Why Do The Majority Of Redskins FO Moves NOT Pan Out?

[[S.S.F. | Nero]]

That's my question for debate.

Why Do The Majority Of Redskins FO Moves NOT Pan Out?

My opinion:

The Redskins (in the Snyder era at least) have a reputation -- whatever it may be....

The facts remain clear however. What the FO is doing is NOT working. The majority of draft picks and FA signings are NOT working out. And the talent that IS in the house, is senselessly squandered due to one of any number of different reasons ranging from owner meddling to lack of coaching talent (i.e. Zorn).

Teams such as the Colts, Chargers, Saints, Pats, Jets, Giants, Eagles don't seem to have this problem. Those teams always seem to get the best out of every player, yet the NATION'S team, just wastes the time and emotion of one of the most die-hard fan bases in all of professional sport.

It's sad really.

[Koolblue13]

Because Vinny and Danny ran it like a madden franchise for years and we developed the reputation for being where older players go to be over payed.

[gortiz]

no paradigm ... this team has no template, no mold, no identity.

we don't have our guys ...

the other reason is an absent FO ... vinny was not intuned with the culture of the team, witht he culture of the city ... the people the fans.

the same can be said about danny and the charging for mini camps, the expansion of fedex, the treatment of coles, the firing of herzog.

the team is faceless, in some respects souless, and rudderless.

[nightbird]

You're on the right track -- it's about reputation.

We've established a reputation as the place you go to get paid, not the place you go to win. I really believe it's that simple.

Snyder may -- MAY -- be taking steps to change this, but the fact is he planted these seeds 10 years ago and it will take a new pattern of good moves along with some luck before we shake our rep.

It's just obvious to me -- players look at Washington as the place where Redskins one scoops you up and brings you to where you can sign your second or third contract, with bigger bucks than anyone else is offering.

A couple years later, after making some money, having some laughs and losing plenty of games, you move on to a contender and play for cheap.

That's how I see it, and it's sickening.

[BrandonJ83]

I was thinking the same thing after watching the Bears game monday night. If we would have signed Peppers, he would have come here and sucked but for the Bears, he's playing as hard as he ever has.

[KDawg]

We sign guys based on how they perform in other systems, and we don't bother to look at how they'd fit in our system.

[gortiz]

Because Vinny and Danny ran it like a madden franchise for years and we developed the reputation for being where older players go to be over payed.

nothing to do with older players... look how dillon and moss shined in new england. look how seymour is playign in oakland, flozell in pittsburg, vanden bosch in detroit, jason taylor with the jets.

its cause we pick blindly out of hat and a lot of times pick round pegs for square holes.

---------- Post added December-22nd-2010 at 03:06 PM ----------

We sign guys based on how they perform in other systems, and we don't bother to look at how they'd fit in our system.

that is still not it in my opinion ... we have no system. by that I mean culture. sure we got technical system in offense and defense, but we have no way to say, "okay, this is our type of guy."

---------- Post added December-22nd-2010 at 03:10 PM ----------

I was thinking the same thing after watching the Bears game monday night. If we would have signed Peppers, he would have come here and sucked but for the Bears, he's playing as hard as he ever has.

probably right because we would have made him stand up and play OLB, or we would have not given him the freedom a freak like him deserves. see jason taylor.

this team is just flat out clueless, really.

i really think shanny will help that.

[Koolblue13]

I think everybody is pretty much on the same track for their answers. Unfortunately, there are a lot of reasons and most are correct.

I also think those days are gone for good. As painful as this year is, that is the only thing I really needed to see us do.

[The Tris]

that is still not it in my opinion ... we have no system. by that I mean culture. sure we got technical system in offense and defense, but we have no way to say, "okay, this is our type of guy.

Our technical systems of offense and defense have changed nearly every time we change the culture with a new coaching staff.

Which is why it is crazy that fans yet again want a coaching change.

