The Official Washington Basketball Thread: Wizards, Mystics etc

[Rocky21]

20 point losses at home to a mediocre at best opponent who is playing it's sixth road game (and the second night of a back to back) makes it hard to be a fan of this team.:obvious:

[chipwhich]

King of the strawman argument: chipwich.

No one is advocating to go hire the entire Spurs front office. However, a change may not be a bad option when the current GM has proven to be incompetent in decision making year after year. And cut the bull**** about ownership forcing Ernie's hands. Abe on his death bed wasn't telling Ernie to go trade a top 5 lottery pick for Mike ****ing Miller. That was Ernie being a stupid idiot, something he's demonstrated season after season.

Trust me Ernie traded picks for $$$$ and he traded lotter picks for players as part of a win now and money saving approach. He absolutely wanted to win now for Abe, and Abe was always cheap.

Look we need a new GM, I don't disagree. Everyone clamors for GM's and players who would never be dumb enough to come here. It will take time to become a competent franchise, and more time to be able to land free agents and GM's who would never play here.

[Going Commando]

The answers I've been mulling over to my own questions:

1.) Personally, I'm not sure if I prefer an 8 or 10 man rotation for us. Eight would probably be ideal, but I don't think we've got the all around talent to pull it off. I think we need to attack our problems with a 10 man group and a skilled coach to get us into the right rotations and situations.

2.) I'm not sure I'm satisfied with any of Singleton, Vesely, or Booker as 30+ minutes per game players long term. Booker has value to an NBA franchise, but his limitations leave plenty of room for a potential star PF to come in and push him to the bench. Guys like Booker on the bench makes us a fairly deep and talented team.

One of Singleton or Vesely can probably become a starter next to a really good scoring PF. Vesely has the higher upside but much more raw tool box. It could be a situation where he's the guy who comes in off the bench and leads your second line once he develops. I hope he develops an offensive game in time, becomes a better passer, and adds strength. If he does all of that, he'll become a really, really good player. The hustle, rebounding, intelligence, and athletic gifts are all there.

If Singleton becomes an excellent 3 and D player then he's a valuable starter for most NBA teams. Need some sort of perimeter stopping on the front line. It's going to take a lot of time before he gets there though. That skillset is harder to develop than it seems no matter how smart you are.

That said, if you're going to get so little in the form of offense from your three, you've got to have really good scoring from the 2 and 4 spots, and some rebounding there too.

3.) I like Singleton as a potential starting 3 down the line, next to an elite scoring 2 and a good scoring and rebounding 4. That's an ideal group IMO--kind of what Memphis does with Tony Allen, Rudy Gay, and Zach Randolph if you flip the two and the three. In that situation, I like Vesely and Booker as the 6 and 7 men on a true contender down the line.

But absent that two guard and power forward, I don't like all three of them as our 6, 7, and 8 unless our starting forwards are really good scorers. Too little scoring off the bench, We'd have to go to ten man rotations because we at least need a backup PG and C in the rotation. If we can't find that kind of scoring, we need to trade at least one of Singleton, Booker, and Vesely--Singleton would probably be the odd man out for me.

4.) My ideal pieces for my ideal rotation built around Wall (dynamic scoring and passing PG) that are still to get:

A - quality backup PG to spell Wall and maybe even kick him off the ball a bit to get him some easy offensive looks and get him going from time to time. For now I'm fine with Mack in this role and probably fine with Crawford too if he can improve his passing and cut down on some of the really bad turnovers.

B - elite shooting off ball SG that can defend and rebound. I want a smarter, more efficient, and better all around player than NY to form a dynamic back court with Wall. This is one of the most important spots to get a really good player in for us because of the way our roster is currently constructed IMO.

C - top tier rebounding and scoring PF if we extend JaVale. Need to get the biggest talent available here because they have to cover for JaVale's shortcomings

D - If we don't extend JaVale, and take someone like Anthony Davis at PF, my ideal center would be a great defense and rebounding center. Don't know how we'd get one, but that would be my ideal

E - Also need a backup center with those same qualities. Maybe Seraphin becomes this player. I don't know. I think he's still got high defensive potential but he's always going to be somewhat limited by his height.

F - I'm fine with Vesely and Booker as energy men off the bench so long as they continue to develop offensively to the point where they become reliable offensive options. You should be able to get the ball to them within five feet of the rim and know they'e going to score over 50% of the time.

