Enter Apotheosis Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 To clarify, Hubbs, I'm not biased against the 3-4, what do I have a problem with is the defensive coordinator Shanahan chose to implement it. Haslett may be a guy players have a good relationship with, but he has never coached an elite defense on a consistent basis ever in his life. Whether he had the personnel for it or not in the 4-3, 3-4, the guy is mediocre. I'm afraid that even when our personnel fits the scheme, we'll still be middle of the pack at best because Shanahan trusted the keys to the D to a guy who fields bottom half defensive units year in, year out. One of the interesting but not often discussed aspects of Haslett's coaching career is that the teams he has been involved with as a coordinator or head man overwhelmingly had poor, wildly inconsistent, and/or deteriorating talent on the offensive side of the ball. This is pretty obvious when you recall his stints in St. Louis and New Orleans... but even the Steelers under Cowher were undergoing a major offensive slump when Haslett was in charge of the defense. That may not mean much of anything but it would be kind of interesting if that played in to the results he was achieving. I would imagine the rather weak front offices of the Rams and Saints didn't help much, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlayAction Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 One of the interesting but not often discussed aspects of Haslett's coaching career is that the teams he has been involved with as a coordinator or head man overwhelmingly had poor, wildly inconsistent, and/or deteriorating talent on the offensive side of the ball. This is pretty obvious when you recall his stints in St. Louis and New Orleans... but even the Steelers under Cowher were undergoing a major offensive slump when Haslett was in charge of the defensive side of the ball. That may not mean much of anything but it would be kind of interesting if that played in to the results he was achieving on defense. I would imagine the rather weak front offices of the Rams and Saints didn't help much, either. Way to put a damper on the offseason. I was hoping that after these initial mistakes we would eventually create a good defense. Based upon your comment we may eventually turn into the Shanahan Broncos (good offense but poor or inconsistent defense). I don't think that's going to cut it in the NFC East. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enter Apotheosis Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Way to put a damper on the offseason. I was hoping that after these initial mistakes we would eventually create a good defense. Based upon your comment we may eventually turn into the Shanahan Broncos (good offense but poor or inconsistent defense). I don't think that's going to cut it in the NFC East. I'm not entirely sure you got my point. As an example... Haslett actually did a very good job in Pittsburgh when you consider just how badly the team struggled offensively thanks to what I will refer to as the Kordell Stewart Effect (or KSE) from here on out. Just take a gander at the team's rankings during his time as coordinator: 1997 Steelers Record: 11-5 Yards: 6th Yards Allowed: 6th Points: 7th Points Allowed: 11th 1998 Steelers Record: 7-9 Yards: 25th Yards Allowed: 12th Points: 28th Points Allowed: 7th 1999 Steelers Record: 6-10 Yards: 22nd Yards Allowed: 11th Points: 17th Points Allowed: 12th The defense clearly dipped a bit in the rankings after his first season. This is somewhat of a trend with Haslett and something that has been harped on as a negative criticism of the man quite a bit here on ES. However, when you take the KSE into account and look at the offensive rankings of the Steelers over the same period it becomes a little bit harder to find clear fault with Haslett. His unit may have declined over two seasons but the decline is decidedly predictable when you factor in the sudden absence of offensive help and the play of a particularly ineffective, turnover-prone QB The funny thing is that a similar thing happened in New Orleans where defensive performance correlated loosely to offensive performance and yet another inconsistent, turnover-prone, mobile, black QB was at the heart of a number of offensive woes. The biggest discernible difference there is that Haslett had woefully inferior talent and front office support compared to what was available in Pittsburgh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Full Monty Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 I'm not entirely sure you got my point. As an example... Haslett actually did a very good job in Pittsburgh when you consider just how badly the team struggled offensively thanks to what I will refer to as the Kordell Stewart Effect (or KSE) from here on out. Just take a gander at the team's rankings during his time as coordinator:... The funny thing is that a similar thing happened in New Orleans where defensive performance correlated loosely to offensive performance and yet another inconsistent, turnover-prone, mobile, black QB was at the heart of a number of offensive woes. The biggest discernible difference there is that Haslett had woefully inferior talent and front office support compared to what was available in Pittsburgh. And I refuse to absolve Jim Haslett of more than a decade of mediocre to poor defensive performances. You seem to be pushing a kind of "victim of circumstance" thing with this guy and although you often have terrific points, I'm just not buying on this one. There's a reason Shanahan plucked this guy from out of the NFL when he came back to coaching, he is mediocre at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enter Apotheosis Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 And I refuse to absolve Jim Haslett of more than a decade of mediocre to poor defensive