[mojobo]

I think it has a lot to do with the fact that we haven't had good coordinator or line play on both sides of the ball. When we had Gregg Williams our free agent pickups looked pretty solid. He might not have had the best d-line but he was an amazing coordinator when he was here. Once Blache took over it seemed we were playing everyone out of position on purpose and didn't really have a good plan for them. On the offensive side its pretty difficult for any skill position player to be successful without a good offensive line, and we have had awful O-line play. I don't think we will ever see good QB or WR play until we address our interior line.

[Coach Janky Spanky]

The people making the Free Agent acquisitions (Danny and Vinny) did not understand football and did not understand that a player has to fit into the scheme of the team in order to be successful. When coaches and assistant coaches tried to tell them that, they did not listen and went ahead with the acquisition anyways. Somewhat relatedly, switching to a West Coast Offense by hiring Zorn was a huge mistake given how much we'd invested in Campbell, whose skills are much better suited to a vertical offense.

[KDawg]

Our technical systems of offense and defense have changed nearly every time we change the culture with a new coaching staff.

Which is why it is crazy that fans yet again want a coaching change.

Bingo. I think defensively we can still afford a switch because most of our guys fit either the 4-3 or 3-4... But whatever we decide to run this offseason is what we need to stick with for awhile, because we need to solidify the D. My guess is the 3-4, and that's fine... But now let's bring in guys that fit what we need. Not guys that excelled in other systems that don't have personnel traits we need.

Every coach knows the type of guys they need. We've signed guys based on name value... Jason Taylor being the biggest issue.

Haynesworth fit what we did in '09, but in 2010 he certainly didn't... And he didn't like the role we used him in in '09 anyways. So he's a bad example.

[Koolblue13]

The Coach rotation is a huge problem. That needs to change more than anything.

Heck, we accidentally hired a HC who didn't even know our team colors and gave him twice the time of what could be a future HoF HC. Wtf is that?!?

[oraphus]

We sign guys based on how they perform in other systems, and we don't bother to look at how they'd fit in our system.

That's exactly it.. we bring i players that did well in other systems and try to square peg them in to a round hole. I think the ex FO thought .. "hey.. if they can perform in a the other system they can perform in ours, they're play makers and will do well in any system" It was the epic fail of the owner that tried to run this team as a fantasy football franchise.

No real thought was given tot he character and attitude of the individuals. Hell Jason Taylor gave up a 9mil single year offer here, to go to a team where he made 1.5mil just not to play on this team. If that's not telling, i dont know what is.

[Bang]

The Coach rotation is a huge problem. That needs to change more than anything.

Heck, we accidentally hired a HC who didn't even know our team colors and gave him twice the time of what could be a future HoF HC. Wtf is that?!?

This.

The teams mentioned in the OP as successes.. Colts, Chargers, Saints, Pats, Jets, Giants, Eagles .. overwhelmingly they have had the same consitent philosophy in place for years. (except the Saints and Jets, and even the Jets set themselves up a few years ago with some strong offensive line drafts.) The second they set their sites on anybody, be it a free agent or a draft procpect, they know how they would like hm to fit in what they do, and they know that won't be changing any time soon. They're not experimenting like we are.

~Bang

[Burgold]

Part of it is the fantasy football approach, but an even bigger part of it is that we keep hiring different chefs. Are the ingredients needed by a Joe Gibbs the same ones wanted by a Jim Zorn or a Mike Shanahan? The fact that we keep shifting philosophies and paradigms really hurts us.

OTOH, this year we've gotten...

Armstrong

Banks

Trent Williams

Ryan Torrain

Keiland Williams

who've all worked out pretty welll... and then you have

Jamal Brown

Kory Litchensteiger

Adam Carricker

and a few other pieces who seem like they're okay. I think the biggest problem is that every two years, we keep having to re-invent this team from scratch. No continuity. No identity. No success.

[ADF]

I agree with Kdawg and gortiz.

The Redskins have a tendency of acquiring players and asking them to do things differently than what made them successful. In other words, they bring in players that don’t fit their system. You don’t sign Jeremiah Trotter to play in a read and react defense when he’s had success in a one gap defense his entire career. You don’t bring in Jason Taylor to replace Philip Daniels. If we needed a replacement for Andre Carter then the trade would have made sense but you can’t expect the guy to play Daniels’ role. You don’t sign Haynesworth to a record deal and use him differently than the Titans. What would be the point? We’re the ultimate square peg in a round hole team.