If we keep JaVale, the key acquisitions for my rotation would be the starting 2 and 4, by far the most difficult ones to get. I'm hoping we'll get the PF in this year's lotto in either Anthony Davis or Thomas Robinson. I'd even be happy with Sullinger I suppose.

The 2 guard is harder.

A Curry trade probably wouldn't be the end of the world.

Wouldn't mind Michael Kidd Gilchrist or this Shabazz Muhammed kid playing here either but that's a year away from even becoming an option.

I also really like Bradley Beal, he'd be good all around and has good intangibles, but I'd hesitate to call him a guy who'll fill it up on a regular basis.

Jeremy Lamb has good tools but he's not particularly efficient and has a little NY in him in that he's a bit one dimensional and enamored with his own scoring tools.

Austin Rivers commands the ball too much and is not a great off ball option IMO, plus he's a weak defender.

You can probably say the same about Eric Gordon, although he's a proven high quality scorer in the NBA. But he needs the ball in his hands a little more than I'd like for a John Wall team, and his height kind of takes away his ability to defend NBA 2s. Plus there is no telling if he'd actually sign here, and he's got an injury history.

I honestly don't know what we can do there.

[No Excuses]

Trust me Ernie traded picks for $$$$ and he traded lotter picks for players as part of a win now and money saving approach. He absolutely wanted to win now for Abe, and Abe was always cheap.

Look we need a new GM, I don't disagree. Everyone clamors for GM's and players who would never be dumb enough to come here. It will take time to become a competent franchise, and more time to be able to land free agents and GM's who would never play here.

This team has a piece to build around. John Wall is an elite talent in the NBA and should have the drawing power to attract free agents and good team managers.

Answer this honestly. Who in the last two years has Ernie brought in that can be a legitimate starter on a good NBA team?

[RonArtest15]

The fact we have our team captain CALLING out players for a lack of professionalism as well as Blatche getting boo'd, perfectly captures the culture "the best GM we've had in 30 years" has assembled here in DC.

SM, I'll get into your questions a little later on.

But I'm all on board for trying to move McGee to GS with the HOPES of getting Klay Thompson in return.

[chipwhich]

This team has a piece to build around. John Wall is an elite talent in the NBA and should have the drawing power to attract free agents and good team managers.

Answer this honestly. Who in the last two years has Ernie brought in that can be a legitimate starter on a good NBA team?

Ted wanted him to gut the team. Not sure how you blame our GM moves all on Ernie and think Ted had nothing to do with it.

[Gator Bait]

Oklahoma City drafted an all star. And it wasn't because they had a great GM.

OKC is what it is because Portland made yet again another stupid decision taking the big with injury problems over the wing.

[No Excuses]

Ted wanted him to gut the team. Not sure how you blame our GM moves all on Ernie and think Ted had nothing to do with it.

No, I have never said Ted had nothing to do with it.

But Ernie was told to gut the team, but that does not mean he needs to go out and bottom out the team to the point where we have the worst team in the HISTORY of our franchise.

[Gator Bait]

Ted wanted him to gut the team. Not sure how you blame our GM moves all on Ernie and think Ted had nothing to do with it.

Ernie does get a bad rap for the lotto pick for Miller/Foye....but I've heard lots of people say that was an Abe move and not an Ernie move. I've also heard it was Abe who demanded we re-sign Antawn and Gil to those huge contracts. I don't necessarily blame Ernie for all of this, but I agree with Warhead....we need to go out and get a young hungry GM who needs to make a name for himself.

If Ernie Grunfeld gets fired from the Wizards, he will have no problem finding a new job in the NBA because he has that name recognition...it isn't because he is a particularly good GM. NBA is the league of recycled coaches/GMs.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

LEAVE BLATCHE ALOOOOONE!!!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/wizards/wizards-vs-warriors-washington-falls-behind-early-as-golden-state-cruises-to-win-120-100/2012/03/05/gIQAPWQjtR_story_1.html

“It’s tough. You’re home and people that’s supposed to have your back don’t have your back. Instead of encouraging you to get better, they push you down and hope you do worse,” Blatche said. “At the long run, it’s not only hurting me, it’s hurting my teammates. That’s what I feel most upset about, because I can’t come out and perform, help my teammates because I’m letting the crowd get to my head, making me second guess, not letting me be the player that I am.”