performances. You seem to be pushing a kind of "victim of circumstance" thing with this guy and although you often have terrific points, I'm just not buying on this one. There's a reason Shanahan plucked this guy from out of the NFL when he came back to coaching, he is mediocre at best. I'm not particularly confident that Haslett's the right guy for the job or even that Shanahan has any idea who the right guy for the job would be, given their respective track records post-90s. I'm simply pointing out that things may not be as cut-and-dry as folks typically like to believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkstarr Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Way to put a damper on the offseason. I was hoping that after these initial mistakes we would eventually create a good defense. Based upon your comment we may eventually turn into the Shanahan Broncos (good offense but poor or inconsistent defense). I don't think that's going to cut it in the NFC East. U act like the NFC east is something special. This division is by far averge at best. Those that think the nfc east is something special is living in the past. they have 1 super bowl title in what the last decade? Who plays really good defense in this division? The giants? The nfc least is imo the weakest division in the nfc outside the west. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timmy Smith Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Every switch from a 4-3 to 3-4 takes several seasons. Everybody KNEW the Redskins defense was going to be bad this year. That wasn't hard to understand. The writing was on the wall as soon as Shanahan announced we'd be making the switch, and that he and Allen wanted to build this team the right way, from the ground up. We will be a little bit better next season, barring injuries. It don't think it will be until 2012 that we can expect to field a truly disruptive defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alwaysaskin Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 If we get the pieces in place for the 3-4 it can be a successful defense. IMO we need to take a long look at Pittsburgh. The Steelers' 3-4 thrives because of the athletic linebackers, we have a 3-4 backer in Orakpo, if none of the the QB's were available at #10, I would love to see an OLB taken. Hopefully we will be improved next year and begin building a dominant 3-4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CGSKINS Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 U act like the NFC east is something special. This division is by far averge at best. Those that think the nfc east is something special is living in the past. they have 1 super bowl title in what the last decade? Who plays really good defense in this division? The giants? The nfc least is imo the weakest division in the nfc outside the west.I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 You know who else runs the 3-4? San Francisco.49ers - Redskins in the NFCCG nex year' date=' right?[/quote'] Technically San Francisco runs a hybrid defense with lots of 4-3 fronts. They actually have a pretty good defense, your claim about the NFCCG next year might not be as outlandish as you think if they're able to acquire a veteran QB. Well, except for the part about us being in it too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirt Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 I'll buy it. As was said about Sanchez before their game, he did well against NE and IND because they had no pass rush, look at his games through the year. He had some of the worst numbers you could possibly have against a strong pass rush. A PASS RUSH-strong 3-4 has been the key to going far in the playoffs IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice_of_Reason Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 What people forget is that we have no idea how well this group of players would have continued to play in a 43. The defense the last couple of years was statistically ok, but couldn't dominate a game, and was just getting older. The thing is you don't make this change if you think you've just got to win immediately. And it doesnt take that long. Green bay switched 2 years ago. They werernt very good last year, but improved, and then they are much better this year. I just want to see the end of this movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokerPacker Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 What people forget is that we have no idea how well this group of players would have continued to play in a 43. The defense the last couple of years was statistically ok, but couldn't dominate a game, and was just getting older. The thing is you don't make this change if you think you've just got to win immediately. And it doesnt take that long. Green bay switched 2 years ago. They werernt very good last year, but improved, and then they are much better this year. I just want to see the end of this movie. I'd say we were pretty good last year until we lost our secondary (Al Harris, Pat Lee, and Brandon Underwood) to injury (and even then, only elite QBs took it to us). Finished 2nd in the league in yards against. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrelgreenie Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Those teams have innovative DC's that know how to make use of there personnel and they have better personnel to work with. There is no doubt in my mind that our same personnel coached by Capers or LeBeau would have been much better. Edit: I don't mean that as a knock against Haslett but he ain't Capers and LeBeau is a HOFer. I'm gonna go out on limb and guess that they probably would have played Albert at RDE and started Bryant at NT. And they would have created much better blitz packages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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