bad throw by Rex on the TD pass to Santanta in the Ravens game just gave Moss ample opportunity to catch the ball, unlike the better throw two players earlier which a defender made a stellar play to strip Moss in the end zone.

The Rex hate by the media is just insane.

[tiger187126]

The so-called media analysts and friends so often have a doulbe standard in evaluating QBs. I heard of at least two "almost" interceptions by Rex this preseason that are now on youtube as part of generally positive videos lately. One of these "almosts" would have required a diving one-handed reception IMO, the other would have required someone who is at least 10 feat tall. Yet another so-called bad throw was made while getting hit on a sack, a throw which I saw Brunell frequently make back in the day.

And that so-called bad throw by Rex on the TD pass to Santanta in the Ravens game just gave Moss ample opportunity to catch the ball, unlike the better throw two players earlier which a defender made a stellar play to strip Moss in the end zone.

The Rex hate by the media is just insane.

rex's first throw to moss in the endzone was an awesome pass, he was just too well covered.

the second throw? come on now, that was blown coverage. he could have thrown that ball in a 3 yard diameter of moss and it still would have been 6. a division 2 backup can throw with no pressure and blown coverage.

[Oldfan]

Becks extra mobility certainly gives a defense more to think about. At this moment I would say Rex is harder to defend throwing from the pocket and is probably the more dangerous QB to play against but if Beck plays and develops his consistency from the pocket (which I think he would) then he becomes a more complete QB than Rex.

Rex seems to carve up defenses up the middle, but how hard can it be to swing a LB in as the Colts did and make him pay for that? He seems to have a problem throwing to either side. Even a little swing pass is an adventure.

He's deadly accurate up the middle, but that's not enough to work with, IMO.

I do agree that Beck still has a lot to prove.

[Destino]

The article is balanced, but omits scheme fit as a factor. For example, he concludes: It could come down to this: if your goal is to beat the Giants, go with Grossman (because of experience). If I'm the OC, I'm weighing Grossman's experience, but I'm also imagining him in the pocket as a target for the Giants' pass rush. But, as I pointed out in the OP, I can imagine putting Beck on the move often, making the O-line's job much easier.

Grossman is better under pressure than Beck and frankly it's not even close. Beck's biggest weakness IMO is his inability to handle pressure. You have more options to move the pocket with Beck but he's not Vick and once the defense gets wise they'll put an end to it. If Beck succeeds he'll do so by thriving in the pocket and handling pressure. He's not there right now and I think he makes the OLine look much worse when he's on the field.

[SlkyCaramel]

Grossman is better under pressure than Beck and frankly it's not even close. Beck's biggest weakness IMO is his inability to handle pressure. You have more options to move the pocket with Beck but he's not Vick and once the defense gets wise they'll put an end to it. If Beck succeeds he'll do so by thriving in the pocket and handling pressure. He's not there right now and I think he makes the OLine look much worse when he's on the field.

The Oline looked fine everytime he was in the game up until the Bucs game, and there they just played like crap, let's be honest.

[Oldfan]

Grossman is better under pressure than Beck and frankly it's not even close. Beck's biggest weakness IMO is his inability to handle pressure. You have more options to move the pocket with Beck but he's not Vick and once the defense gets wise they'll put an end to it. If Beck succeeds he'll do so by thriving in the pocket and handling pressure. He's not there right now and I think he makes the OLine look much worse when he's on the field.

No offense, but I turn a deaf ear when people offer their opinions on QB intangibles, like his reaction to pressure. That's something that can only be discerned with lots of evidence. We don't have enough evidence on John Beck yet.

The Good Rex, Bad Rex reputation indicates that Rex hasn't handled pressure well in the past. Maybe he has changed his stripes, but we don't have enough evidence to support that either.

[darrelgreenie]

Becks extra mobility certainly gives a defense more to think about. At this moment I would say Rex is harder to defend throwing from the pocket and is probably the more dangerous QB to play against but if Beck plays and develops his consistency from the pocket (which I think he would) then he becomes a more complete QB than Rex.

