WhoRUSupposed2Be Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Son, you were still in diapers when I joined ES, no welcome needed. Carriker and Bryant, to me, are solid depth on the 3-4 but I would want others as starters. Carriker is maybe borderline as a 3-4 end, he played better down the stretch but ideally he's depth. I would imagine he will be the starter next season, however, as there's just to many other pieces needed to worry about his spot yet. Bulldog is right, though, we need at minimum a starting NT, OLB, ILB to make this thing serviceable next year. I still say they did it the right way. Look, this is not a team that was anywhere near ready to compete when Shanahan took over. I have no problem with growing pains, I have no problem with it costing us a few games here and there. To me, the reason they didn't add players is because this year was always about finding out what we had and cleaning up the books (despite what the marketing department might have told us to sell tickets). This is a big offseason, double class of free agents, still have a good number of picks and have some tradeable assets. I'm witholding a certain amount of judgement until I see what happens this offseason and much of that may be put off a year depending on how the CBA works out. If the CBA doesn't get done until near training camp or later, it's going to be hard to get much accomplished this year. Not to mention, we can't any players until that happens. This solution sounds like the logical thing for us to do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitman21ST Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Son, you were still in diapers when I joined ES, no welcome needed. You're a year older than me...does that mean you were in diapers too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss_Hogg Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 some of the top defenses in this league come from the 3-4: Green Bay NY Jets Pittsburgh Baltimore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitman21ST Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 some of the top defenses in this league come from the 3-4:Green Bay NY Jets Pittsburgh Baltimore Some of the worst defenses have, too Washington Dallas San Fran just sayin' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Full Monty Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 And last year (Saints v Indy) was two 4-3s against each other, good sir. It's interesting but doesn't say much about the state of the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soup Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 We should just go a step further and plug the 3-3-5 that Michigan runs. On a serious note, I can't wait for the 3-4 to get rolling here in D.C. I just hope they have some continuity and not fire the coaching staff or change philosophies. Its going to take a couple of seasons to get a turnover in the players to a 3-4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlayAction Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Carriker and Bryant, to me, are solid depth on the 3-4 but I would want others as starters. Carriker is maybe borderline as a 3-4 end, he played better down the stretch but ideally he's depth. I would imagine he will be the starter next season, however, as there's just to many other pieces needed to worry about his spot yet. Bulldog is right, though, we need at minimum a starting NT, OLB, ILB to make this thing serviceable next year. I still say they did it the right way. To me, the reason they didn't add players is because this year was always about finding out what we had and cleaning up the books (despite what the marketing department might have told us to sell tickets). This is a big offseason, double class of free agents, still have a good number of picks and have some tradeable assets. I would argue that Orakpo is better suited toward RDE in the 4:3 than OLB in the 3-4 (he can play well in the 3-4 but would have been stellar as a full time DE in the 4-3). Fletcher is the iron man on the team but is so old that no GM would consider building anything around him. So, if Carriker and Bryant are good depth players for the 3-4 then the Skins really have no starters ideally suited to the 3-4 in their front 7. That's not going to be fixed quickly. The argument for not changing was simply that a 4-3 with the players to execute it is a far better defense than a 3-4 without the players capable of running it effectively. The Skins could have devoted most of their resources to fixing the offense that has struggled ever since Norv Turner left town. Eventually, with an offense that could carry the defense the Skins could begin picking up players for the 3-4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Full Monty Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 No, what I think some of us are saying is that if you don't have the personnel maybe you need to TRANSITION an offense or defense to a scheme over a couple of seasons.Also, when free agents like Larry Foote and others that were experienced in the 3-4 became available the Redskins chose not to sign them and go with players who were being asked to play out of position like Andre Carter and Lorenzo Alexander. And NONE of the players that were asked to play out of position in 2010 played well enough to be considered part of the solution going forward. Right now you are still looking at a front seven for the 3-4 that needs 5 players. Brian Orakpo and London Fletcher to me are the only sure things for 2011. I agree that everything's tenuous... BUT.. I did like what I saw out of Perry Riley and Rob Jackson. I think we bump Alexander back into spot duty on defense while being a hammer on special teams. Jackson and Orakpo on the outside. I predict we'll let Rocky walk, thus putting Perry Riley next to London in the middle. But the key is still the fact that we have no elite nose tackle. We desperately need one to make all this work and I believe we have to do it in the draft with our 1st rounder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bikie Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 the hope to pull out of this thread is that this is just the second year the packers have been running a 3-4 (and oh btw, they started the process by drafting a NT in the first round) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitman21ST Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 the hope to pull out of this thread is that this is just the second year the packers have been running a 3-4 (and oh btw, they started the process by drafting a NT in the first round) So what NT this year is of a B.J. Raji quality? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCsportsfan53 Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 You're a year older than me...does that mean you were in diapers too? Nah, I was on the front porch, sipping Jamison on the rocks and smokin a stogie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