God, it's all your faults he sucks.

---------- Post added March-6th-2012 at 12:27 PM ----------

Anyway, as I wanted to say last night before I got ****ing wrecked by ambien and pain pills: Imagine if Wall had the type of talent around him that Isiah did back in the day:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DET/1982.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DET/1983.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DET/1984.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DET/1985.html

God I hope we don't waste Wall. Be such a shame.

[Warhead36]

Wow Blatche has to be the most mentally soft player ever. He makes Kwame look like Kobe Bryant...

[Going Commando]

OKC is what it is because Portland made yet again another stupid decision taking the big with injury problems over the wing.

Good debate about this topic a little while back in the NBA thread.

The Oden over Durant pick was unfortunate but you can't say they made the wrong choice without hindsight. At the time, it was fine. Oden had been healthy and truly dominant at Ohio State and there was no real way to predict his injury problems since unless you got a hold of a secret, true birth certificate demonstrating Oden was actually born in 1963.

Also, Bowie over Jordan without the benefit of hindsight, would also happen every time. Bowie was dominant in college and Jordan wasn't Jordan at UNC. He wasn't really a star there in that system, I think he only averaged like 15 or 16 PPG during his career. Plus Portland had just drafted Clyde Drexler in the previous draft so they did already have a future HoFer at SG FWIW.

Portland is just snakebit, you can't really fault their decision making real time. But I will say, to have both Oden AND Roy go out with injuries like they have and to still be as good as they are today--that in and of itself is remarkable. They've got a good franchise. At least LaMarcus Aldridge worked out.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Jordan was absolutely a star at UNC.

[SkinInsite]

Maybe if Jordan came out after his Freshmen year you'd have an argument of him vs Bowie. But when you had three years of HIGH level college play there's no way you make the Bowie pick.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

"Can't miss" "In the mold of Dr. J"

Oh and nice statch Stern, you ****ing creep.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and he was College Player of the Year coming out. Edited March 6, 2012 by G.A.C.O.L.B.

[MonkFan8]

I'll readily admit I still like Andray. I think if he ever got his head on straight he could be a very good player.

That said, if a guy gets shot as a rookie and still plays with the same blase attitude as Blatche does and doesn't seem to care about getting into great shape, it's highly doubtful he ever will. You'd think nearly having your entire career taken away from you before it even starts would motivate the guy, I guess not.

Put the ****ing fans out of your mind and play smart basketball. Be a professional.

[Going Commando]

Jordan was absolutely a star at UNC.

No he wasn't. UNC never really had individual stars with Dean Smith. It was a rigid, team oriented system that didn't really allow for individual stardom.

There was a time when Jordan was really the third wheel behind James Worthy and Sam Perkins when you think about it.

Look at the way guys like Ewing and Sleepy Floyd, Olajuwan, and Drexler with Phi Slama Jama were celebrated in college. Jordan wasn't like that.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

He was college player of the year. If that's not a star, I don't know what is.

Edited March 6, 2012 by G.A.C.O.L.B.

[Going Commando]

He was college player of the year. If that's not a star, I don't know what is.

Oh, he was a great player for sure. But he wasn't the head line writing stat monster he became in the NBA. His wasn't the dominant personality in that system. It was always Dean Smith and the Tarheels team. Perkins and Worthy drew attention away from Jordan, and if anything, Patrick Ewing was the real star of college basketball and the franchise saving messiah that caused the comissioner to rig the lottery to save basketball in New York.

Jordan wasn't Jordan yet. You can't approach the Bowie over Jordan decision thinking about Jordan as the GOAT because there is no way anyone could have predicted just how good Jordan was going to become based off of his college career.

Phi Slama Jama was a cultural phenomenon that spread even beyond basketball. Those guys were stars.

Winning POTY doesn't necessarily mean stardom. Evan Turner was a great college player and won player of the year, but was he really a star? Not like Wall and the Kentucky class was.

Edited March 6, 2012 by stevemcqueen1

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Someone old please come in here and settle this. Thanks.

[Rocky21]

I agree with SteveMcQueen. Jordan wasn't Jordan at UNC.

Bowie over Jordan only looks crazy now. It certainly didn't at the time. Same with Oden / Durant.