I don't see much difference between the 2 from the pocket or at least not to any extent that Beck can't make up with his superior ability outside the pocket (boot-action, sprint/dash etc).

The only difference is experience: how open/willing is Mike to tolerate the mistakes an inexperienced QB will make while on OJT?

[Destino]

The Oline looked fine everytime he was in the game up until the Bucs game, and there they just played like crap, let's be honest.

More than a few people called out the OLine after the Colts game in which Beck was sacked 3 times. In fact the two games in which he played significant time in the 1st half protection has seemed worse. The Colts and the Bucs. Against the Ravens I believe he threw three passes in the first half.

[illone]

Still think he gets the nod, Oldie?

Sticking with Grossman here. And the rest of us don't need tons of evidence to discern intangibles, OF. Just because you do doesn't mean the rest of us do.

[Oldfan]

Still think he gets the nod, Oldie?

Sticking with Grossman here. And the rest of us don't need tons of evidence to discern intangibles, OF. Just because you do doesn't mean the rest of us do.

I have seen no reason to change my mind. The doubt I had about Beck's game was the accuracy on his deep game. He hasn't erased those doubts. On the other hand, even without a great deep game, he's more of a threat to defenses than Rex.

[Destino]

I have seen no reason to change my mind. The doubt I had about Beck's game was the accuracy on his deep game. He hasn't erased those doubts. On the other hand, even without a great deep game, he's more of a threat to defenses than Rex.

If Shanahan thinks he could be the QB of the future the job is his. The bottom line is this, Rex started 3 games last season and turned the ball over 7 times (4 picks and 3 lost fumbles). That doesn't include his brief appearance against the lions. Rex has been in the league and Kyle knows him and his game well. If they think Beck has the stuff to be the answer in DC then letting him learn during the regular season is a no brainer. The stats are close enough that they can be thrown out in favor of upside easily.

[Oldfan]

If Shanahan thinks he could be the QB of the future the job is his. The bottom line is this, Rex started 3 games last season and turned the ball over 7 times (4 picks and 3 lost fumbles). That doesn't include his brief appearance against the lions. Rex has been in the league and Kyle knows him and his game well. If they think Beck has the stuff to be the answer in DC then letting him learn during the regular season is a no brainer. The stats are close enough that they can be thrown out in favor of upside easily.

Right. And, once again, Mike and Kyle aren't going to look at stats at all. They are going to go by their grades which may tell a completely different story. If those grades are close, the job has to go to Beck because of the higher upside.

[HailGreen28]

If Shanahan thinks he could be the QB of the future the job is his. The bottom line is this, Rex started 3 games last season and turned the ball over 7 times (4 picks and 3 lost fumbles). That doesn't include his brief appearance against the lions. Rex has been in the league and Kyle knows him and his game well. If they think Beck has the stuff to be the answer in DC then letting him learn during the regular season is a no brainer. The stats are close enough that they can be thrown out in favor of upside easily.

What kind of "upside" is there for Beck, though?

I can see playing time, more practice with starters. But Rex could benefit from that this season too.

[Destino]

Right. And, once again, Mike and Kyle aren't going to look at stats at all. They are going to go by their grades which may tell a completely different story. If those grades are close, the job has to go to Beck because of the higher upside.

I'm not sure more upside is enough to justify taking a risk on Beck. My thoughts are that if Shanahan thinks that Beck can be a QB that leads a team to the playoffs (eventually) and owns the job for years does it make sense to put in an inexperienced player as the starter. If this is about who is better while the coaches think they need to find a QB next season then Rex makes far more sense. If they don't feel they have their future QB then this season is simply about improving on last season and I think Rex's experience gives him the edge.