War Paint Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Our main problem was the lack of players who fit the 3-4 scheme. That said, I don't want us to switch back to a 4-3. I'd rather acquire the players to fit the 3-4. Switching back to a 4-3 will help in the short term, but I think we're better off in the long run with a 3-4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyHolt Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 QB play > the great 3-4 4-3 debate. It's not even close. Over 5-1 in the last 6. Any old defense will do when you have an offense. As long as you don't try to make them something they are not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirClintonPortis Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 How about them Bears holding the loaded Packers O to 14 points? But the Bears D is better than our D. They didn't cough up 59 to Philly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitman21ST Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 How about them Bears holding the loaded Packers O to 14 points? But the Bears D is better than our D. They didn't cough up 59 to Philly. The loaded Packers O kept giving the ball away. They were nowhere near in sync yesterday, save for the first drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armada58 Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Great point. Here's the big difference. Each of the 3-4 Defenses in the playoffs has a beast at NT. With one exception of The Jets, but they have a crazy good secondary. So as valid as the OP is, it also points to what we need to do to fix our problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhead36 Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Over the last few years, the best Ds have mostly been 3-4s. Baltimore, Pittsburgh, NY Jets, and now you can lump Green Bay in there as well. Also the Patriots back when they were winning were a great 3-4 D. The NFL is a pass happy league now and it's all about being able to create turnovers and put pressure on the QB, and the 3-4 is the best way to do that. Doesn't mean the 4-3 is completely obsolete, at the end of the day players matter more than scheme and we need a lot more quality players no matter what scheme we choose to run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasRoane Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Once we plugged Bryant into the middle it's amazing how much better the defense performed in the last three games. They started to gain some traction and that was without probably our best player Laron Landry. Next to the Nose Guard I think the play making Safety is a huge part of the 3-4 scheme. Look at Pittsburgh without Troy. They're just not the same. I believe the Skins Defense is on the right track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GibbsFactor Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Once we plugged Bryant into the middle it's amazing how much better the defense performed in the last three games. They started to gain some traction and that was without probably our best player Laron Landry. Next to the Nose Guard I think the play making Safety is a huge part of the 3-4 scheme. Look at Pittsburgh without Troy. They're just not the same. I believe the Skins Defense is on the right track. Agreed, if Bryant can continue to get better, with Carriker, we need one more big bad DE (Haynesworth, would be ideal) and the defense will be okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Over the last few years, the best Ds have mostly been 3-4s. Baltimore, Pittsburgh, NY Jets, and now you can lump Green Bay in there as well. Also the Patriots back when they were winning were a great 3-4 D. The NFL is a pass happy league now and it's all about being able to create turnovers and put pressure on the QB, and the 3-4 is the best way to do that. Doesn't mean the 4-3 is completely obsolete, at the end of the day players matter more than scheme and we need a lot more quality players no matter what scheme we choose to run. Excellent post Warhead. I think you're right. I think it's also telling that most of the best defensive minds in the league run the 3-4 defense. And while you are correct that the personnel makes the biggest difference in the quality of the defense, that's a function of scheme in many ways. Good 3-4 personnel is just easier to acquire in the draft because more quality 3-4 LBs come out of college than 4-3 DEs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reaper 21 Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 love the 3-4 so many more turnovers this year than last, and at big times. Did they struggle yes, did they give up to many yards yes, but i still rather see a 3-4 than 4-3. We didn't give up many yards in the 4-3 but we did give up points late in games to lose them. We didn't as much this year cuz we didn't sit in a prevent like blatche. i am expecting good things next year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Mike Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Correlation does not imply causation. There are alot of variables at work to imply that the sole reason these teams made it is due to a defensive formation, without taking into account the GM, coaching, offense, special teams, personnel, injuries, home field advantage, and other factors into account is absurd.Nice try though Ignoring the fact that the Steelers, Jets, Ravens, Packers, and Patriots represent the number 1, 2, 3, 5 and 7 defenses in the league is REALLY absurd. Nice try though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 love the 3-4 so many more turnovers this year than last, and at big times. Did they struggle yes, did they give up to many yards yes, but i still rather see a 3-4 than 4-3. We didn't give up many yards in the 4-3 but we did give up points late in games to lose them. We didn't as much this year cuz we didn't sit in a prevent like blatche. i am expecting good things next year This is revisionist history. 2010: -6228 yards allowed (389.25 ypg) -377 points allowed (23.56 ppg) -27 turnovers -Allowed 5.0 points in the 4th quarter. I threw out the Eagles game, because they allowed 0 in the 4th quarter and 59 in the first three. That's a lame duck 4th quarter performance seeing how Philly took their foot off the gas 100%. -6 fourth quarter shut outs -14 games (including Philly) allowing under 10 points in the 4th quarter -10 games (including Philly) allowing under 5 points in the 4th quarter -1 game allowing over 20 points in 4th. 2009: -5115 yards (319.68 ypg) -336 points allowed (21 ppg) -17 turnovers -Allowed 5.56 points per game in the 4th quarter -4 fourth quarter shut outs -13 games allowing under 10 points in 4th -6 games allowing under 5 points in 4th -0 games allowing over 20 points in 4th Conclusion: While the 2009 defense allowed slightly more points per game in the 4th quarter (half a point), they also allowed 2 less points per game. In both cases, the offenses often left the defense out to dry. There is no way you can look at the defense and say it was better. It was worse in most statistical categories. Looking at the 4th quarter only gives you false hope for a defense. Ignoring the fact that the Steelers, Jets, Ravens, Packers, and Patriots represent the number 1, 2, 3, 5 and 7 defenses in the league is REALLY absurd. Nice try though. It's also worth noting that all of those teams had the personnel in place to make the switch. We don't. We have 4-3 personnel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Always A Commander Never A Captain Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 We should just go a step further and plug the 3-3-5 that Michigan runs. Well honestly. That's what the Packers run. The Packers don't run a 3-4. They run a 3-3-5. Instead of a 4th linebacker, they have Woodson. The defensive coach for the Packers, Dom Capers, says so himself that his standard defense that he'll pit against any offense in the league, is the nickel. So if he runs the nickel 90% of the time...it's a 3-3-5 defense and not a 3-4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GibbsFactor Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Don't the Jets run more of a 46? Just saying... Coincidentally, that's what the Boys will be running next year too. Also, forget yards, it's points allowed and turnover margin that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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