Portis is one of the few players we acquired that was able to change his game enough to have some success here. Portis would have had the same success he had in Denver if he ended up in Atlanta or somehow with the current staff in Houston.

[Horatio]

The main problem was signing big-name free agents for more money than they truly deserved, thereby removing much of their incentive to continue playing hard: "Why bust my butt? I'm already richer than I thought I would be, thanks to Mr. Snyder."

Relying on too many free agents, and not picks drafted by the team, is one reason why there are no "core Redskins values" on this team. Coaching changes don't help either.

But I think one of the BIGGEST reasons is that the big-name free agents who have come in here have had more clout with Snyder than the coaches have. Portis got to go in and whine to Snyder about Zorn, and didn't get disciplined for it...ZORN did!

You can't have the inmates running the asylum.

[airborneskins]

Its simple. The FO (and the fan base) have a "WIN NOW" mentality. Nobody wants to take the time to do what it takes to start over and rebuild from the bottom up (Hopefully this will change). Because of the reaction that the local media gets when they report something negative. there are ALOT of "knee jerk" reactions and people get fired / cut or just succumb to the pressure and retire,

[No_Pressure]

Someone else said it, our players aren't loyal Redskins. Sure, every team will have acquisitions from other teams to fill a few holes, but you do that after you've stocked the team with home grown talent.

How do you get loyal Redskins? You draft them for the most part. Sometimes a home grown player is one who didn't really get a fair shot until he came to D.C. like Antonio Pierce was, or Anthony Armstrong is. You need players who feel a close tie to the Redskins, who want to fight for the team that brought them into this league and gave them the opportunity to succeed. Look at our old superbowl teams. Darrell Green? Redskin for life. Art Monk? Redskin for life (until the last years of his career). Gary Clark? Redskin for life. The list goes on: Charles Mann, Russ Grimm, Joe Jacoby, Jeff Bostic, Monte Coleman, Dave Butz, Dexter Manley before he got too coked up and had to go to Tampa Bay, Joe Theismann...etc.

These were players who were either drafted and played the majority of their careers in Washington, or were picked up from another team early on and given their real start with the Redskins. These players fought their asses off for this team. Who do we have on our roster today that by my definition we can call home grown players? Lets see, remember these are all players who got their first real chance to play in Washington, or were drafted by the skins:

QB: None

RB: Ryan Torian, Keiland Williams

FB: Mike Sellers, James Davis

WR: Anthony Armstrong, Brandon Banks, Terrence Austin

TE: Chris Cooley, Fred Davis, Logan Paulson

T: Trent Williams, Stephon Heyer

G: Kory Lichtensteiger

C: None

DT: Kedric Golston, Jeremy Jarmon

NT: None

OLB: Lorenzo Alexander, Brian Orakpo, Chris Wilson

MLB: Rocky McIntosh, Perry Riley, H.B. Blades

CB: Kevin Barnes, Carlos Rogers

SS: LaRon Landry, Reed Doughty

FS: Kareem Moore, Chris Horton

K: Graham Gano

P: None

The funny thing about it is, a decent number of these players on offense were pickups since Shanahan has been here, and almost every single one of them has been a success in terms of what we expected out of them. Our home grown talent on defense leaves a lot to be desired in places but I would love to point out one thing:

Out of 8 starting positions between both of our lines, only 3 of them are filled with home grown talent. We have drafted so poorly on the lines it isn't funny, and our pickups are washed up starters from other teams.

A lot of this game is psychological. The players need to have some things in their brain which they aren't even necessarily conscious of most of the time. Until we stock our lines with home grown talent we won't be competitors. I expect that we will spend 3 draft choices in the next draft between the offensive and defensive lines.