[Oldfan]

I'm not sure more upside is enough to justify taking a risk on Beck. My thoughts are that if Shanahan thinks that Beck can be a QB that leads a team to the playoffs (eventually) and owns the job for years does it make sense to put in an inexperienced player as the starter. If this is about who is better while the coaches think they need to find a QB next season then Rex makes far more sense. If they don't feel they have their future QB then this season is simply about improving on last season and I think Rex's experience gives him the edge.

Well, now we seem to be trying to cut this pretty fine. How would anyone, including the Shanahans, know how high Beck's upside was until he's tested in regular season games?

If Rex is merely pegged as a stop gap, Beck could fill that role too even if his upside disappoints.

[Destino]

Well, now we seem to be trying to cut this pretty fine. How would anyone, including the Shanahans, know how high Beck's upside was until he's tested in regular season games?

If Rex is merely pegged as a stop gap, Beck could fill that role too even if his upside disappoints.

Campbell had better numbers than McNabb last season. McNabb cost a lot to get here and is gone. Beck was the other Shanahan pick and if he starts and fails badly then people are going to start looking at the head coach with justifiable doubt. I think his credibility takes a hit with fans and with the fan that happens to own the team at that point. Going with Grossman over Beck, on the other hand, is business as usual in the NFL. Unless a QB is an early pick it's expected that they will get their shot when the more experienced player fails miserably or gets injured.

If he goes with Beck he needs to believe Beck can provide a decent season and develop into a true NFL starting caliber QB. He can't know it but he should at least believe it in order for the risk to be justifiable.

[terryb101]

.

In other threads I claimed that John Beck would be a better fit than Rex Grossman for the Shanahan scheme. Here, I will elaborate on the reasoning to support that claim.

The concept known as zone blocking had been around for a long time before Alex Gibbs built an entire running game based on it. Its signature running play has been the Zone Stretch. Like Lombardi’s Green Bay Sweep, it is the play that, when well executed, is hard to stop even when the defense knows it’s coming.

The boot-action off a well-run Zone Stretch gives defenses fits the way play-action did for Bart Starr off Lombardi’s Sweep. The difference is that Bart Starr didn’t have to be the mobile, athletic-type QB who could throw on the move like John Elway, Jake Plummer or Jay Cutler. When the Shanahan offense is run by a QB with limited mobility, like a Matt Schaub type, it can’t be run at its full potential.

One of the drawbacks of the ZBS is that the more athletic O-linemen it requires are usually smaller and not as good in pass protection as their beefier power-blocking counterparts. That disadvantage can be negated by moving the QB and making his setup location less predictable than that of the dropback pocket passer.

SMcQ and I had a discussion in another thread. We figured out that Ryan Clady’s 2008 rookie season was overrated when he was charged with just 1.5 sacks. Clady was near the NFL top in QB pressures allowed that season. His reputation has gone a little South since then. The difference is that in 2008 Clady was part of a unit that allowed an NFL low 12 sacks for the entire year because Mike Shanahan had the very mobile Jay Cutler on the move. The pass protection scheme made that line look better than it really was.

[edit] Grossman has an edge in experience, but Beck can match that rather quickly if he's given the starting job. But, Grossman will never match Beck's edge in athleticism, mobility and scheme fit.

The bottom line: An athletic, mobile QB in the Shanahan offense permits the offense to be run at its full potential and makes the O-line’s pass protection job easier. That’s why John Beck is a better fit for the Shanahan offense than Rex Grossman and why he’s likely to win the job.

with all that said, the real reason is because grossman is for the most part a backup journeyman

[Oldfan]

...If he goes with Beck he needs to believe Beck can provide a decent season and develop into a true NFL starting caliber QB. He can't know it but he should at least believe it in order for the risk to be justifiable.

Earlier in this thread, Skinsinparadise provided the quotes. Shanahan says he doesn't just think that Beck has the athletic talent to be an NFL starting QB, he knows it.

What he doesn't know is how well Beck will react to the bright lights.