Edit: BTW I'm pretty ****ing old. :-)

Edited March 6, 2012 by Rocky21

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

I'm not saying Jordan was Jordan at UNC. Of course Jordan wasn't the GOAT at that time. This was the statement I disagreed with:

He wasn't really a star there in that system

Edited March 6, 2012 by G.A.C.O.L.B.

[RonArtest15]

Presti is brilliant and a phenomally good GM. One transcendent talent does not a contender make. Otherwise we would actually be good.

---------- Post added March-6th-2012 at 08:45 AM ----------

Also Presti was in charge in Seattle when they drafted Durant. He's not the reason they were able to get Presti.

We need to be hiring someone out of San Antonio's front office to replace Ernie.

---------- Post added March-6th-2012 at 08:55 AM ----------

Questions:

1.) Do you all prefer an 8 man rotation or 10 man rotation?

2.) Are you satisfied with Vesely, Singleton, or Booker as our potential long term starting solutions at the 3 and 4?

3.) If not, are Vesely, Singleton, and Booker eventually becoming the 6, 7, and 8 men in a title contending rotation?

4.) Generally and realistically speaking, what would your ideal pieces for your rotation look like (not looking for a team full of Kobes, LeBrons, and Dwights)?

I want to get a sense of how everyone sees our team building situation right now, where they'd like it to go, and how they think it best to get there.

1) 8 man rotation FOR NOW. Just put guys out there that will A) respect the game and give you 110%. Give me the 10 man rotation when there is a complete roster overhaul and we get some guys in here that can match Wall's intensity/heart.

2) None of the guys you mentioned stand out as starters...this team can use an upgrade at every position besides the 1.

3) Booker, yes...he's in that 8 man rotation and is a player who SHOULD be here with Wall going forward. That's not to say he's off the table via trade...but aside from Wall, he's a guy who most good teams would love to have on the roster. Vesely, moreso than singleton should be in that 10 man rotation. Not so much in the 8 man (as of now), because he's too raw. You can see that he has a high b-ball IQ, but there are more holes in his game than anyone else on this roster not named Seraphin. Singleton, just looks lost. We see flashes of his defensive awareness, but it's not with regularity. He could have benefitted from some time in the d-league, IMO. His confidence looks shot right now.

4) For the rotation, my ideal situation would be something like this:

Scenario 1:

Starters

Anthony Davis

Ersan Ilyasova (via FA)

Wilson Chandler

Klay Thompson (via McGee trade)

John Wall

Bench:

Booker

Udoh

Crawford

Vesely

Turiaf

Mack

Harkless

Scenario 2:

Starters

McGee (if he's retained)

Robinson

Delfino

Gordon (RFA)

Wall

Bench:

Booker

Seraphin

Crawford

Vesely

Turiaf

Mack

Harkless

Dream Scenario

McGee

Robinson

Chandler

R. Allen

Wall

Bench

Booker

Delfino

Crawford

Vesely

Turiaf

Mack

Harkless

*I didn't include Singleton, because I'm going to assume he's going to be a tradable asset to a possible suitor.

Edited March 6, 2012 by RonArtest15

[Gator Bait]

Good debate about this topic a little while back in the NBA thread.

The Oden over Durant pick was unfortunate but you can't say they made the wrong choice without hindsight. At the time, it was fine. Oden had been healthy and truly dominant at Ohio State and there was no real way to predict his injury problems since unless you got a hold of a secret, true birth certificate demonstrating Oden was actually born in 1963.

Also, Bowie over Jordan without the benefit of hindsight, would also happen every time. Bowie was dominant in college and Jordan wasn't Jordan at UNC. He wasn't really a star there in that system, I think he only averaged like 15 or 16 PPG during his career. Plus Portland had just drafted Clyde Drexler in the previous draft so they did already have a future HoFer at SG FWIW.

Portland is just snakebit, you can't really fault their decision making real time. But I will say, to have both Oden AND Roy go out with injuries like they have and to still be as good as they are today--that in and of itself is remarkable. They've got a good franchise. At least LaMarcus Aldridge worked out.

Oden was actually a bad idea all along. Once of his legs is freakishly longer than the other one which helped lead to all his injuries.

[Gator Bait]

speaking about Greg Oden coming out of College. Meanwhile....Durant was already a monster scorer in college.

Dane Carbaugh of hoopdoctors.com says that it is physically impossible for a seven- footer with one leg shorter than the other to play basketball at a high level and sustain that level over multiple seasons. That has to play a factor into this.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Gator Bait