[War Paint]

I think the main reason is we seem to build through FA and not the draft. Other teams build through the draft and sign a few FAs to plug holes. We do the opposite. I think when you build through the draft, not only do you have young talent, but you'll have a high amount of loyalty among the drafted players who truly identify themselves with the team that drafted them. They will have that fresh excitement when entering the NFL and be loyal. If you build a team like that, chances are you'll have a solid foundation, so when you sign a FA here and there, the FA will probably fit in better. When you do like we do and sign a ton of FAs and not build through the draft, chances are you'll have several of the FAs just wanting to collect a check. The team becomes more like a revolving door.

I look at it like this. A team that builds through the draft is like a town or city that is mostly made up of home town folk. Many families will work and stay there for the long term. A team that builds through FA is like a military town, where you have people who live there only for a short time before they leave and ship off to another location.

[ABSTRACT]

Santana Moss, Clinton Portis, London FLetcher, Casey Rabach, Randy Thomas, Deangelo Hall worked out. I don't have to name the ones that failed because many of you are familiar with them. It just so happens the ones that failed were over payed and old/oft-injured while the ones that were successful were moderately paid and relatively young (27-30). DHall, Portis, and Moss were young when we got them and they grew into the system.

The players that failed were old, over payed, and we implemented them wrong. Therefore, they stopped taking the game seriously and enjoyed the money. We took Jason Taylor and moved him to the other side of the defensive end position which he never played before. Took Albert and we switched to a 3-4 defense (Not Shanny's fault, Albert just "victim" to yet another much needed coaching change). Brandon Lloyd and Randle El could have been implemented much better because they are both talented. We just should have never picked them up because they did not fit our system. When Gibbs was here, we ran a run-based, bomb-it-down-the-field system but we had small West Coast Offense receivers. That's why the run was so successful but the passing game failed. Adam Archuletta was a poor evaluation job by Vinny and he was simply over rated/overpaid. Bruce Smith actually had some nice years here...not a big problem with that but we obviously paid too much for him. These early mistakes by Vinny and Dan were simply laughable and borderline retarded. Another early mistake was Deion Sanders lol...no need to explain everything wrong with that move....way too much to talk about on that one.

I say we have actually been 50/50 on mistakes in the front office acquisitions the past 10 years. However, the bad moves have been so idiotic that they cover up the good moves made like Portis, Fletcher, Rabach, etc. Dan has simply been to eager to push the button with his deep pockets and he has extremely limited football knowledge. Due to his idiotic football knowledge, we have not built both sides of the lines up. Another obvious reason many acquisitions have failed is because of his eagerness with switching coaches and philosophies. Cannot succeed in an unstable, ever-changing environment obviously. It's beating a dead-horse talking about this and I thnk everyone knows why we have failed....I'm just ready to move on.

However, these changing philosophies reflect cowardly moves to me and explain why we have been mediocre for the past decade. Despite this political, gossip-hungry, contradictory media we exist in in the DC area, we need to keep Shanahan and change this culture of inconsistency and mediocrity in D.C. football. Fortunately, many Redskins fans have been brain-washed by Dan Snyder and want to rid of a coach after 1 year as well because they are not used to real men who go into locker rooms and take order. Many fans will be unhappy when we get rid of guys like Cooley, Moss, Portis, Albert, etc. as well because these fans are comfortable with the status-quo mediocrity of 1999-2009 Redskins foootball. As long as Dan does the owner thing (some fans strangely want him to be hands-on again....sounds like their brain washed to me), we will be fine. I hope Mike is our coach for the next 15+ years....I guarantee we will have multiple chances at the superbowl if we can shut the hell up, let football people do football things instead of turning out organization into a "Days of our lives' soap opera, and let this grown man do his damn job. Hail to the Skins.

[earl]

well some may say that our FO failures are an anomoly. but those failures are so predictable and frequent that that obviously isn't the case. Here's my theory....

Championship teams are built. Players, identity and chemistry are developed over time. They cannot be bought. The Redskins have no checks and balances. Think about it Spurrier was hired and Dan said what do you need? Florida players and speed. here you go. Then Gibbs was hired. What do you need? Vet. QB, CP and super smart players, here you go. Zorn, big WR's. we'll get you 3. Shanny you want DMC5 and a slew of vet RB's. No problem.

We went from fun and gun to super smart and conservative to west coast offense, to ZBS and the 3-4. But because Snyder doesn't have a real GM to evalute talent regardless of scheme and a long term vision, the HC's all have too much control we are left w/ no identity. These coaches chase guys that they know will work in thier system but once the system fails we are left w/ no talent.

The way we acquire players and the ones we select are all superstar FA or hot shot draft picks. When is the last time the skins have produced a sleeper? or a late round pick that we developed into a star? Good teams have these non sexy starters all over thier roster. Good teams have a culture that grooms and produces these guys regularly. Not the redskins. (we had LB and let him go to the Giants, a Safety but let him go to the Steelers and Horton gets zero PT). We are too busy envying other teams sleepers.

Furthermore the constant turnover and win now attitude does not allow the organization to build an identity and chemistry. Look at the ravens and steelers. They have strong leadership on top that have a vision of what thier brand of football is and they draft, sign and hire accordingly. So despite coaching changes, personell changes and overall changes in schemes the teams still produce a certain brand of football that thier fans are familiar w/ and proud of. not the redskins.

The skins need a real gm. I was excited about Bruce Allen, but now i'm convinced he was only hired to secure shanny. I believe he is a shanny "yes man" who is very good at managing the cap. I believe no coach, deserves all the power that Snyder offers them (except for maybe billichik) and that is the problem. Snyder should hire a GM with a long term vision of who we are as a team, then let that GM hire a coach who he thinks can execute his vision. I don't believe thats what happened w/ shanny. i believe that snyder wanted shanny and knew BA would guarantee that. so if i'm right the hiring was ass backwards just like the Zorn hire. I may be wrong but i'll bet anything that BA's future is directly tied to that of shanny.

Snyder and Jerry Jones are always seen as two very aggressive "meddling" owners but Jones> Snyder because at least Jones as the GM has an overall vision for the cowboys and he expects his coaches to comply. Snyder and his GM have no vision so they just throw money and resources at thier head coach.

just my observations

[TheLongshot]

;8061030']Why Do The Majority Of Redskins FO Moves NOT Pan Out?

I think this is a false statement. The majority of Redskins FO moves HAVE panned out' date=' for the most part. We just focus on the high profile flameouts notice less the lunchpail guys who continue to do their jobs.

The facts remain clear however. What the FO is doing is NOT working. The majority of draft picks and FA signings are NOT working out. And the talent that IS in the house, is senselessly squandered due to one of any number of different reasons ranging from owner meddling to lack of coaching talent (i.e. Zorn).

Teams such as the Colts, Chargers, Saints, Pats, Jets, Giants, Eagles don't seem to have this problem. Those teams always seem to get the best out of every player, yet the NATION'S team, just wastes the time and emotion of one of the most die-hard fan bases in all of professional sport.

What do all of those teams have in common? Stability. Whenever you have coaching turnover, you also have player turnover. A player who was drafted for one coach may not fit in with another coach. Change the offensive system: new players. Change the defensive system: new players. Fact is, in the 4 years Gibbs was here we probably had the greatest stability in the roster that we had. If it weren't for 2006, this team probably would still be in pretty good shape.

[fjblair]

;8061030']That's my question for debate.

Why Do The Majority Of Redskins FO Moves NOT Pan Out?

My opinion:

The Redskins (in the Snyder era at least) have a reputation -- whatever it may be....

The facts remain clear however. What the FO is doing is NOT working. The majority of draft picks and FA signings are NOT working out. And the talent that IS in the house' date=' is senselessly squandered due to one of any number of different reasons ranging from owner meddling to lack of coaching talent (i.e. Zorn).

Teams such as the Colts, Chargers, Saints, Pats, Jets, Giants, Eagles don't seem to have this problem. Those teams always seem to get the best out of every player, yet the NATION'S team, just wastes the time and emotion of one of the most die-hard fan bases in all of professional sport.

It's sad really.[/quote']

Um, Danny?